Well here's an astonishing fact

[RDE]

Here's something for you to puzzle over. Given that the Schneider Trophy was a speed contest, why did they use seaplanes?

Big floats = drag = lower speed, right?

[FourWheelDrift]

Wasn't it to do with pushing advances in air mail, the long distances to be flown usually over seas necessitating water landings at either end?

[Simpo Two]

Eric Mc said:

Ayahuasca said:

Doolittle may have flown Mitchell bombers, but given his background maybe he would have been just as good in a different Mitchell's product - the S.5 racer that evolved into a rather famous Mitchell fighter.

That is often quoted although there was very little crossover between the two aircraft - excpt for the fact that they were both all metal monoplanes.

I think Ayahuasca was playing on the name; I doubt the Mitchell bomber had anything at all to do with RJ Mitchell - who was working on a four engined bomber that might have made the Lancaster look shabby - but never made production.

RDE said:

Here's something for you to puzzle over. Given that the Schneider Trophy was a speed contest, why did they use seaplanes? Big floats = drag = lower speed, right?

Indeed - but in those days there weren't many runways so landing on water meant the plane could go anywhere. It was really jet airliners that killed off seaplanes and flying boats.

But if floats bother you, check out this work of genius! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.7

[dr_gn]

Simpo Two said:

But if floats bother you, check out this work of genius! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.7

Genius...apart from the fact it apparently never actually flew!

[Simpo Two]

Well, there is that, yes. But it looks awesome, the kind of thing I'd have enjoyed designing - had I been an aeroplane designer and alive in the 1920s of course :wibble:

[Eric Mc]

The Schneider Trophy was established by Frenchman Jaques Schneider before World War specifically for seaplanes and flying boats. At that time, there wouldn't have been any massive difference in drag between land planes and seaplanes due to the high drag nature of early biplane designs.. In fact, it wasn't until after the Schneider Tropy finished in 1931 (due to Britain winning it in perpetuity) that the obvious speed advantage in retractable undercarriage, all metal monoplanes began was established. By 1931, the Schneider Trophy racing seaplanes were not just the fastest seaplanes in the world, they were the fastest aircraft in the world.

I don't think that there was any specific link to mail flights - although it was generally hoped that any competion would benefit the advance of aviation generally. In the years before World War 1, a number of competitions were set up by wealthy benefactors and newspapers to push aircraft development. The Schneider Trophy was just another one of them.

As for the Griffon, it was a Rolls Royce engine developed from the Schneider Trophy "R" (for racing) engine and saw extensive use in aircraft such as the late Mark Spitfire, the Fairey Firefly and the Avro Shackleton.

By the way, I wasn't trying to establish any sort of link between R J Mitchell and General Billy Mitchell.

Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 27th May 07:52

[RDE]

Simpo Two said:

RDE said:

Here's something for you to puzzle over. Given that the Schneider Trophy was a speed contest, why did they use seaplanes? Big floats = drag = lower speed, right?

Indeed - but in those days there weren't many runways so landing on water meant the plane could go anywhere. It was really jet airliners that killed off seaplanes and flying boats.

I may be about to talk a bunch of arse, but I think there's more to it than that. The propellors were fixed-pitch, so would likely have been set up for the type of speed that they wanted to achieve to win i.e. coarse pitch. This doesn't give great take-off performance, so a long take-off run would be required. There weren't many runways, and those that were may not have been long enough.

[Eric Mc]

It wasn't jets that killed off flying boats, it was World War 2. Before 1939, most airfields were grass and fairly small and there weren't that many of them, especially in the undeveloped world. They were also, on the whole, too small to handle large and heavy aircraft.

The only really feasible large and heavy aircraft were flying boats.

During World War 2, thousands of long, concrete and tarmac runways were built all over the world. Many of these became civil airports after the war ended.

By mid World War 2, American manufacturers such as Lockheed, Douglas and Boeing were designing large land based airliners, such as the Douglas DC-4, Lockheed Constellation and Boeing Stratocruiser.
Most large flying boats designed in the final years of the war or in the immediate post war period were not built in large numbers or were never taken up by the airlines. By 1945, the writing was on the wall for the large flying boat for all to see - although a number of manufacturers, such as Saunders Roe and Short Brothers, continued to roll out designs for larger and larger flying boats.

By the time the large jet airliners entered service at the end of the 1950s, the flying boat was already a dead concept. from a commercial point of view.

Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 27th May 09:09

[Eric Mc]

RDE said:

Simpo Two said:

RDE said:

Here's something for you to puzzle over. Given that the Schneider Trophy was a speed contest, why did they use seaplanes? Big floats = drag = lower speed, right?

Indeed - but in those days there weren't many runways so landing on water meant the plane could go anywhere. It was really jet airliners that killed off seaplanes and flying boats.

I may be about to talk a bunch of arse, but I think there's more to it than that. The propellors were fixed-pitch, so would likely have been set up for the type of speed that they wanted to achieve to win i.e. coarse pitch. This doesn't give great take-off performance, so a long take-off run would be required. There weren't many runways, and those that were may not have been long enough.

They weren't built as seaplanes because there weren't any runways long enough.

They were built as seaplanes because the Schneider Trophy had been set up explicitly for flying boats and seaplanes.

The designs evolved enormously over the period the competition was run (1913 to 1931 - with a gap for WW1) - but they were always seaplnaes and flying boats.

[RDE]

Well then the first part of my reply has been proven correct. My apologies. As you were.

Edited by RDE on Thursday 27th May 09:14

[Eric Mc]

My favourite White Elephant flying boat design - the SARO Princess

[Simpo Two]

Eric Mc said:

At that time, there wouldn't have been any massive difference in drag between land planes and seaplanes due to the high drag nature of early biplane designs.

But, all else being equal, a biplane with normal u/c would go faster than a biplane with floats as there's less drag. The fact that the Schneider planes tended to be monoplanes would of course mitigate this effect - nonetheless, they'd still have gone faster if you'd taken the floats off!

Eric Mc said:

It wasn't jets that killed off flying boats, it was World War 2... During World War 2, thousands of long, concrete and tarmac runways were built all over the world. Many of these became civil airports after the war ended.

Fair point. The war contributed in another way too, by pioneering the jet engine.

Eric Mc said:

My favourite White Elephant flying boat design - the SARO Princess

Not the Spruce Goose then?

[Ayahuasca]

Small seaplanes are also useful for policing remote, isolated islands off the coast of Scotland.