Plane Landed short at Heathrow

[BonzoGuinness]

RobM77 said:

Munter said:

RobM77 said:

Ah. So this footage doesn't show up anything new or interesting about the incident?

Not really. Unless there was some procedure slip up (I wouldn't know if there was). It's nothing to get too excited about.

Thanks. I'm sure it'll make interesting listening though.

It's interesting just to hear the controllers keep a cool head, and keep things flowing whilst the st hits the fan. The pilot gets his callsign wrong in the mayday but I think you can forgive him that, given what's just happened

[RobM77]

BonzoGuinness said:

RobM77 said:

Munter said:

RobM77 said:

Ah. So this footage doesn't show up anything new or interesting about the incident?

Not really. Unless there was some procedure slip up (I wouldn't know if there was). It's nothing to get too excited about.

Thanks. I'm sure it'll make interesting listening though.

It's interesting just to hear the controllers keep a cool head, and keep things flowing whilst the st hits the fan. The pilot gets his callsign wrong in the mayday but I think you can forgive him that, given what's just happened

I've heard a few of those calls on TV before (Air Crash Investigation), and I've been hugely impressed by how calm the people are.

[sneijder]

This audio / animation from the Hudson is good :

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/11/13/33...

Widescreen, HD and sound up.

I love how ATC are trying to divert as the fish swim around their ankles.

[john_p]

I found it quite interesting, you can just imagine the ststorm setting off once the controller says "Aircraft Accident".

[pikey]

How did those passengers who attempted to sue get on?

[tribbles]

pikey said:

How did those passengers who attempted to sue get on?

Probably walked on, like everyone else.

[beakr]

pikey said:

How did those passengers who attempted to sue get on?

It's still going on from what I understand, one of the passengers is the chairman of where I work.

[RDE]

jonnyb said:

I think what your hearing is the microphone on the controllers head set, its a hot mike.

No, controllers don't have 'hot' mics. Neither is it a CVR excerpt when you hear the Captain transmit an evacuation order - he mentions on his website that he didn't flick the switch to public address, so when he hits the transmit switch, it goes out on the frequency.

What you hear is the frequency for arrivals and the controller's telephone lines, so everything that would have been going through his headset. The weird noise just after the Mayday is most likely feedback from the crash line, as it connects a lot of lines together so that they all hear the same message (airport fire and rescue, external fire service, ambulance, police etc).

The second phone call is to Heathrow Final Director (i think) to stop them vectoring aircraft onto the approach path. The third is to the departure radar controller, to tell him to expect the two missed approaches.

What you can see is called RIMCAS (Runway Incursion Monitoring and Conflict Alert System). It's a radar picture of the airfield showing vehicle and aircraft returns. Unfortunately the quality is so poor you can't make out the text, but on the original version you could see the aircraft callsigns following the aircraft around. You also see the contacts turn red when it detects that the Qatari is (as far as the system knows) about to land on top of the Speedbird. If you want a detailed plan of Heathrow there's one here: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGLL/...

The recording shows everyone involved in a very good light I think, and should be encouraging to any UK air passenger. Having had experience of far less dire emergencies than a crash, I was impressed with how calm the controller stayed when it all went pear-shaped.

ETA: That's not to say I was unimpressed with how staggeringly quick the response from the Fire and Rescue Service was, or indeed the flying skills of the crew to rescue the thing from disaster.

Edited by RDE on Friday 11th December 17:33

[Beyond Rational]

pikey said:

How did those passengers who attempted to sue get on?

I read this on wikipedia about flight 1549, could this apply to this case?

"The passengers on the aircraft each received a letter of apology, $5,000 in compensation for lost baggage, or $5000 more if passengers can demonstrate more than $5000 in losses, and a refund of the ticket price.[91][92] Beginning in May, 2009, passengers received their baggage and other belongings. In addition, passengers reported they were offered $10,000 each not to sue US Airways for damages by American International Group (AIG), the airline's insurance carrier,[93] although AIG thus far has not been paying additional claims, even for documented medical claims, citing a lack of negligence and hence no liability according to aviation law."

[NDA]

tribbles said:

pikey said:

How did those passengers who attempted to sue get on?

Probably walked on, like everyone else.

Love your work here.

[RDE]

rocksteadyeddie said:

Very interesting. I was particularly impressed with the controller saying "problem is crash". I shall remember that next time I have a shunt!

