Marine VHF versus aircraft RT
Discussion
I went flying for the first time in a few years the othe day...I never got my PPL but I did get solo and my overriding thought was "how the hell did I get to the standard to do this...seems mighty complicated now!"
Most of my free weekends are spent sailing now, and it got me thinking. Why, when the majority of marine traffic is going no faster than 20 knots, and the radio is in a nice quiet wheelhouse or by a chart table, is VHF "language" so slow, deliberate and repeated, when aircraft comms are not? Aircraft are moving in 3 dimensions, at at least 100 knots, things tend to be a bit more terminal in the event of a prang, yet there's no "over" and everything is said in "that" tone which is about twice the speed of monotone dull VHF traffic. You'd get laughed out of town for saying "Shoreham Tower, Shoreham Tower, Shoreham Tower, this is Golf Bravo Whisky Charlie Romeo, Golf Bravo Whisky Charlie Romeo, Golf Bravo Whisky Charlie Romeo, over" yet that's the done thing in something going four knots.
Erm, why? Does marine VHF need to "lighten up" a bit? OK I know that a sailor does not wear "cans" at the helm but there still seems to be a massive difference between the two?
Thoughts?
Most of my free weekends are spent sailing now, and it got me thinking. Why, when the majority of marine traffic is going no faster than 20 knots, and the radio is in a nice quiet wheelhouse or by a chart table, is VHF "language" so slow, deliberate and repeated, when aircraft comms are not? Aircraft are moving in 3 dimensions, at at least 100 knots, things tend to be a bit more terminal in the event of a prang, yet there's no "over" and everything is said in "that" tone which is about twice the speed of monotone dull VHF traffic. You'd get laughed out of town for saying "Shoreham Tower, Shoreham Tower, Shoreham Tower, this is Golf Bravo Whisky Charlie Romeo, Golf Bravo Whisky Charlie Romeo, Golf Bravo Whisky Charlie Romeo, over" yet that's the done thing in something going four knots.
Erm, why? Does marine VHF need to "lighten up" a bit? OK I know that a sailor does not wear "cans" at the helm but there still seems to be a massive difference between the two?
Thoughts?
A great many people using marine VHF aboard merchant vessels do not speak English as a first language, and many of them aren't going to be highly educated as most pilots are likely to be. Speaking slowly can make the difference between understanding and not.
You also can't make assumptions about what the conditions are like for the person receiving the traffic. In an aircraft, the pilot is invariably wearing a decent set of headphones that makes understanding transmissions easy. Most people on boats don't. On smaller vessels the noise made by high wind is very loud, and it can make understanding someone or making yourself understood very difficult.
In addition, unless you are making an anticipated transmission you have to get the attention of the person aboard the vessel you are trying to communicate with - they won't necessarily be listening out for their vessels name. If you sit in Dover harbour listening to the port control channel, communications are very much more akin to that you'd hear on an aviation frequency because there is a lot of traffic, and much of what is said is anticipated. Those doing the talking are also professionals, who do it constantly.
You also can't make assumptions about what the conditions are like for the person receiving the traffic. In an aircraft, the pilot is invariably wearing a decent set of headphones that makes understanding transmissions easy. Most people on boats don't. On smaller vessels the noise made by high wind is very loud, and it can make understanding someone or making yourself understood very difficult.
In addition, unless you are making an anticipated transmission you have to get the attention of the person aboard the vessel you are trying to communicate with - they won't necessarily be listening out for their vessels name. If you sit in Dover harbour listening to the port control channel, communications are very much more akin to that you'd hear on an aviation frequency because there is a lot of traffic, and much of what is said is anticipated. Those doing the talking are also professionals, who do it constantly.
The quality of R/T on a plane is critical to its safety and used constantly- hence you spend a LOT of money on hardware to make sure you can cancel extraneous noises and clearly hear what is being said
ON a boat, most comms will be emergency only, and R/T sets will be emergency backup stuff with no headphones, just an open mic. IT can be very very hard to hear what is being said with this sort of kit, but spending more to get better kit isn't justified most of the time. The exception is of course mil and large commercial when it can be of very high quality.
ON a boat, most comms will be emergency only, and R/T sets will be emergency backup stuff with no headphones, just an open mic. IT can be very very hard to hear what is being said with this sort of kit, but spending more to get better kit isn't justified most of the time. The exception is of course mil and large commercial when it can be of very high quality.
I think the only time I ever used "over" was in my GMDSS exam.
Routine stuff used to get rattled off, reporting to VTS and the like and I'd imagine it's the same for pilots, if you're requesting permission to take off there are three answers you're expecting, cleared r.way 26, cleared r.way 08 or no. So it can be kept brief.
