Aircraft and turning off your 'electronic devices'
Discussion
IforB said:
Since none of you here (except me) have ever held a phone next to the ILS/VOR aerial and seen the effect, then I respectfully ask you to simply do as you are asked.
Whether electronics are shielded or not is irrelevant, the simple fact is that there is a risk and aviation safety is all about minimising risk as much as possible. So turn the stuff off, it's only a few minutes out of your life.
Do you get the same problems with interference via your headsets (from mobile roaming) which is multiplied during transmission when using VHF? Even backing the squelch sometimes fails to get rid of it, particularly in a busy VFR circuit - drives you mental.Whether electronics are shielded or not is irrelevant, the simple fact is that there is a risk and aviation safety is all about minimising risk as much as possible. So turn the stuff off, it's only a few minutes out of your life.
Edited by IforB on Saturday 21st February 19:35
The other reason, particularly during take off/landing is that PAX need to be able to hear instructions and not be distracted although those that are too cool for school and have ignored the safety briefing are a liability anyway.
JCW said:
IforB said:
Since none of you here (except me) have ever held a phone next to the ILS/VOR aerial and seen the effect, then I respectfully ask you to simply do as you are asked.
Whether electronics are shielded or not is irrelevant, the simple fact is that there is a risk and aviation safety is all about minimising risk as much as possible. So turn the stuff off, it's only a few minutes out of your life.
Do you get the same problems with interference via your headsets (from mobile roaming) which is multiplied during transmission when using VHF? Even backing the squelch sometimes fails to get rid of it, particularly in a busy VFR circuit - drives you mental.Whether electronics are shielded or not is irrelevant, the simple fact is that there is a risk and aviation safety is all about minimising risk as much as possible. So turn the stuff off, it's only a few minutes out of your life.
Edited by IforB on Saturday 21st February 19:35
The other reason, particularly during take off/landing is that PAX need to be able to hear instructions and not be distracted although those that are too cool for school and have ignored the safety briefing are a liability anyway.
From BG's link.
A charge will also be levied to receive a call, but not a text message, and the service will only be switched on above 10,000ft (3,000m).
For this system from RYR.
I think this graphic helps:
As you can see, the problem is solved by having an enormous 40-foot high mobile phone fly in close formation with the airliner - passengers can conveniently place calls by shouting out of the window a the giant phone, which then forwards the call by RDL (Red Dotted Line) to a satellite. Fantastic bit of technology.
I've never tried the trick of placing a phone next to the ILS/VOR antenna, mostly because neither of the aircraft I part-own are fitted with such wizardry - although, amusingly, in the Pitts if you turn on a mobile phone and move the stick from the back right to the front left, the wet compass swings about 30 degrees. However, it also does it if you don't turn on a mobile phone, so maybe not the best example.
There is a CAA research paper detailing the observed effects on various bits of nav and comms kit of worst-case mobile phone signal levels and the results aren't pretty, but we've been round this topic so many times I'm bored of finding the link.
All that aside, in most things I've flown having an active mobile phone on board will result in annoying chirping over the radio/intercom. I've annoyed the tits off myself before by leaving my phone on when it's been stuffed into my kit bag in the turtle-deck locker in the Pitts on a transit; - even though it was only 6 inches behind my head, there is no way in Hell you can get at it, the Pitts redefining the term "snug".
But therein lies the point of banning mobile comms on commercial aircraft before the advent of onboard micro base stations to keep the transmission power levels under control; the effects on the comms or the ILS needles of a few dozen mobiles at high power in the back of an airliner would mostly be an annoying distraction; but classic catastrophic commercial aviation accidents can generally be seen as a few small but significant events, often involving crew distraction, occurring in a sequence which eventually ends with horrific results.
