Red Letter Day stunt flying.
Discussion
I reckon it'd be easy to use too much energy in a manouevre and throw a lot of height away in a glider (a bit like doing aeros in a C150 Aerobat come to think of it...). At least with powered aeros you can maintain height and do the manouever again and again until it's nailed. Must be satisfying to get it right in a glider, though. What's the roll rate like?
I'm always impressed with the Swift glider/twister/tug display team. I think they're about the best thing on the airshow circuit at the moment.
I'm always impressed with the Swift glider/twister/tug display team. I think they're about the best thing on the airshow circuit at the moment.
speedtwelve said:
Ed Harding will probably be along in a minute re: Extra 300 flying, but try googling for Alan Cassidy at White Waltham, or look at Ultimate High at Kemble. There's also an Extra 200 at Cambridge. I agree, go direct to the outfit concerned, the 'red/green/blue letter' type companies take a big cut of your money.
As per Speedtwelve - http://www.wlac.co.uk/gift_vouchers.htm - you might want to try the Pitts before the Extra, AC is available to fly both. The mates down at Kemble are very competent as well, if that's closer for you.john_p said:
Certainly would be interesting to compare it to my gliding aerobatics, where I'm just learning the basics. Problem with doing it in a glider, 4000ft of aerotow doesn't last long at all...
In terms of cost vs. figures flown for competition aerobatics, powered is significantly cheaper than un-powered, certainly if you can get into a syndicated Pitts on a permit, for example. I've managed to get two complete critiqued sequences done in the Waltham overhead for a .2hr airborne time - less than £20 - obviously there are monthly hangarage, insurance and maintenace bills, and the initial capital expenditure, but you get the idea.More than a few of the current stars in powered competition aerobatics made the switch from gliders - Emily Todd, this year's Standard champion, only recently came across from the glider fraternity, and Julian "The Smurf" Murfitt and Steve Madle - the latest UK Unlimited pilots, and recent Advanced and Intermediate champions - both spent a long time in gliders before moving to the powered mob.
Gliding experience certainly gives you an idea of what your feet are for, and being comfortable nibbling at the edge of the stall, not things that the average power PPL experience prepares you for.
If you're considering going down the competition route - powered or unpowered - I'd highly recommend flying with AC.
john_p said:
It's true, at £50-odd for a 4000ft flight it soon gets spent quick. I'm up the road from White Waltham so that sounds perfect. Why the Pitts first, then the Extra? (Nervously steps on scales to check weight limit)
Because everyone should have some Pitts time - and I'd say that its nicer to fly than the Extra - not as capable, by a significant margin, but there is something about a Pitts that just puts a grin on your face.Book a session with Cassidy at Waltham - if you do it at a weekend, and the Yak is available, you can sit in the back of that afterwards and we'll punt it around few figures - I promise not to do that 1 1/2 turn spin 3/4 loop combination that knackered JW911's back a while back (sorry mate!).
If you're not that far from WW, then I'd guess you're gliding at Booker?
speedtwelve said:
Glad you had fun! When the weather went a bit cruddy the bloke driving your Cessna would be receiving a radar service from Farnborough, which means that the controller can see and give traffic information on everyone in the vicinity. There'd be a rectangular box on the instrument panel (transponder) into which the instructor would have dialled a 4-digit code (squawk) which the controller will have supplied. The transponder increases radar conspicuity and also enables the controller to track who's who, each aircraft under his radar service having been given a different discrete squawk code. The instructor would either have been under 'traffic service' in which the controller will call other traffic and leave your instructor to steer round it, or a 'deconfliction service' in which the controller will issue instructions to keep you from finding out whether the next cloud has a metal centre. It's all normal procedure, and designed to enable everyone to safely fly in reduced/zero visibility (not much lookout available in cloud).
The nav kit installed in your Cessna was probably very basic. Sometimes nav beacons on the ground become unavailable, or the kit in the aircraft breaks. If it does it's no big deal, as the radar controller can supply radar vectors for an approach to land, or cloud break in your case yesterday. Again, all perfectly normal. When I used to do trial lessons as a civvy instructor I found myself in the same scenario as yourself on a few occasions, particularly when based in Scotland! It's a fine line between making a (safe) attempt at getting the punter airborne and trying to find some decent weather, and cancelling on the ground. Good that the school are giving you another trip. It's more fun when you can see the scenery, especially when it's upside down.
ETA: When in cloud there is a minimum safe altitude for the purpose of terrain/obstacle clearance. You don't want to smack any hills, tv masts etc. That's why you climbed when the weather went crap. If you're high enough to meet the safety altitude requirement, you're high enough to be seen on radar on any unit close enough to be controlling you. Radar is line-of-sight.
