Discussion
Okay so a quick appeal to the wisdom of the PH masses...I've now done two consecutive batches of NEIPA that are almost entirely absent hop flavour and aroma and I have literally no idea why despite my first NEIPA which was brewed in largely the same way but without the benefit of pressure being much hoppier.
> Both have been partial mashes using a mixtures of wheat malt extract, Maris Otter, malted wheat, malted oats, flaked oats and torrified wheat.
> Both have had small (c 10g) bittering charges
> Both have had circa 200g of hops in the whirlpool at 70c
> Both have been double dry hopped with a total of about 300g hops, once at high krausen and once as fermentation winds down...
Here are the real kickers though:
> Both have been fermented under pressure of circa 10psi
> Both have been closed transferred into a CO2 purged keg
> Both have been burst carbonated and served straight from the keg with no exposure to oxygen.
With each one, I've had a glorious smelling and tasting beer during initial transfer, accumulated loads of citrus and tropical fruit flavours along with a metric f
ktonne of hop burn during dry hopping, and ended up with a finished beer which has at best mild sweet hints of citrus and pineapple but mostly tastes a bit bland.
This second one is definitely better than the first failure, likely because I've got a second fridge now and can properly cold crash, but still...
Anyone got any bright ideas?
> Both have been partial mashes using a mixtures of wheat malt extract, Maris Otter, malted wheat, malted oats, flaked oats and torrified wheat.
> Both have had small (c 10g) bittering charges
> Both have had circa 200g of hops in the whirlpool at 70c
> Both have been double dry hopped with a total of about 300g hops, once at high krausen and once as fermentation winds down...
Here are the real kickers though:
> Both have been fermented under pressure of circa 10psi
> Both have been closed transferred into a CO2 purged keg
> Both have been burst carbonated and served straight from the keg with no exposure to oxygen.
With each one, I've had a glorious smelling and tasting beer during initial transfer, accumulated loads of citrus and tropical fruit flavours along with a metric f
ktonne of hop burn during dry hopping, and ended up with a finished beer which has at best mild sweet hints of citrus and pineapple but mostly tastes a bit bland.This second one is definitely better than the first failure, likely because I've got a second fridge now and can properly cold crash, but still...
Anyone got any bright ideas?
marksx said:
I've never tasted or made a neipa, so difficult to comment. To get an idea of timeline am I right in thinking you're drinking as soon as dry hops are out and you've kegged it? Same day?
That rules out aging as a factor
In terms of timeframes I typically try the beer every 2 days until the hop burn has died down. In terms of typical "flow":That rules out aging as a factor
Day 0 beer enters fermenter and yeast pitched
Day 1 fermenter hits 10psi
Day 2 first dry hop
Day 5 pressure released, trub drained (zero oxygen) and second dry hop
Day 7 fermentation complete
Day 9 closed transfer to keg and cold crash
Day 12 cold crash completed and beer sampled
The oldest dry hop has been in the fermenter less than 10 days and the second, larger charge 5 or less.
Edited by HM-2 on Tuesday 25th May 21:51
Im the head brewer at a small microbrewery,so thought I'd add my 2 cents. Although I'm certainly no brewing god ha!
We and the vast majority of Breweries (Verdant etc) now no longer dry hop during active fermentation. Read up on something called dry hop creep if you want to know more on why this is.
Also, when you dry hop during fermentation and even the tail end of fermentation, most of the extremely volatile aromas you're trying to infuse into the beer are vanishing straight out of the airlock. As well as this, hop oils and compounds which we want in the beer, bond with yeast. Only to then fall out of solution during the cold crash phase.
At our brewery, we ferment and raise the temperature a couple of degrees during the last 35% of fermentation to help with diacetyl consumption (diacetyl rest).
If we get two gravity readings the same on consecutive days and detect no diacetyl, we then perform a soft cold crash to 14C for 24-48 hours. This achieves 2 things: firstly, it drops out the majority of yeast still in suspension. Secondly, it massively reduces the chances of dry hop creep as the problematic enzymes are far less active at 14C than they are at 20C+.
We then dry hop for no longer than 4 days (3 usually) rousing the dry hops every 24 hours. You can do this on a homebrew scale by swirling your fermenter gently. We then cold crash for 2/3 days and package.