It can still happen on the flight deck: a number of the airline drivers I know will admit to having at some stage a forgotten live phone on the flight deck, and much embarrassment ensues when it starts chirping - but that's a simple problem to solve, only 2 or 3 possible culprits. More difficult to solve if you had include the 300 punters down the back. That being said, in embarrassment terms, that's nothing to a mate of mine who used to be a 777 First Officer for an airline with a company callsign of "SpudBud"; when a much delayed start up and push back finally got underway, he placed the copy of "Nuts" magazine he'd been studying during the delay on the floor of the flight deck behind the center console. Sadly, as the floor tilted during the climb-out, said copy of "Nuts" promptly slid straight back down the flight-deck floor, under the door and into the First Class cabin - made it as far as row 3, I understand. Caused a bit of a stir with the punters. My mate is no longer a 777 FO - they've given him command on an Airbus, and cancelled his subscription to "Nuts".
As you can see, the problem is solved by having an enormous 40-foot high mobile phone fly in close formation with the airliner - passengers can conveniently place calls by shouting out of the window a the giant phone, which then forwards the call by RDL (Red Dotted Line) to a satellite. Fantastic bit of technology.
I've never tried the trick of placing a phone next to the ILS/VOR antenna, mostly because neither of the aircraft I part-own are fitted with such wizardry - although, amusingly, in the Pitts if you turn on a mobile phone and move the stick from the back right to the front left, the wet compass swings about 30 degrees. However, it also does it if you don't turn on a mobile phone, so maybe not the best example.
There is a CAA research paper detailing the observed effects on various bits of nav and comms kit of worst-case mobile phone signal levels and the results aren't pretty, but we've been round this topic so many times I'm bored of finding the link.
All that aside, in most things I've flown having an active mobile phone on board will result in annoying chirping over the radio/intercom. I've annoyed the tits off myself before by leaving my phone on when it's been stuffed into my kit bag in the turtle-deck locker in the Pitts on a transit; - even though it was only 6 inches behind my head, there is no way in Hell you can get at it, the Pitts redefining the term "snug".
But therein lies the point of banning mobile comms on commercial aircraft before the advent of onboard micro base stations to keep the transmission power levels under control; the effects on the comms or the ILS needles of a few dozen mobiles at high power in the back of an airliner would mostly be an annoying distraction; but classic catastrophic commercial aviation accidents can generally be seen as a few small but significant events, often involving crew distraction, occurring in a sequence which eventually ends with horrific results.
It can still happen on the flight deck: a number of the airline drivers I know will admit to having at some stage a forgotten live phone on the flight deck, and much embarrassment ensues when it starts chirping - but that's a simple problem to solve, only 2 or 3 possible culprits. More difficult to solve if you had include the 300 punters down the back. That being said, in embarrassment terms, that's nothing to a mate of mine who used to be a 777 First Officer for an airline with a company callsign of "SpudBud"; when a much delayed start up and push back finally got underway, he placed the copy of "Nuts" magazine he'd been studying during the delay on the floor of the flight deck behind the center console. Sadly, as the floor tilted during the climb-out, said copy of "Nuts" promptly slid straight back down the flight-deck floor, under the door and into the First Class cabin - made it as far as row 3, I understand. Caused a bit of a stir with the punters. My mate is no longer a 777 FO - they've given him command on an Airbus, and cancelled his subscription to "Nuts".
If it was a serious issue they would make everyone pack their mobiles into the hold baggage, and scan the cabin for active phones. A mobile is a fairly tiny transmitter (2W) it would need to be pretty much right next to any electrical equipment to interfere with it as signal strength drops off to the square of distance.
Talksteer said:
If it was a serious issue they would make everyone pack their mobiles into the hold baggage, and scan the cabin for active phones. A mobile is a fairly tiny transmitter (2W) it would need to be pretty much right next to any electrical equipment to interfere with it as signal strength drops off to the square of distance.
So how do signals travel many miles to a base station?I tell you what, how about you volunteer for a trial where you are the only passenger onboard an aircraft making a fully coupled automatic ILS approach with a phone going next to the receiver.
