Pilot training (commercial)
Discussion
I know there are a few professional pilots on here and I would like to pick your brains a bit. I am considering re-training as I am getting a bit tired of my current career choice. I am aware of the costs of zero-frozen ATPL licences, I would probably be funding that part myself, my main questions are regarding what happens after that.
What is the job market like and how fast is career progression? particularly as I would be in my early thirties competing with candidates up to ten years younger. I am also aware that entry level jobs are not particularly well paid, but long term, is there still a good living to be made? (I am already on a good wage, and would mainly be doing this as it is something I have always fancied, rather than for the money).
I imagine that there is a lot of paperwork and constant assessment/revalidation required, is it worth the hassle? do you enjoy your jobs or are you as frustrated as the rest of us?
I am currently NT taxed, obviously this depends on which routes you're flying, but are you liable for UK tax contributions? (not a deal-breaker, but would be nice to stay NT!). How much time on/off do you work? I'm assuming (like myself) hours of work/rest have to be recorded and adhered to.
Finally, on a more personal note, would you do it all again? and would you encourage your kids to do it?
I appreciate that there are a few questions there, but any help would be gratefully received.
Cheers
Liam
What is the job market like and how fast is career progression? particularly as I would be in my early thirties competing with candidates up to ten years younger. I am also aware that entry level jobs are not particularly well paid, but long term, is there still a good living to be made? (I am already on a good wage, and would mainly be doing this as it is something I have always fancied, rather than for the money).
I imagine that there is a lot of paperwork and constant assessment/revalidation required, is it worth the hassle? do you enjoy your jobs or are you as frustrated as the rest of us?
I am currently NT taxed, obviously this depends on which routes you're flying, but are you liable for UK tax contributions? (not a deal-breaker, but would be nice to stay NT!). How much time on/off do you work? I'm assuming (like myself) hours of work/rest have to be recorded and adhered to.
Finally, on a more personal note, would you do it all again? and would you encourage your kids to do it?
I appreciate that there are a few questions there, but any help would be gratefully received.
Cheers
Liam
I'm not a pilot so no help there but I did meet a BA Pilot who had been with them for 16 years but he'd left and got a job as a Tube Driver.
I kid you not and he reckoned that the pay and the work conditions were better.
Mind you, I have seen Mile High on Sky and those pilots always get the best looking stewardesses.
BTW try posting this on boxa.net as one of the guys on there has just got his licence and has just started flying out of Hong Kong.
I kid you not and he reckoned that the pay and the work conditions were better.
Mind you, I have seen Mile High on Sky and those pilots always get the best looking stewardesses.
BTW try posting this on boxa.net as one of the guys on there has just got his licence and has just started flying out of Hong Kong.
I've been a commercial pilot for 10 years and to be honest, the job market at the moment is a bloody mess.
When you finish your frozen ATPL, budget for a type rating as well. Unfortunately, that seems to be the way inexperienced people are getting jobs today, they are paying for them.
I love flying, but if I had my time over and I was looking at training now, I don't think I'd bother.
When you finish your frozen ATPL, budget for a type rating as well. Unfortunately, that seems to be the way inexperienced people are getting jobs today, they are paying for them.
I love flying, but if I had my time over and I was looking at training now, I don't think I'd bother.
Right i wasn't going to reply but then I seen the other two replys.
I very recently qualified as a commercial Pilot. Everyone I trained with has gotten a job. I haven't because I haven't applied as I haven't done my mcc course yet. Yes they all had to pay for their type ratings. I've heard all the people saying that people should not have to "buy" a job and ten years ago it was different etc. Well I don't care. Times change so change with it. 9/11 happened and a lot of airlines in america collapsed. Airlines no longer offered cadetships and people have to pay for their type ratings. It has cost me a lot off money to get to where I am now and I still have a bit to go towards getting a job. But I don't care. Already I've seen and done some great stuff that I couldn't even dream about sitting in some office. And I'm sure i'll do much more. I intend to join an airline now. But as soon as I have my loan paid off or am more financially secure I intend to leave the airlines and return to smaller planes so I don't get bored.
So I say go for it. Now is a great time to learn. When you have finished the recession should be over or starting to end anyways so there will be jobs.
I very recently qualified as a commercial Pilot. Everyone I trained with has gotten a job. I haven't because I haven't applied as I haven't done my mcc course yet. Yes they all had to pay for their type ratings. I've heard all the people saying that people should not have to "buy" a job and ten years ago it was different etc. Well I don't care. Times change so change with it. 9/11 happened and a lot of airlines in america collapsed. Airlines no longer offered cadetships and people have to pay for their type ratings. It has cost me a lot off money to get to where I am now and I still have a bit to go towards getting a job. But I don't care. Already I've seen and done some great stuff that I couldn't even dream about sitting in some office. And I'm sure i'll do much more. I intend to join an airline now. But as soon as I have my loan paid off or am more financially secure I intend to leave the airlines and return to smaller planes so I don't get bored.
So I say go for it. Now is a great time to learn. When you have finished the recession should be over or starting to end anyways so there will be jobs.
I'm not a commercial pilot - I have to slave away at a desk to generate cash I can then devote to the type of flying I enjoy - aerobatics, mainly.
I know a *lot* of commercial pilots that slave away in an Airbus or Boeing to generate cash that they can then devote to type of flying they enjoy - aerobatics, mainly.
They work brutally demanding hours, seemingly designed to make the body clock simply give up, deal with airport facilities around the world which at best are creations of Jim Henson, all the time being measured on timing and fuel efficiency performance, regardless of how badly the anonymous muppets conspire to screw up their day, and have regularly to deal with various types of scum kicking off in the cabin. The flying is generally the easy part.
I, on the other hand, work in an office in Slough.....and as I regularly point out to tired, grumpy airline flight crew dropping into the flying club on the way home, there is always the Slough option. I've yet to be punched in the mouth.
I think you'd have to love flying enough that you would recognise that a very crappy day on the flight deck is better than a very good day in an office, and you would be doing it so you can fly the more exciting stuff when your roster allows. If you just fancy a change of job simply because it sounds like you'd get to visit more foreign places, more quickly, then - even if the job market for newly minted ATPLs wasn't such a disaster at the moment, then I think ultimately you would wish you hadn't bothered (and spent the £80K it takes to find that out)
Had I known, at your age, that the option to fly commercially was still open, then I would have jumped at it...it took another few years for me to start flying, and by then it was too late. Life is short - ideally you should spend most of it doing things you ultimately enjoy and get paid for it, but don't try to prevaricate on what those things are - that's my advice.
Regardless, the Wanabees forums on www.pprune.org might a good place for further research.
I know a *lot* of commercial pilots that slave away in an Airbus or Boeing to generate cash that they can then devote to type of flying they enjoy - aerobatics, mainly.
They work brutally demanding hours, seemingly designed to make the body clock simply give up, deal with airport facilities around the world which at best are creations of Jim Henson, all the time being measured on timing and fuel efficiency performance, regardless of how badly the anonymous muppets conspire to screw up their day, and have regularly to deal with various types of scum kicking off in the cabin. The flying is generally the easy part.
I, on the other hand, work in an office in Slough.....and as I regularly point out to tired, grumpy airline flight crew dropping into the flying club on the way home, there is always the Slough option. I've yet to be punched in the mouth.
I think you'd have to love flying enough that you would recognise that a very crappy day on the flight deck is better than a very good day in an office, and you would be doing it so you can fly the more exciting stuff when your roster allows. If you just fancy a change of job simply because it sounds like you'd get to visit more foreign places, more quickly, then - even if the job market for newly minted ATPLs wasn't such a disaster at the moment, then I think ultimately you would wish you hadn't bothered (and spent the £80K it takes to find that out)
Had I known, at your age, that the option to fly commercially was still open, then I would have jumped at it...it took another few years for me to start flying, and by then it was too late. Life is short - ideally you should spend most of it doing things you ultimately enjoy and get paid for it, but don't try to prevaricate on what those things are - that's my advice.
Regardless, the Wanabees forums on www.pprune.org might a good place for further research.
kicks said:
Right i wasn't going to reply but then I seen the other two replys.
I very recently qualified as a commercial Pilot. Everyone I trained with has gotten a job. I haven't because I haven't applied as I haven't done my mcc course yet. Yes they all had to pay for their type ratings. I've heard all the people saying that people should not have to "buy" a job and ten years ago it was different etc. Well I don't care. Times change so change with it. 9/11 happened and a lot of airlines in america collapsed. Airlines no longer offered cadetships and people have to pay for their type ratings. It has cost me a lot off money to get to where I am now and I still have a bit to go towards getting a job. But I don't care. Already I've seen and done some great stuff that I couldn't even dream about sitting in some office. And I'm sure i'll do much more. I intend to join an airline now. But as soon as I have my loan paid off or am more financially secure I intend to leave the airlines and return to smaller planes so I don't get bored.
So I say go for it. Now is a great time to learn. When you have finished the recession should be over or starting to end anyways so there will be jobs.
Oh a reply from someone with a licence but no clue. Good one. When you have secured that all important first job, then let us know how it went.I very recently qualified as a commercial Pilot. Everyone I trained with has gotten a job. I haven't because I haven't applied as I haven't done my mcc course yet. Yes they all had to pay for their type ratings. I've heard all the people saying that people should not have to "buy" a job and ten years ago it was different etc. Well I don't care. Times change so change with it. 9/11 happened and a lot of airlines in america collapsed. Airlines no longer offered cadetships and people have to pay for their type ratings. It has cost me a lot off money to get to where I am now and I still have a bit to go towards getting a job. But I don't care. Already I've seen and done some great stuff that I couldn't even dream about sitting in some office. And I'm sure i'll do much more. I intend to join an airline now. But as soon as I have my loan paid off or am more financially secure I intend to leave the airlines and return to smaller planes so I don't get bored.
So I say go for it. Now is a great time to learn. When you have finished the recession should be over or starting to end anyways so there will be jobs.
I'll bet you are off down the Ryanair route too I suppose. Paying to work? Yep, that'll be nice. It's funny how inexperienced newbies get jobs and yet the experienced peeps get the dole. I wonder why? Oh, it's because you are happy to work for peanuts. How much flying do you reckon the experienced (expensive) RYR F/O's are getting at the mo? Especially since the majority of their salary is flying pay? Good one that eh!
Look back in 10 years, then maybe you'll understand how the industry really is.
Flying is still a wonderful career, but don't get into it for financial reasons. The view is still the best in the world and there is something very cool with being given a multi million pound toy to play with, but like any job, it is just that after a while. Though, I'm not sure I'd ever leave flying. My wife says that I'm the only person she knows who could win the lottery and still go to work everyday. Though I might go part-time!
To the OP, don't listen to any of the marketing guff from any of the big schools. They are in trouble at the moment and will say anything to get you in.
Keep your eyes open and make sure you listen to people who've been around more than 5 minutes.
It's a good job, but if you just want to fly, think about going for a PPL and buying something fun to play in. You will pull more birds that way!
Speaking of that, where is Lord Flash????
Edited by IforB on Tuesday 24th February 23:28
IforB said:
You will pull more birds that way.
Speaking of that, where is Lord Flash????
Curiously enough...Bird trouble, last I heard. Haven't seen him for months. Might be time to put the band back together!Speaking of that, where is Lord Flash????
I still have a score to settle with Bandit, the little git - my thousand pound Gentex electric hat in a helmet bag, perched under a table outside the clubhouse, not realising that the Bandit, being a terrier, is genetically programmed to piss into helmet bags.
IforB said:
Did you ever get rid of the whiff of eau de chien de batard?
Swapped out the Gentex liner for an Oregon Aero item - far better, less terrier pee; although, to be brutally honest, all it takes is a few fruity crosswind landings in the Pitts, and I can sweat enough to make the thing honk like a pair of Turkish wrestler's underpants - can't pin that on the terrier. The Oregon Aero stuff is washable though, a definate bonus.Being a Pilot would be my dream job, everytime I'm going round the '25 I always see a big bird coming down to land at Heathrow, but spending 80k to get qualified with no promis of a job at the end scares me.
Edited because what I said made no sense.
Edited because what I said made no sense.
Edited by gazza_3 on Wednesday 25th February 00:08
Some interesting perspectives there, as far as flying for fun, I do that a bit at the moment, mostly microlight (my old man flies group A), just haven't had enough time at home to get round to organising a licence yet 
The travel side doesn't really appeal (been doing that for years) so I'm not doing it to see exotic places (airport hotels and departure lounges 
) I will certainly do my PPL first, and probably pick something up if I ever get into a position where I spend more than a couple of weeks in the UK each year. It is just a matter of finding the time.
The travel side doesn't really appeal (been doing that for years) so I'm not doing it to see exotic places (airport hotels and departure lounges ) I will certainly do my PPL first, and probably pick something up if I ever get into a position where I spend more than a couple of weeks in the UK each year. It is just a matter of finding the time.I was lucky enough to be sponsored for my CPL(H) by my previous employers. I doubt I would have had the ability or inclination to pay out £50000+ myself, and then add the cost of an instrument rating on top of that.
Just happened to be right place, right time. I doubt I could do the course now! Loads of study required, although I imagine a degree would be much harder academically.
The job market has gone up and down several times in my career, but once you are in, and have some seniority, that becomes less of a problem. For me the constant assessment consists of a medical every 6 months, base check every 6 months, line check every year, CRM revalidation every year, instrument rating renewal, etc etc etc. Is it worth the hassle? YES. I love my job, and can honestly say I am pleased to go to work.
Just happened to be right place, right time. I doubt I could do the course now! Loads of study required, although I imagine a degree would be much harder academically.
The job market has gone up and down several times in my career, but once you are in, and have some seniority, that becomes less of a problem. For me the constant assessment consists of a medical every 6 months, base check every 6 months, line check every year, CRM revalidation every year, instrument rating renewal, etc etc etc. Is it worth the hassle? YES. I love my job, and can honestly say I am pleased to go to work.
IforB said:
Oh a reply from someone with a licence but no clue. Good one. When you have secured that all important first job, then let us know how it went.
I'll bet you are off down the Ryanair route too I suppose. Paying to work? Yep, that'll be nice. It's funny how inexperienced newbies get jobs and yet the experienced peeps get the dole. I wonder why? Oh, it's because you are happy to work for peanuts. How much flying do you reckon the experienced (expensive) RYR F/O's are getting at the mo? Especially since the majority of their salary is flying pay? Good one that eh!
Look back in 10 years, then maybe you'll understand how the industry really is.
You're right I am new. And yes I will be looking towards ryanair. I'll bet you are off down the Ryanair route too I suppose. Paying to work? Yep, that'll be nice. It's funny how inexperienced newbies get jobs and yet the experienced peeps get the dole. I wonder why? Oh, it's because you are happy to work for peanuts. How much flying do you reckon the experienced (expensive) RYR F/O's are getting at the mo? Especially since the majority of their salary is flying pay? Good one that eh!
Look back in 10 years, then maybe you'll understand how the industry really is.
Everyone knows it's not a perfect job, but what is. Up until now I've worked in security, hotels, fitness and as ground staff in airports. All jobs have their downsides. I still know i'll be happier flying planes instead of getting fat rich people to walk for an hour a week.
Back to the origional question. OP I know guys who are earning twice or three times what they will earn in the first three years that they will earn in the airlines. And they'll prob join ryanair too.
You can do an ab-initio integrated courses in around 15-16 months. Though you'll need a whole wedge of cash available to you in one lump. Bear in mind that banks are currently NOT lending to people for flight training.
Most people however go the self-improver route, which takes longer, but allows you to work between modules. How fast you go depends on how much money you have available to you and how much work you put in.
Most people however go the self-improver route, which takes longer, but allows you to work between modules. How fast you go depends on how much money you have available to you and how much work you put in.
IforB said:
kicks said:
Right i wasn't going to reply but then I seen the other two replys.
I very recently qualified as a commercial Pilot. Everyone I trained with has gotten a job. I haven't because I haven't applied as I haven't done my mcc course yet. Yes they all had to pay for their type ratings. I've heard all the people saying that people should not have to "buy" a job and ten years ago it was different etc. Well I don't care. Times change so change with it. 9/11 happened and a lot of airlines in america collapsed. Airlines no longer offered cadetships and people have to pay for their type ratings. It has cost me a lot off money to get to where I am now and I still have a bit to go towards getting a job. But I don't care. Already I've seen and done some great stuff that I couldn't even dream about sitting in some office. And I'm sure i'll do much more. I intend to join an airline now. But as soon as I have my loan paid off or am more financially secure I intend to leave the airlines and return to smaller planes so I don't get bored.
So I say go for it. Now is a great time to learn. When you have finished the recession should be over or starting to end anyways so there will be jobs.
Oh a reply from someone with a licence but no clue. Good one. When you have secured that all important first job, then let us know how it went.I very recently qualified as a commercial Pilot. Everyone I trained with has gotten a job. I haven't because I haven't applied as I haven't done my mcc course yet. Yes they all had to pay for their type ratings. I've heard all the people saying that people should not have to "buy" a job and ten years ago it was different etc. Well I don't care. Times change so change with it. 9/11 happened and a lot of airlines in america collapsed. Airlines no longer offered cadetships and people have to pay for their type ratings. It has cost me a lot off money to get to where I am now and I still have a bit to go towards getting a job. But I don't care. Already I've seen and done some great stuff that I couldn't even dream about sitting in some office. And I'm sure i'll do much more. I intend to join an airline now. But as soon as I have my loan paid off or am more financially secure I intend to leave the airlines and return to smaller planes so I don't get bored.
So I say go for it. Now is a great time to learn. When you have finished the recession should be over or starting to end anyways so there will be jobs.
I'll bet you are off down the Ryanair route too I suppose. Paying to work? Yep, that'll be nice. It's funny how inexperienced newbies get jobs and yet the experienced peeps get the dole. I wonder why? Oh, it's because you are happy to work for peanuts. How much flying do you reckon the experienced (expensive) RYR F/O's are getting at the mo? Especially since the majority of their salary is flying pay? Good one that eh!
Look back in 10 years, then maybe you'll understand how the industry really is.
Flying is still a wonderful career, but don't get into it for financial reasons. The view is still the best in the world and there is something very cool with being given a multi million pound toy to play with, but like any job, it is just that after a while. Though, I'm not sure I'd ever leave flying. My wife says that I'm the only person she knows who could win the lottery and still go to work everyday. Though I might go part-time!
To the OP, don't listen to any of the marketing guff from any of the big schools. They are in trouble at the moment and will say anything to get you in.
Keep your eyes open and make sure you listen to people who've been around more than 5 minutes.
It's a good job, but if you just want to fly, think about going for a PPL and buying something fun to play in. You will pull more birds that way!
Speaking of that, where is Lord Flash????
Edited by IforB on Tuesday 24th February 23:28
I could have cried when I read his post.
I actually said 'Go on Son!' out loud when I read yours.
Nothing more needs said, apart maybe from this. When I got into aviation 9 years ago, and started down the long road to ATPL, I was told by a very wise old Training Captain to treat aviation as ou would an acting or musical career. Great when you're in work, but be prepared for long periods without it, because thats the coming reality of the industry. Thats the best advice I think I ever recieved from anyone.
Right now, there are a feckload of sub 400 hour Pilots out there looking for work, both rotary and fixed wing. If they want a job that pays a living salary, then they have to buy a type rating. 35k+ cost. Banks ain't gonna lend on it, so where do you raise that from?
Paying back the secured 100,000 loan it takes to go integrated these days takes a decent job. Not many get it.
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