Many thanks for the explanation, Cheers.The nav kit installed in your Cessna was probably very basic. Sometimes nav beacons on the ground become unavailable, or the kit in the aircraft breaks. If it does it's no big deal, as the radar controller can supply radar vectors for an approach to land, or cloud break in your case yesterday. Again, all perfectly normal. When I used to do trial lessons as a civvy instructor I found myself in the same scenario as yourself on a few occasions, particularly when based in Scotland! It's a fine line between making a (safe) attempt at getting the punter airborne and trying to find some decent weather, and cancelling on the ground. Good that the school are giving you another trip. It's more fun when you can see the scenery, especially when it's upside down.
ETA: When in cloud there is a minimum safe altitude for the purpose of terrain/obstacle clearance. You don't want to smack any hills, tv masts etc. That's why you climbed when the weather went crap. If you're high enough to meet the safety altitude requirement, you're high enough to be seen on radar on any unit close enough to be controlling you. Radar is line-of-sight.
Edited by speedtwelve on Tuesday 15th December 21:20
croyde said:
speedtwelve said:
Glad you had fun! When the weather went a bit cruddy the bloke driving your Cessna would be receiving a radar service from Farnborough, which means that the controller can see and give traffic information on everyone in the vicinity. There'd be a rectangular box on the instrument panel (transponder) into which the instructor would have dialled a 4-digit code (squawk) which the controller will have supplied. The transponder increases radar conspicuity and also enables the controller to track who's who, each aircraft under his radar service having been given a different discrete squawk code. The instructor would either have been under 'traffic service' in which the controller will call other traffic and leave your instructor to steer round it, or a 'deconfliction service' in which the controller will issue instructions to keep you from finding out whether the next cloud has a metal centre. It's all normal procedure, and designed to enable everyone to safely fly in reduced/zero visibility (not much lookout available in cloud).
The nav kit installed in your Cessna was probably very basic. Sometimes nav beacons on the ground become unavailable, or the kit in the aircraft breaks. If it does it's no big deal, as the radar controller can supply radar vectors for an approach to land, or cloud break in your case yesterday. Again, all perfectly normal. When I used to do trial lessons as a civvy instructor I found myself in the same scenario as yourself on a few occasions, particularly when based in Scotland! It's a fine line between making a (safe) attempt at getting the punter airborne and trying to find some decent weather, and cancelling on the ground. Good that the school are giving you another trip. It's more fun when you can see the scenery, especially when it's upside down.
ETA: When in cloud there is a minimum safe altitude for the purpose of terrain/obstacle clearance. You don't want to smack any hills, tv masts etc. That's why you climbed when the weather went crap. If you're high enough to meet the safety altitude requirement, you're high enough to be seen on radar on any unit close enough to be controlling you. Radar is line-of-sight.
Many thanks for the explanation, Cheers.The nav kit installed in your Cessna was probably very basic. Sometimes nav beacons on the ground become unavailable, or the kit in the aircraft breaks. If it does it's no big deal, as the radar controller can supply radar vectors for an approach to land, or cloud break in your case yesterday. Again, all perfectly normal. When I used to do trial lessons as a civvy instructor I found myself in the same scenario as yourself on a few occasions, particularly when based in Scotland! It's a fine line between making a (safe) attempt at getting the punter airborne and trying to find some decent weather, and cancelling on the ground. Good that the school are giving you another trip. It's more fun when you can see the scenery, especially when it's upside down.
ETA: When in cloud there is a minimum safe altitude for the purpose of terrain/obstacle clearance. You don't want to smack any hills, tv masts etc. That's why you climbed when the weather went crap. If you're high enough to meet the safety altitude requirement, you're high enough to be seen on radar on any unit close enough to be controlling you. Radar is line-of-sight.
Edited by speedtwelve on Tuesday 15th December 21:20
I've just read back down the thread, and seen your account of your trip.
Suffice to say, your average aerobatic experience trip doesn't generally involve contemplating an ILS approach into Farnborough.
Speedtwelve has covered the specifics - I'm sure your next trip will involve more VMC rock-and-roll and less IMC rhytmn-and-blues.
croyde said:
how are collisions avoided when there is no radar on board.
Luck. Also known as "see and avoid", "the blue sky theory", "the mark one eyeball".It's a common misconception by non-flyers that every aircraft in every bit of sky is "on radar" or "talking to air traffic control". They're not.
Sweet dreams
Aircraft do not use their on-board radar as a navigational aid. Civil aircraft use their radar as a weather warning device. Most light aircraft do not possess such radar anyway.
In controlled airspace, ground based radar is used by the controllers to identify and instruct aircraft on what course and height to maintain.
In controlled airspace, ground based radar is used by the controllers to identify and instruct aircraft on what course and height to maintain.
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