It may be that he's making the broadcast without reference to an emergency snatch card (used to make sure the fire service receive all the required information). Most of the cards (for different emergencies) include 'nature of problem' at some stage, but for an accident this isn't required as the problem is self-evident.

[paddyhasneeds]

How in fks name do flight-crew keep so calm?

[fflyingdog]

You also have to remember that they also saving their own a@@es,the majority of crew i fly with are very professional and do know what they are doing ,however there are the few that don't inspire much confidence in the unlikely event that something goes tits up ! Flying is 90% doing mundane stuff (position reports etc) 10% manic landings /take offs ,alot of stuff i can fix in the air.So all you flying public sleep easy............

[Occam's Razor]

Interesting that the mayday transmission by the pilot contained the incorrect callsign - I wonder where BAW95 came from, rather than 38?

Also interesting that the controller asked BAW479 to make a "visual switch" to 27R, rather than sending it around like the QTR - then when phoning the departure radar controller he changes his plan and sends the 479 around anyway.

[JW911]

Occam's Razor said:

I wonder where BAW95 came from, rather than 38?

Also interesting that the controller asked BAW479 to make a "visual switch" to 27R, rather than sending it around like the QTR - then when phoning the departure radar controller he changes his plan and sends the 479 around anyway.

I believe the skipper was a bit busy at the time. I think we can forgive him that.

You'd have to ask the controller to be fair, but he probably considered the BA479 to be far enough out to switch to the other runway. You can't do it too close in. My own limit at LHR is about 1500'. Given that 27R would have been in use for departures it may have subsequently become apparent that the BA479 wouldn't have space so he was sent around anyway. Better to try and get him in than send him around unnecessarily and either way, a go-around is always a safe option.

[eharding]

JW911 said:

My own limit at LHR is about 1500'.

You've mellowed since you moved from Gatwick.

Back in the day, faced with 26L becoming unexpectedly unavailable - you'd have been under the air-bridge - inverted - like greased weasle doo, push a 1/2 outside loop, roll upright, pull hard right, and then do one of those Bonhomme 45-degree glideslope approaches they teach you to the 26R taxiway, just in time to come to a halt and order a smoked-kipper breakfast.

[RDE]

JW911 said:

Occam's Razor said:

I wonder where BAW95 came from, rather than 38?

Also interesting that the controller asked BAW479 to make a "visual switch" to 27R, rather than sending it around like the QTR - then when phoning the departure radar controller he changes his plan and sends the 479 around anyway.

I believe the skipper was a bit busy at the time. I think we can forgive him that.

You'd have to ask the controller to be fair, but he probably considered the BA479 to be far enough out to switch to the other runway. You can't do it too close in. My own limit at LHR is about 1500'. Given that 27R would have been in use for departures it may have subsequently become apparent that the BA479 wouldn't have space so he was sent around anyway. Better to try and get him in than send him around unnecessarily and either way, a go-around is always a safe option.

You can see when the control bar moves down that an aircraft on the departure runway has been stopped and is taxiing off the runway to allow inbounds. It may be that they considered the category of fire cover and sent BAW479 around while they clarified it - You have to consider the ability of the fire service to deal with another accident before you allow further movements. No idea, but just illustrating that there are a few possible reasons. As said, probably more likely that the view out of the window showed that the aircraft wasn't going to be able to switch in time.

As for the callsign confusion, I heard from another BA pilot that they use that callsign in the simulator, so would have been used to following a Mayday with that callsign. However, this has been debunked by the pilot on his own website, stating that BA uses a variety of callsigns to prevent just that sort of thing. http://www.peterburkill.com/blog.html

He says it was actually the flight number of his next trip (LHR to Montreal I think).

Edited by RDE on Sunday 13th December 01:26

[Occam's Razor]

Perhaps I didn't word my post very well - I meant to say that I was surprised the controller didn't send 479 around as the first course of action, rather than attempt to switch to 27R.

By no means a criticism - I'm still learning!

[JW911]

No problem, Razor.

RDE said:

He says it was actually the flight number of his next trip (LHR to Montreal I think).

Ironically, last time I flew with PB was to Montreal several years ago!

Edited by JW911 on Sunday 13th December 17:10

[diesel head]

Wow that was fascinating to listen to, and although I was really impressed with how calm everyone was, I could hear the shock in the ATC's voice as time went on, but kudos to everyone involved!