The unexpected stuff....look up the Canadian Hawk crash on YouTube, by the time the tower replies with "sorry did you say mayday?" the pilots had already ejected, having said that the controller in water landing in New York came up with an alternate runway in seconds.....
I was once asked to give a lost yacht it's position mid north sea, easy enough for me to rattle off but I had to put myself in his position, ie hanging on to a bucking vomit covered chart table, trying to write stuff whilst soaked and freezing (don'tcha just love sailing?)
I think the main difference is that planes generally talk to the ground, boats are allowed to talk to each other, hence the need for a bit more clarity at times.
Routine stuff used to get rattled off, reporting to VTS and the like and I'd imagine it's the same for pilots, if you're requesting permission to take off there are three answers you're expecting, cleared r.way 26, cleared r.way 08 or no. So it can be kept brief.
The unexpected stuff....look up the Canadian Hawk crash on YouTube, by the time the tower replies with "sorry did you say mayday?" the pilots had already ejected, having said that the controller in water landing in New York came up with an alternate runway in seconds.....
I was once asked to give a lost yacht it's position mid north sea, easy enough for me to rattle off but I had to put myself in his position, ie hanging on to a bucking vomit covered chart table, trying to write stuff whilst soaked and freezing (don'tcha just love sailing?)
I think the main difference is that planes generally talk to the ground, boats are allowed to talk to each other, hence the need for a bit more clarity at times.
DJFish said:
I think the only time I ever used "over" was in my GMDSS exam.
Doesn't it depend a bit though? If you're having a chit chat with someone trying to tie up where you are going to meet for a beer, then strict R/T procedure doesn't often get observed. I must admit though that I mind my P's and Q's if I have to chat to the Coastguard, or for example to QHM Portsmouth, and so do they when they chat to us, IME at least.Riff Raff said:
QHM Portsmouth
that just calls for a posher accent 
Here's the clip of the hawk crash, you can understand why his transmission is brief.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z00gU-OQdQI&fea...
another problem with marine vhf is trying to listen to it over engine noise, if like our tub the engine is in the cabin (even if it is in a lagged cowling).
as the radio signal travels line of sight, if on a winding river the signal could be struggling against buildings or other bigger vessels, therefore the 3 name repeat helps alot when it comes thru broken.
as the radio signal travels line of sight, if on a winding river the signal could be struggling against buildings or other bigger vessels, therefore the 3 name repeat helps alot when it comes thru broken.
Marty63 said:
another problem with marine vhf is trying to listen to it over engine noise, if like our tub the engine is in the cabin (even if it is in a lagged cowling).
A 10-litre radial with stub exhausts thundering at max chat a few feet away can tend to make airborne RT somewhat difficult to discern as well... 
Actually, having experimented with all manner of (expensive) electronic noise cancelling gear, the thing which stopped me going deaf in the Pitts (ear-splittingly loud, much more so than the Yak) were these simple, inexpensive secondary speaker earplugs:
http://www.cep-usa.com/
I've fitted them to all manner of helmets and headsets in the past, and in terms of value-for-money, very hard to beat. Far better at hearing protection and enhancing RT audibility than any ENR I've tried.
I've never used marine R/T, but is it likely to be worse in quality due to line-of-sight issues? With aircraft, more often than not, you'll have nothing between two stations that are transmitting to each other, but I would guess it's much easier to lose LOS at sea.
There are still ramblers on aviation R/T, on both sides of the radio. It's more common for private flyers to be less slick with their R/T, i'd imagine due simply to less exposure to it than the professionals.
I never thought of marine R/T for being an influence for what seems to me to be some odd practices (use of 'over' for a start). I don't know if it's from marine use, but some users don't realise that you can just start talking or making a request, and instead call you with their callsign, you respond, and then they'll ask for something. Fair enough on first contact, but all the time is perculiar. Is that a shipping thing? It makes for a conversation a little like this:
"Mum?"
"Yes?"
"Mum, can I have a biscuit?"
"Yes, you can have a biscuit."
"I can have a biscuit, thank you."
"Mum?"
"Pass your message, dear child."
"Mum, can I have a glass of milk? Over."
"Yes, you can have a glass of milk."
"I can have a glass of milk, me."
There are still ramblers on aviation R/T, on both sides of the radio. It's more common for private flyers to be less slick with their R/T, i'd imagine due simply to less exposure to it than the professionals.
I never thought of marine R/T for being an influence for what seems to me to be some odd practices (use of 'over' for a start). I don't know if it's from marine use, but some users don't realise that you can just start talking or making a request, and instead call you with their callsign, you respond, and then they'll ask for something. Fair enough on first contact, but all the time is perculiar. Is that a shipping thing? It makes for a conversation a little like this:
"Mum?"
"Yes?"