Fancy that?
Mythbusters carried out an experiment to see if a phone could interfere with avionics equipment... and failed miserably, even when using many times the power of a cellphone and the most disruptive frequency.
Heck if your TV aerial cable and hifi cables are shielded, then perhaps the wires in a plane might be
Heck if your TV aerial cable and hifi cables are shielded, then perhaps the wires in a plane might be
AdamD said:
Mythbusters carried out an experiment to see if a phone could interfere with avionics equipment...
It *is* deja-vu, all over again.
It can, and *does* happen. Trust me. What some spaced-out bunch of druggies did, or did not, observe as part of some kindergarten pop-science docu-trash targeted at career feckwits is of no consequence.
Hello,
I am a pilot. Jeeze, it feels good to finally come out and admit it. Anyway I have just registered tonight because I saw this thread and realised that some dangerous information was being posted. Once upon a time I accidentally left my mobile phone during a flight and when we were on final approach I had to ask Tower to repeat landing information because my phone chose that moment to report its status and position to the nearest cell. When listening on a radio, it sounds like "did di-didee did-di-didee did-di-didee."
You see, mobile phones and other networking equipment likes to transmit occasionally to tell other equipment within range that it is here...
Now, those of you who are 10-50 metres behind the cockpit - do you think that flimsy door will block your signals?
Please, when they tell you to turn off the electronics, then please do. Unless you're absolutely sure that your gadget doesn't transmit(for example you are on the design team) then please don't take the chance...
Best regards,
Jason
I am a pilot. Jeeze, it feels good to finally come out and admit it. Anyway I have just registered tonight because I saw this thread and realised that some dangerous information was being posted. Once upon a time I accidentally left my mobile phone during a flight and when we were on final approach I had to ask Tower to repeat landing information because my phone chose that moment to report its status and position to the nearest cell. When listening on a radio, it sounds like "did di-didee did-di-didee did-di-didee."
You see, mobile phones and other networking equipment likes to transmit occasionally to tell other equipment within range that it is here...
Now, those of you who are 10-50 metres behind the cockpit - do you think that flimsy door will block your signals?
Please, when they tell you to turn off the electronics, then please do. Unless you're absolutely sure that your gadget doesn't transmit(for example you are on the design team) then please don't take the chance...
Best regards,
Jason
Being one of the two muppets up the front myself. I can confirm that you can ring and order a Chinese for the entire crew whilst on the approach, though that is on a nice clear night in a manky old turboprop with the only bit of "fly by wire" being the paperclip holding the Captain's trousers up..............
I wouldn't want to try that in anything designed by Airbus though.
I wouldn't want to try that in anything designed by Airbus though.
Captain Smirk said:
You lads just talk amongst yourselves. I just need to go get something from my car...
yes dad - er I mean captain.Seriously as a pilot did you read the thing about ryanair? You think all those folks will remember to turn off their phones below 10k ft before they start reaching out to base stations? Doubtful.
Edited by R4PID on Saturday 21st February 22:58
JW911 said:
Ed,
Have you been drinking?
Must confess to leaving mine on once or twice accidentally. I presume I'm one of the "two muppets at the front".
Still here.
Obviously, I was referring to our Large Simian Friend when recounting the "Nuts" event - obviously, if I was referring to you, I'd have mentioned being posted to the SpudBud Historic Memorial Steam Instrument 737 Flight before the Airbus gig...Have you been drinking?
Must confess to leaving mine on once or twice accidentally. I presume I'm one of the "two muppets at the front".
Still here.
As for drinking, damn yes. We have a mandatory all-day all-hands at the office tomorrow (Sunday) so a) I'm making damn sure I have a grumpy hangover and b) I hope the weather is sh!t, because if I'm not flying then I don't see why anyone else should be having a good time. Happily, today was fantastic, much avalanche action in the Yak.
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff