Sourdough breadmaking
Discussion
Whoozit said:
Your recipe above works out to 64.6% (yes, I have a sourdough calculator Excel sheet. I'm a PHer of course I've made it all complicated). That's the TOTAL water in the recipe in starter and dough, divided by the TOTAL amount of flour in starter and dough. I've assumed your starter is 1:1.
70% hydration is usually an easy step. That's 256g water. If that's ok, then try 75% = 280g water. Don't skimp on the stretch and folds, they help build gluten strength which is what mostly traps the gasses and gives the bread its rise.
Can you share your spreadsheet please?70% hydration is usually an easy step. That's 256g water. If that's ok, then try 75% = 280g water. Don't skimp on the stretch and folds, they help build gluten strength which is what mostly traps the gasses and gives the bread its rise.
shalmaneser said:
It is indeed a fun challenge! I proof in the fridge for ~8 hours (or however long I sleep). I'm a soft southerner but I hope your house isn't quite as chilly as my fridge...
Ha, sometimes!Is that your first prove? Assuming you take it out, fold then prove for 3 hours or so at room temp?
If you're proving overnight do you feed your starter first thing in the morning then so it's ready later in the evening?
ben5575 said:
Ha, sometimes!
Is that your first prove? Assuming you take it out, fold then prove for 3 hours or so at room temp?
If you're proving overnight do you feed your starter first thing in the morning then so it's ready later in the evening?
I do proving overnight in the fridge most of the time as it's just handy to be able to bake first thing in the morning. I only take it out of the fridge whilst the oven is warming up and then put it in a dutch oven, works a treat every time. Is that your first prove? Assuming you take it out, fold then prove for 3 hours or so at room temp?
If you're proving overnight do you feed your starter first thing in the morning then so it's ready later in the evening?
How are you preparing the dough though? Have you tried the no-kneading method? It takes about 4 hours of slow prep the afternoon/evening before but I've rarely had a bad loaf and I am nowhere near as precise as all the instructions people are posting, I just take 100g of active starter, 300g of water, plus salt and then smash it all together with however much flour is needed!
ben5575 said:
shalmaneser said:
It is indeed a fun challenge! I proof in the fridge for ~8 hours (or however long I sleep). I'm a soft southerner but I hope your house isn't quite as chilly as my fridge...
Ha, sometimes!Is that your first prove? Assuming you take it out, fold then prove for 3 hours or so at room temp?
If you're proving overnight do you feed your starter first thing in the morning then so it's ready later in the evening?
Wake up, starter out of fridge, fresh water and flour added. Normally takes 8 or so hours to double in size, so getting on for evening time by the time it's ready for use. Mix in with all the stuff, stretch and fold until I get a nice windowpane, flour banneton and into the fridge. Wake up, but oven on max and cast iron in, wait for everything to get well up to temp, dough out and onto baking sheet, deep slash and into cast iron/oven for 30mins + 3/4mins browning.
Pretty efficient all things considered.
Thanks guys.
I upped the wet as suggested and went 270ml water, 180g white starter (started in the morning), 5g salt, 400g strong flour.
Kneaded by machine for c.8mins with me finishing it off to window.
Proved 3hrs then in the fridge overnight also as suggested.
Out for 20mins, then in the oven for 30mins at 235 with initial steam burst.
Yeah I'm chuffed with this one. It tastes incredible, lovely and moist. I had to add a little more flour by eye (hand) when I was kneading as it was a little too wet. Has a good crust which is tasty, hard enough to not bend whilst slicing but soft enough not to tear your gums to pieces.
Thanks for all of the help. I now need to limit myself now as I'm eating the best part a loaf a day! Although I'm going to redo the above with the rye starter tonight to see how it goes.
I upped the wet as suggested and went 270ml water, 180g white starter (started in the morning), 5g salt, 400g strong flour.
Kneaded by machine for c.8mins with me finishing it off to window.
Proved 3hrs then in the fridge overnight also as suggested.
Out for 20mins, then in the oven for 30mins at 235 with initial steam burst.
Yeah I'm chuffed with this one. It tastes incredible, lovely and moist. I had to add a little more flour by eye (hand) when I was kneading as it was a little too wet. Has a good crust which is tasty, hard enough to not bend whilst slicing but soft enough not to tear your gums to pieces.
Thanks for all of the help. I now need to limit myself now as I'm eating the best part a loaf a day! Although I'm going to redo the above with the rye starter tonight to see how it goes.
