Do 17 found buried in sandbank
Discussion
Did it? I have always believed that the first British shoot down of the war was a Royal Navy Skua against a Dornier Do18 flying boat.
However, a quick Google reveals this -
"On 20th September 1939 three Fairey Battle bombers of 88 Squadron based at Mourmelon-Le-Grand in France as part of the RAF Advanced Air Striking Force (A.A.S.F.) took off at 10am for a recce flight over Aachen. The aircraft were fired on by French anti-Aircraft guns before they crossed the border. Over Aachen they were engaged by three Messerschmitt Bf109 fighters. Battle K9245 flown by Flight Sgt D.A. Page with crewmen Sgt A.W. Eggington and AC1 W.A.W. Radford was shot down, quickly followed by Battle K9242 flown by Flying Officer R.C. Graveley with crewmen Sgt W.S. Everett and AC1 D.J. John. Flying Officer Graveley was awarded the George Cross Medal for his attempts to rescue his crew from the burning aircraft. In the remaining aircraft, K9243 flown by Flying Officer L.H. Baker and crewed by Sgt L.H. Letchford and AC1 C.A. Edwards, fire was returned by Sgt L.H. Letchford in the gunner's position. He claimed a Bf109 shot down. This does not seem to have been officially "confirmed" at first, which is why the shooting down of the Dornier by Skuas on the 26th is often listed as the first British aerial victory of WWII - It should more accurately be called the first British aerial victory to be confirmed. Evidence to support the claim for Sgt Letchford came later, from French sources, which in turn led to it being confirmed".
However, a quick Google reveals this -
"On 20th September 1939 three Fairey Battle bombers of 88 Squadron based at Mourmelon-Le-Grand in France as part of the RAF Advanced Air Striking Force (A.A.S.F.) took off at 10am for a recce flight over Aachen. The aircraft were fired on by French anti-Aircraft guns before they crossed the border. Over Aachen they were engaged by three Messerschmitt Bf109 fighters. Battle K9245 flown by Flight Sgt D.A. Page with crewmen Sgt A.W. Eggington and AC1 W.A.W. Radford was shot down, quickly followed by Battle K9242 flown by Flying Officer R.C. Graveley with crewmen Sgt W.S. Everett and AC1 D.J. John. Flying Officer Graveley was awarded the George Cross Medal for his attempts to rescue his crew from the burning aircraft. In the remaining aircraft, K9243 flown by Flying Officer L.H. Baker and crewed by Sgt L.H. Letchford and AC1 C.A. Edwards, fire was returned by Sgt L.H. Letchford in the gunner's position. He claimed a Bf109 shot down. This does not seem to have been officially "confirmed" at first, which is why the shooting down of the Dornier by Skuas on the 26th is often listed as the first British aerial victory of WWII - It should more accurately be called the first British aerial victory to be confirmed. Evidence to support the claim for Sgt Letchford came later, from French sources, which in turn led to it being confirmed".
The Hypno-Toad said:
Eric Mc said:
The Hypno-Toad said:
Eric Mc said:
williamp said:
stuttgartmetal said:
RIP Reinhardt and Huhn.
Lets not forget we are all human.
Yes indeed. RIP.Lets not forget we are all human.
But...being shot down by a Defiant????
They probably assumed it was a Hurricane and didn't realise they were going to be attacked from a rearward or sideways facing gun turret.
Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 3rd September 12:25
"On 20 September 1939, a German Messerschmitt Bf 109 was shot down by Battle gunner Sgt. F. Letchard during a patrol near Aachen, marking the RAF's first aerial victory of the war."
"cough"
Anyway, sorry Eric, just trying to be droll and obviously failing. Just thought it was well known that the Battle was possibly the worst hunk of junk to fly in WWII.
However the attacks on the Albert Canal and the bravery displayed really does bring a lump to the throat. Some commentators have compared it to an flying Charge Of The Light Brigade.
The Battle was unfortunate in that it appeared a brilliant aircarft at the time it was designed but became outdated in less than two years. Unfortunately, the RAF had lots of them and they had no choice but to use them in 1939/40. In 1992, I had a chat with the rear gunner of a Battle who had flown on the Albert Canal missions.
Eric Mc said:
Did it? I have always believed that the first British shoot down of the war was a Royal Navy Skua against a Dornier Do18 flying boat.