Hope this wasn't too technical, and if you're keen on brewing modern hoppy beers, buy 'The New IPA' by Scott Janish. It's an incredible modern day brewing Bible.
We and the vast majority of Breweries (Verdant etc) now no longer dry hop during active fermentation. Read up on something called dry hop creep if you want to know more on why this is.
Also, when you dry hop during fermentation and even the tail end of fermentation, most of the extremely volatile aromas you're trying to infuse into the beer are vanishing straight out of the airlock. As well as this, hop oils and compounds which we want in the beer, bond with yeast. Only to then fall out of solution during the cold crash phase.
At our brewery, we ferment and raise the temperature a couple of degrees during the last 35% of fermentation to help with diacetyl consumption (diacetyl rest).
If we get two gravity readings the same on consecutive days and detect no diacetyl, we then perform a soft cold crash to 14C for 24-48 hours. This achieves 2 things: firstly, it drops out the majority of yeast still in suspension. Secondly, it massively reduces the chances of dry hop creep as the problematic enzymes are far less active at 14C than they are at 20C+.
We then dry hop for no longer than 4 days (3 usually) rousing the dry hops every 24 hours. You can do this on a homebrew scale by swirling your fermenter gently. We then cold crash for 2/3 days and package.
Hope this wasn't too technical, and if you're keen on brewing modern hoppy beers, buy 'The New IPA' by Scott Janish. It's an incredible modern day brewing Bible.
RKi said:
Im the head brewer at a small microbrewery,so thought I'd add my 2 cents. Although I'm certainly no brewing god ha!
We and the vast majority of Breweries (Verdant etc) now no longer dry hop during active fermentation. Read up on something called dry hop creep if you want to know more on why this is.
Also, when you dry hop during fermentation and even the tail end of fermentation, most of the extremely volatile aromas you're trying to infuse into the beer are vanishing straight out of the airlock. As well as this, hop oils and compounds which we want in the beer, bond with yeast. Only to then fall out of solution during the cold crash phase.
At our brewery, we ferment and raise the temperature a couple of degrees during the last 35% of fermentation to help with diacetyl consumption (diacetyl rest).
If we get two gravity readings the same on consecutive days and detect no diacetyl, we then perform a soft cold crash to 14C for 24-48 hours. This achieves 2 things: firstly, it drops out the majority of yeast still in suspension. Secondly, it massively reduces the chances of dry hop creep as the problematic enzymes are far less active at 14C than they are at 20C+.
We then dry hop for no longer than 4 days (3 usually) rousing the dry hops every 24 hours. You can do this on a homebrew scale by swirling your fermenter gently. We then cold crash for 2/3 days and package.
Hope this wasn't too technical, and if you're keen on brewing modern hoppy beers, buy 'The New IPA' by Scott Janish. It's an incredible modern day brewing Bible.
Not too technical at all and in fact exceptionally helpful! I'd heard of dry hop creep and knew that many larger brewers were moving away from hopping during fermentation but there's so much contradictory stuff out there for honebrewers.We and the vast majority of Breweries (Verdant etc) now no longer dry hop during active fermentation. Read up on something called dry hop creep if you want to know more on why this is.
Also, when you dry hop during fermentation and even the tail end of fermentation, most of the extremely volatile aromas you're trying to infuse into the beer are vanishing straight out of the airlock. As well as this, hop oils and compounds which we want in the beer, bond with yeast. Only to then fall out of solution during the cold crash phase.
At our brewery, we ferment and raise the temperature a couple of degrees during the last 35% of fermentation to help with diacetyl consumption (diacetyl rest).
If we get two gravity readings the same on consecutive days and detect no diacetyl, we then perform a soft cold crash to 14C for 24-48 hours. This achieves 2 things: firstly, it drops out the majority of yeast still in suspension. Secondly, it massively reduces the chances of dry hop creep as the problematic enzymes are far less active at 14C than they are at 20C+.
We then dry hop for no longer than 4 days (3 usually) rousing the dry hops every 24 hours. You can do this on a homebrew scale by swirling your fermenter gently. We then cold crash for 2/3 days and package.
Hope this wasn't too technical, and if you're keen on brewing modern hoppy beers, buy 'The New IPA' by Scott Janish. It's an incredible modern day brewing Bible.
I've got a single hop hazy double planned for later in the summer that looks something like this:
65% Maris Otter
13% malted oats
13% wheat malt
5% torrified wheat
4% special biscuit malt
25ibu of Denali in the 60m boil
20ibu of Denali at 15m
60g Denali in an 80°C whirlpool
80g Denali in a 65°C whirlpool
17g/L Denali dry hop
WHC funky pineapple yeast
If I'm understanding you right my workflow after pitching would be:
> Ferment down to target gravity (1.012) and get 2 consistent FG readings.
> Ramp to maybe 24°C as we near that target for diacetyl rest
> Soft crash to maybe 14°C for 2 days
> One massive dry hop addition (which will also necessitate removing the worst of the trub if I do it in my pressure fermenter
> 3 days dry hopping with a rouse every 24H
> Straight off the hop matter and into a keg to cold crash
Edited by HM-2 on Wednesday 26th May 08:33
HM-2 said:
Not too technical at all and in fact exceptionally helpful! I'd heard of dry hop creep and knew that many larger brewers were moving away from hopping during fermentation but there's so much contradictory stuff out there for honebrewers.
I've got a single hop hazy double planned for later in the summer that looks something like this:
65% Maris Otter
13% malted oats
13% wheat malt
5% torrified wheat
4% special biscuit malt
25ibu of Denali in the 60m boil
20ibu of Denali at 15m
60g Denali in an 80°C whirlpool
80g Denali in a 65°C whirlpool
17g/L Denali dry hop
WHC funky pineapple yeast
If I'm understanding you right my workflow after pitching would be:
> Ferment down to target gravity (1.012) and get 2 consistent FG readings.
> Ramp to maybe 24°C as we near that target for diacetyl rest
> Soft crash to maybe 14°C for 2 days
> One massive dry hop addition (which will also necessitate removing the worst of the trub if I do it in my pressure fermenter
> 3 days dry hopping with a rouse every 24H
> Straight off the hop matter and into a keg to cold crash
Yeah that looks good. I'm guessing you're going for a bit more malt character and a beer with a nice Orange hue with that grain bill? Denali/Sultana (they changed the name for some reason...) is a nice hop, although i've found it quite one dimensional (pineapple overload ha). I would cold crash in the FV before transferring to keg, blocked dip tubes are very little fun.I've got a single hop hazy double planned for later in the summer that looks something like this:
65% Maris Otter
13% malted oats
13% wheat malt
5% torrified wheat
4% special biscuit malt
25ibu of Denali in the 60m boil
20ibu of Denali at 15m
60g Denali in an 80°C whirlpool
80g Denali in a 65°C whirlpool
17g/L Denali dry hop
WHC funky pineapple yeast
If I'm understanding you right my workflow after pitching would be:
> Ferment down to target gravity (1.012) and get 2 consistent FG readings.
> Ramp to maybe 24°C as we near that target for diacetyl rest
> Soft crash to maybe 14°C for 2 days
> One massive dry hop addition (which will also necessitate removing the worst of the trub if I do it in my pressure fermenter
> 3 days dry hopping with a rouse every 24H
> Straight off the hop matter and into a keg to cold crash
Edited by HM-2 on Wednesday 26th May 08:33
For what it's worth, i'd sack off the 15m and 65C whirlpool additions and just bang in it all in at 80C, keeps it simple + adding hops below 72C is technically below pasteurization temperature, although i'd be shocked if anything bad resulted from it. IBU-wise, you're looking at around 4% utilization at 80C.
Hopping amounts look good for a DIPA. I tend to go for around 6g/l in the boil, and 20-25 g/l dry hop. I'm also a massive fan of Cryo/Lupomax hops in the dry hop. When using huge amounts of t90 pellets, you're introducing SO much vegetal matter and potential oxygen into the beer. By going 50/50 T90/Cryo or 60/40 T90/Cryo, you get a more complex, less vegetal, lower oxygen beer. Obviously Sultana doesn't come in any form other than T90 or leaf right now though.
Can't emphasize enough how good this book is :]
That IPA book is already at the top of my wishlist 
-Edit-
Looks like London Beer Lab sell cryo hops by the 50g at a not-offensive price! https://www.londonbeerlab.com/search/products?keyw...
RKi said:
I'm guessing you're going for a bit more malt character and a beer with a nice Orange hue with that grain bill?
Pretty much exactly what I'm going for, yes. Slightly bready/biscuity, slight malty sweetness with loads of pineapple tropical hops, resin and funk.RKi said:
I would cold crash in the FV before transferring to keg, blocked dip tubes are very little fun.
I don't think my fermenter fits in my fridge, though I've yet to try. I've got one keg that's equipped with a filtered floating dip tube so I can take stuff off the top without disturbing sediment.RKi said:
For what it's worth, i'd sack off the 15m and 65C whirlpool additions and just bang in it all in at 80C, keeps it simple + adding hops below 72C is technically below pasteurization temperature, although i'd be shocked if anything bad resulted from it.
Noted- thanksRKi said:
I'm also a massive fan of Cryo/Lupomax hops in the dry hop.
I've tried to get cryo hops on several occasions now, but it appears they're simply not sold to consumers in the UK. I'd have to order them from the US and have them shipped here and eBay is pretty much the only option there. Is there some trick I'm missing?-Edit-
Looks like London Beer Lab sell cryo hops by the 50g at a not-offensive price! https://www.londonbeerlab.com/search/products?keyw...
Edited by HM-2 on Wednesday 26th May 13:41
Just to follow up RKi, I've managed to get ahold of Cryo Citra, Mosaic, Ekuanot and Simcoe to the tune of 100g each. The bulk of these I've got earmarked for a future brew but I was thinking of using an ounce or so each of the Citra and Simcoe along with some BRU-1 I've got in the freezer to try and keg hop my failed NEIPA.
I've got a spare 19L corny with a floating dip tube and one of the mesh containers for keg hopping, plus the kit to do closed transfers. Was planning on sanitising and CO2 filling the spare corny, dropping in the hop container and purging a couple of times, then closed transferring onto the hops. Leave it for a few days at serving pressure then get cracking drinking.
I'm hoping the Cryo should limit any vegetal flavours but if I start getting any I'll just closed transfer back to another keg and get the beer off the hops.
Worth a shot you reckon? The base flavours in this batch are really good so it seems a shame not to see if I can up the hoppiness.
I've got a spare 19L corny with a floating dip tube and one of the mesh containers for keg hopping, plus the kit to do closed transfers. Was planning on sanitising and CO2 filling the spare corny, dropping in the hop container and purging a couple of times, then closed transferring onto the hops. Leave it for a few days at serving pressure then get cracking drinking.
I'm hoping the Cryo should limit any vegetal flavours but if I start getting any I'll just closed transfer back to another keg and get the beer off the hops.
Worth a shot you reckon? The base flavours in this batch are really good so it seems a shame not to see if I can up the hoppiness.
HM-2 said:
Just to follow up RKi, I've managed to get ahold of Cryo Citra, Mosaic, Ekuanot and Simcoe to the tune of 100g each. The bulk of these I've got earmarked for a future brew but I was thinking of using an ounce or so each of the Citra and Simcoe along with some BRU-1 I've got in the freezer to try and keg hop my failed NEIPA.
I've got a spare 19L corny with a floating dip tube and one of the mesh containers for keg hopping, plus the kit to do closed transfers. Was planning on sanitising and CO2 filling the spare corny, dropping in the hop container and purging a couple of times, then closed transferring onto the hops. Leave it for a few days at serving pressure then get cracking drinking.
I'm hoping the Cryo should limit any vegetal flavours but if I start getting any I'll just closed transfer back to another keg and get the beer off the hops.
Worth a shot you reckon? The base flavours in this batch are really good so it seems a shame not to see if I can up the hoppiness.
Nothing to lose if its a failed brew I guess.I've got a spare 19L corny with a floating dip tube and one of the mesh containers for keg hopping, plus the kit to do closed transfers. Was planning on sanitising and CO2 filling the spare corny, dropping in the hop container and purging a couple of times, then closed transferring onto the hops. Leave it for a few days at serving pressure then get cracking drinking.
I'm hoping the Cryo should limit any vegetal flavours but if I start getting any I'll just closed transfer back to another keg and get the beer off the hops.