"Mum, can I have a biscuit?"
"Yes, you can have a biscuit."
"I can have a biscuit, thank you."
"Mum?"
"Pass your message, dear child."
"Mum, can I have a glass of milk? Over."
"Yes, you can have a glass of milk."
"I can have a glass of milk, me."
Prawo Jazdy said:
I've never used marine R/T, but is it likely to be worse in quality due to line-of-sight issues? With aircraft, more often than not, you'll have nothing between two stations that are transmitting to each other, but I would guess it's much easier to lose LOS at sea.
There are still ramblers on aviation R/T, on both sides of the radio. It's more common for private flyers to be less slick with their R/T, i'd imagine due simply to less exposure to it than the professionals.
I never thought of marine R/T for being an influence for what seems to me to be some odd practices (use of 'over' for a start). I don't know if it's from marine use, but some users don't realise that you can just start talking or making a request, and instead call you with their callsign, you respond, and then they'll ask for something. Fair enough on first contact, but all the time is perculiar. Is that a shipping thing? It makes for a conversation a little like this:
The use of over means indicates that the transmission is over and you are waiting for a reply. As I mentioned above, the reason for calling before making a request is that you need to attract the receiving stations attention. On a boat, you generally are only paying cursory attention to the radio, so might miss a transmission that launches straight into its message. You also are not guaranteed to be in radio range - marine VHF can vary between 10 and 30ish miles depending on whether you are using a hand held radio, or have a normal set with the aerial at the top of a 60 foot mast.There are still ramblers on aviation R/T, on both sides of the radio. It's more common for private flyers to be less slick with their R/T, i'd imagine due simply to less exposure to it than the professionals.
I never thought of marine R/T for being an influence for what seems to me to be some odd practices (use of 'over' for a start). I don't know if it's from marine use, but some users don't realise that you can just start talking or making a request, and instead call you with their callsign, you respond, and then they'll ask for something. Fair enough on first contact, but all the time is perculiar. Is that a shipping thing? It makes for a conversation a little like this:
While some of the practices appear odd, there is usually a good reason for them that only becomes apparent when conditions are less than perfect. There is considerable scope for misunderstanding when using a radio that you don't tend to get with a telephone call, so the slightly formal style helps minimise that. Obviously, if you are just trying to arrange a time to go ashore for a pint with the boat across the anchorage it needn't be quite like that, but if you use it properly most of the time then when you do actually have to make a mayday call the chances are better you are going to be understood.
Prawo Jazdy said:
"Mum?"
"Pass your message, dear child."
"Mum, can I have a glass of milk? Over."
"Yes, you can have a glass of milk."
"I can have a glass of milk, me."
...or round Solent Radar way...."Pass your message, dear child."
"Mum, can I have a glass of milk? Over."
"Yes, you can have a glass of milk."
"I can have a glass of milk, me."
"Mum?"
"Pass your message, dear child."
"Mum, can I have a glass of milk? Over."
"No. Stand by and remain clear of the fridge."
"<sigh>, Yes, thanks Mum"
tank slapper said:
The use of over means indicates that the transmission is over and you are waiting for a reply. As I mentioned above, the reason for calling before making a request is that you need to attract the receiving stations attention. On a boat, you generally are only paying cursory attention to the radio, so might miss a transmission that launches straight into its message. You also are not guaranteed to be in radio range - marine VHF can vary between 10 and 30ish miles depending on whether you are using a hand held radio, or have a normal set with the aerial at the top of a 60 foot mast.
While some of the practices appear odd, there is usually a good reason for them that only becomes apparent when conditions are less than perfect. There is considerable scope for misunderstanding when using a radio that you don't tend to get with a telephone call, so the slightly formal style helps minimise that. Obviously, if you are just trying to arrange a time to go ashore for a pint with the boat across the anchorage it needn't be quite like that, but if you use it properly most of the time then when you do actually have to make a mayday call the chances are better you are going to be understood.
^^^ As he says, on ships there is a need to first attract the attention of the station you are calling, as they may be away from the VHF at the chart table, in the bathroom, on the bridge wing etc. and then deliver the message once you have the right person.While some of the practices appear odd, there is usually a good reason for them that only becomes apparent when conditions are less than perfect. There is considerable scope for misunderstanding when using a radio that you don't tend to get with a telephone call, so the slightly formal style helps minimise that. Obviously, if you are just trying to arrange a time to go ashore for a pint with the boat across the anchorage it needn't be quite like that, but if you use it properly most of the time then when you do actually have to make a mayday call the chances are better you are going to be understood.
Try saying just "let go the anchor" on channel 15, 17, or any other VHF channel that ships are using for internal comms in Singapore, without identifying your vessel, and see what happens!
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