I've been making about 3 loaves a week recently. All going well, though I still suffer somewhat from stodgy dough after cooking.
I've tried more hydration, less hydration and the effects seem the same. I'm going to try and reduce the proving and fermentation times right back and see what happens....then if that doesn't have an effect I'll look at doing more kneading as I usually mix all ingredients together and let time and nature take its course with the gluten.
In the meantime I found a use for discarded starter - crackers!
I used about 350gms of starter, toasted some sesame seeds and mixed them in with some olive oil and salt. Spread on a baking parchment and baked slowly. Came out a bit salty but were a great snack.
I've tried more hydration, less hydration and the effects seem the same. I'm going to try and reduce the proving and fermentation times right back and see what happens....then if that doesn't have an effect I'll look at doing more kneading as I usually mix all ingredients together and let time and nature take its course with the gluten.
In the meantime I found a use for discarded starter - crackers!
I used about 350gms of starter, toasted some sesame seeds and mixed them in with some olive oil and salt. Spread on a baking parchment and baked slowly. Came out a bit salty but were a great snack.
Edited by prand on Monday 15th March 11:10
prand said:
I've been making about 3 loaves a week recently. All going well, though I still suffer somewhat from stodgy dough after cooking.
I've tried more hydration, less hydration and the effects seem the same. I'm going to try and reduce the proving and fermentation times right back and see what happens....then if that doesn't have an effect I'll look at doing more kneading as I usually mix all ingredients together and let time and nature take its course with the gluten.
The stretch and fold approach to kneading makes a real difference. What works for me is do it every 45 minutes for three hours, then wait until the dough feels marshmallowy and the bowl sounds hollow when tapped (maybe 5-5.5 hours in a 20 degree kitchen). Then shape, into a lined floured bowl/basket, and in the fridge overnight. I've tried more hydration, less hydration and the effects seem the same. I'm going to try and reduce the proving and fermentation times right back and see what happens....then if that doesn't have an effect I'll look at doing more kneading as I usually mix all ingredients together and let time and nature take its course with the gluten.
Whoozit said:
The stretch and fold approach to kneading makes a real difference. What works for me is do it every 45 minutes for three hours, then wait until the dough feels marshmallowy and the bowl sounds hollow when tapped (maybe 5-5.5 hours in a 20 degree kitchen). Then shape, into a lined floured bowl/basket, and in the fridge overnight.
Funny you should say that, it's what I did earlier in the week. I followed the guidance from this nice chap - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJEHsvW2J6M. I mixed the flour & water first and rested for 30 mins to autolyse, then mixed the starter and salt in and kneaded. Then, once an hour for three hours did the stretch and fold (and jiggle) each time. Then into the fridge in a banetton for the night. It baked ok - not a huge split & spring, but a good sized rise, the texture was good. It was also much less doughy and on day 2 (for me my test in a successful loaf is whether the loaf's structure is maintained and not too dense after the first day), it was in very good shape and held structure well. Going to try again today - stronger flour this time, and perhaps will do a 45 min time between stretch and fold to get an extra one in before final proving.
prand said:
Whoozit said:
The stretch and fold approach to kneading makes a real difference. What works for me is do it every 45 minutes for three hours, then wait until the dough feels marshmallowy and the bowl sounds hollow when tapped (maybe 5-5.5 hours in a 20 degree kitchen). Then shape, into a lined floured bowl/basket, and in the fridge overnight.
Funny you should say that, it's what I did earlier in the week. I followed the guidance from this nice chap - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJEHsvW2J6M. I mixed the flour & water first and rested for 30 mins to autolyse, then mixed the starter and salt in and kneaded. Then, once an hour for three hours did the stretch and fold (and jiggle) each time. Then into the fridge in a banetton for the night. It baked ok - not a huge split & spring, but a good sized rise, the texture was good. It was also much less doughy and on day 2 (for me my test in a successful loaf is whether the loaf's structure is maintained and not too dense after the first day), it was in very good shape and held structure well. Going to try again today - stronger flour this time, and perhaps will do a 45 min time between stretch and fold to get an extra one in before final proving.
Might not win any prizes but it takes about 5 minutes actual work spread over 2-3 hours plus baking time in an Aldi sauce pan with lid.
I must admit I just weigh/chuck everything (180g starter, 400g canadian very strong flour, 280ml water, 5g salt) into a mixing bowl and blitz with a dough hook for 1 min on a low speed, 4 mins on a high speed and 3 mins on top speed as it bounces all over the place.