However, a quick Google reveals this -
"On 20th September 1939 three Fairey Battle bombers of 88 Squadron based at Mourmelon-Le-Grand in France as part of the RAF Advanced Air Striking Force (A.A.S.F.) took off at 10am for a recce flight over Aachen. The aircraft were fired on by French anti-Aircraft guns before they crossed the border. Over Aachen they were engaged by three Messerschmitt Bf109 fighters. Battle K9245 flown by Flight Sgt D.A. Page with crewmen Sgt A.W. Eggington and AC1 W.A.W. Radford was shot down, quickly followed by Battle K9242 flown by Flying Officer R.C. Graveley with crewmen Sgt W.S. Everett and AC1 D.J. John. Flying Officer Graveley was awarded the George Cross Medal for his attempts to rescue his crew from the burning aircraft. In the remaining aircraft, K9243 flown by Flying Officer L.H. Baker and crewed by Sgt L.H. Letchford and AC1 C.A. Edwards, fire was returned by Sgt L.H. Letchford in the gunner's position. He claimed a Bf109 shot down. This does not seem to have been officially "confirmed" at first, which is why the shooting down of the Dornier by Skuas on the 26th is often listed as the first British aerial victory of WWII - It should more accurately be called the first British aerial victory to be confirmed. Evidence to support the claim for Sgt Letchford came later, from French sources, which in turn led to it being confirmed".
Oh quelle surprise.However, a quick Google reveals this -
"On 20th September 1939 three Fairey Battle bombers of 88 Squadron based at Mourmelon-Le-Grand in France as part of the RAF Advanced Air Striking Force (A.A.S.F.) took off at 10am for a recce flight over Aachen. The aircraft were fired on by French anti-Aircraft guns before they crossed the border. Over Aachen they were engaged by three Messerschmitt Bf109 fighters. Battle K9245 flown by Flight Sgt D.A. Page with crewmen Sgt A.W. Eggington and AC1 W.A.W. Radford was shot down, quickly followed by Battle K9242 flown by Flying Officer R.C. Graveley with crewmen Sgt W.S. Everett and AC1 D.J. John. Flying Officer Graveley was awarded the George Cross Medal for his attempts to rescue his crew from the burning aircraft. In the remaining aircraft, K9243 flown by Flying Officer L.H. Baker and crewed by Sgt L.H. Letchford and AC1 C.A. Edwards, fire was returned by Sgt L.H. Letchford in the gunner's position. He claimed a Bf109 shot down. This does not seem to have been officially "confirmed" at first, which is why the shooting down of the Dornier by Skuas on the 26th is often listed as the first British aerial victory of WWII - It should more accurately be called the first British aerial victory to be confirmed. Evidence to support the claim for Sgt Letchford came later, from French sources, which in turn led to it being confirmed".
Eric Mc said:
I think the movie Battle of Britain gives the impression that the only bomber used by the Germans was the He111. Obviously, when the film was made in 1968, the only "German" bomber available was the Spanish CASA 211 derivative of the He111 so that is what they used.
Indeed, the JU87's that they used where infact model aircraft.IanMorewood said:
Eric Mc said:
I think the movie Battle of Britain gives the impression that the only bomber used by the Germans was the He111. Obviously, when the film was made in 1968, the only "German" bomber available was the Spanish CASA 211 derivative of the He111 so that is what they used.
Indeed, the JU87's that they used where infact model aircraft.Eric Mc said:
IanMorewood said:
Eric Mc said:
I think the movie Battle of Britain gives the impression that the only bomber used by the Germans was the He111. Obviously, when the film was made in 1968, the only "German" bomber available was the Spanish CASA 211 derivative of the He111 so that is what they used.
Indeed, the JU87's that they used where infact model aircraft.
Eric Mc said:
IanMorewood said:
Eric Mc said:
I think the movie Battle of Britain gives the impression that the only bomber used by the Germans was the He111. Obviously, when the film was made in 1968, the only "German" bomber available was the Spanish CASA 211 derivative of the He111 so that is what they used.
Indeed, the JU87's that they used where infact model aircraft.Here it is being flown.
Eric Mc said:
I wouldn't describe the flipping over of the aircraft on landing as a "ground loop". A ground loop usually means when the rear end of the aircraft swings around so that the aeroplane ends up facing the wrong way around - nut remains the right way up.
That's what I thought too. Trying to land wheels-down on sand was asking for trouble.Eric Mc said:
I'm not sure about the BBC's definition of "successful" though.
Based on the adage 'anything you can walk away from', it was successful for half the crew...I've just finished reading 'Peter Five', about a Halifax crew flying from Tempsford. Crash-landing in France with an engine fire, four crew were fine, one injured and two killed. I think it's mostly luck on the day, especially in wartime.
Edited by Simpo Two on Saturday 4th September 09:49
From the MOD, RAF History site...
"20 Sep 1939 - Sgt F Letchard, a gunner in a Fairey Battle, claims the first RAF victory of the war after shooting down a German Bf 109 during a patrol near Aachen."
"29 Nov 1939 - After being attacked by Spitfires of Nos. 602 and 603 Sqns over Lothian in Scotland, an He 111 bomber becomes the first German aircraft to be shot down over the UK."
"20 Sep 1939 - Sgt F Letchard, a gunner in a Fairey Battle, claims the first RAF victory of the war after shooting down a German Bf 109 during a patrol near Aachen."
"29 Nov 1939 - After being attacked by Spitfires of Nos. 602 and 603 Sqns over Lothian in Scotland, an He 111 bomber becomes the first German aircraft to be shot down over the UK."
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