Worth a shot you reckon? The base flavours in this batch are really good so it seems a shame not to see if I can up the hoppiness.
A good tactic is to fill an entire corny with Starsan then push it out with co2, before adding the beer. Technically it should result in mega low o2 levels.
SimonTheSailor said:
Interesting bit of kit. Seems to get good reviews. Might be tempted to take the plunge this summer.RKi said:
HM-2 said:
Just to follow up RKi, I've managed to get ahold of Cryo Citra, Mosaic, Ekuanot and Simcoe to the tune of 100g each. The bulk of these I've got earmarked for a future brew but I was thinking of using an ounce or so each of the Citra and Simcoe along with some BRU-1 I've got in the freezer to try and keg hop my failed NEIPA.
I've got a spare 19L corny with a floating dip tube and one of the mesh containers for keg hopping, plus the kit to do closed transfers. Was planning on sanitising and CO2 filling the spare corny, dropping in the hop container and purging a couple of times, then closed transferring onto the hops. Leave it for a few days at serving pressure then get cracking drinking.
I'm hoping the Cryo should limit any vegetal flavours but if I start getting any I'll just closed transfer back to another keg and get the beer off the hops.
Worth a shot you reckon? The base flavours in this batch are really good so it seems a shame not to see if I can up the hoppiness.
Nothing to lose if its a failed brew I guess.I've got a spare 19L corny with a floating dip tube and one of the mesh containers for keg hopping, plus the kit to do closed transfers. Was planning on sanitising and CO2 filling the spare corny, dropping in the hop container and purging a couple of times, then closed transferring onto the hops. Leave it for a few days at serving pressure then get cracking drinking.
I'm hoping the Cryo should limit any vegetal flavours but if I start getting any I'll just closed transfer back to another keg and get the beer off the hops.
Worth a shot you reckon? The base flavours in this batch are really good so it seems a shame not to see if I can up the hoppiness.
A good tactic is to fill an entire corny with Starsan then push it out with co2, before adding the beer. Technically it should result in mega low o2 levels.
I dropped 25g each of Cryo mosaic and Simcoe plus 50g BRU-1 into my dry hopping tube and dropped into my sanitised and purged spare keg. Will see how it's getting on tonight.
48k said:
SimonTheSailor said:
Interesting bit of kit. Seems to get good reviews. Might be tempted to take the plunge this summer.Edited by HM-2 on Monday 31st May 10:14
marksx said:
It seems like more of a gadget than a serious piece of brewing kit
To be honest it doesn't bother me what the brewing snobs classify it as, if it produces beer with minimal effort with ingredients that get delivered through the letterbox it's a winner in my book. However if the beer tastes rubbish then it's a no from me.48k said:
To be honest it doesn't bother me what the brewing snobs classify it as, if it produces beer with minimal effort with ingredients that get delivered through the letterbox it's a winner in my book. However if the beer tastes rubbish then it's a no from me.
It's basically a pressure barrel with a tap. Dressed up to look cool. It makes liquid malt extract beers for 1.50 a pint. Minimal effort, yes, but I can't see the beer being great and the cost is ridiculous. For the kit and the beer.
Anyone here used WLP644 (Saccharomyces brux-like Trois) before? I'm currently doing an 8% target DIPA with Idaho 7 T90 plus cryo Citra, Mosaic and Eukanot. 40/40/20% split between Maris Otter, wheat malt and malted oats. I have no temp control and pitched a 1.5L starter around 26°C at maybe 6PM and fermentation has taken off like a rocket.
I know 644 can introduce a bit of funk as well as tropical fruits but having not used it before I'm not really sure how to mitigate the funk whilst maximising the fruitiness in the absence of temp control. I was planning on letting fermentation run for a week or so then upping the pressure once I'm within a couple of points of FG to try and balance (as well as mitigating the dryness 644 is reported as producing). Any other tips?
I know 644 can introduce a bit of funk as well as tropical fruits but having not used it before I'm not really sure how to mitigate the funk whilst maximising the fruitiness in the absence of temp control. I was planning on letting fermentation run for a week or so then upping the pressure once I'm within a couple of points of FG to try and balance (as well as mitigating the dryness 644 is reported as producing). Any other tips?
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