Take it out, add a little flour if it's too wet, normally have a good window but play around a little longer if it doesn't. Marshmallow is exactly the right description. It goes matte when it's ready. Drag/shape into a ball and prove in a bowl with a damp tea towel over for 3hrs in the kitchen as helpfully guided above.
Remove, fold bottom/side/top/side then flip and drag/shape in to a ball. Then upside down in to a bowl etc under damp towel in fridge overnight for about 10 hours. Then slice cook for 30mins at 235 with one burst of steam.
Thanks to all of the excellent advice I've had over the last couple of pages, I have it off pat now with minimal effort and time.
Do you heat the tray you cook it on when you warm up the oven (as opposed to put the dough on a cold baking tray)?
Take it out, add a little flour if it's too wet, normally have a good window but play around a little longer if it doesn't. Marshmallow is exactly the right description. It goes matte when it's ready. Drag/shape into a ball and prove in a bowl with a damp tea towel over for 3hrs in the kitchen as helpfully guided above.
Remove, fold bottom/side/top/side then flip and drag/shape in to a ball. Then upside down in to a bowl etc under damp towel in fridge overnight for about 10 hours. Then slice cook for 30mins at 235 with one burst of steam.
Thanks to all of the excellent advice I've had over the last couple of pages, I have it off pat now with minimal effort and time.
Do you heat the tray you cook it on when you warm up the oven (as opposed to put the dough on a cold baking tray)?
ben5575 said:
I must admit I just weigh/chuck everything (180g starter, 400g canadian very strong flour, 280ml water, 5g salt) into a mixing bowl and blitz with a dough hook for 1 min on a low speed, 4 mins on a high speed and 3 mins on top speed as it bounces all over the place.
Take it out, add a little flour if it's too wet, normally have a good window but play around a little longer if it doesn't. Marshmallow is exactly the right description. It goes matte when it's ready. Drag/shape into a ball and prove in a bowl with a damp tea towel over for 3hrs in the kitchen as helpfully guided above.
Remove, fold bottom/side/top/side then flip and drag/shape in to a ball. Then upside down in to a bowl etc under damp towel in fridge overnight for about 10 hours. Then slice cook for 30mins at 235 with one burst of steam.
Thanks to all of the excellent advice I've had over the last couple of pages, I have it off pat now with minimal effort and time.
Do you heat the tray you cook it on when you warm up the oven (as opposed to put the dough on a cold baking tray)?
I'll see how I do with this latest loaf - which will be a bit more kneading that just a quick hand mix as I was doing before, and not so long with pre-fridge prove. I know what you mean about marshmallow though - good to know that's what I'm aiming for.Take it out, add a little flour if it's too wet, normally have a good window but play around a little longer if it doesn't. Marshmallow is exactly the right description. It goes matte when it's ready. Drag/shape into a ball and prove in a bowl with a damp tea towel over for 3hrs in the kitchen as helpfully guided above.
Remove, fold bottom/side/top/side then flip and drag/shape in to a ball. Then upside down in to a bowl etc under damp towel in fridge overnight for about 10 hours. Then slice cook for 30mins at 235 with one burst of steam.
Thanks to all of the excellent advice I've had over the last couple of pages, I have it off pat now with minimal effort and time.
Do you heat the tray you cook it on when you warm up the oven (as opposed to put the dough on a cold baking tray)?
I bake mine in a Le Creuset cast iron pot, which is pre heated with the oven, keeps it in a nice shape and crust.
21TOnyK - yours looks great - I guess you use lower hydration? I like big air bubbles so use more water in the mix.
prand said:
21TOnyK - yours looks great - I guess you use lower hydration? I like big air bubbles so use more water in the mix.
Didn't weigh anything on this one but it was less sticky than other times so yes, less water or starter. I'll be doing another tomorrow and will weigh it all up as I go.ben5575 said:
I must admit I just weigh/chuck everything (180g starter, 400g canadian very strong flour, 280ml water, 5g salt) into a mixing bowl and blitz with a dough hook for 1 min on a low speed, 4 mins on a high speed and 3 mins on top speed as it bounces all over the place.
Take it out, add a little flour if it's too wet, normally have a good window but play around a little longer if it doesn't. Marshmallow is exactly the right description. It goes matte when it's ready. Drag/shape into a ball and prove in a bowl with a damp tea towel over for 3hrs in the kitchen as helpfully guided above.
Remove, fold bottom/side/top/side then flip and drag/shape in to a ball. Then upside down in to a bowl etc under damp towel in fridge overnight for about 10 hours. Then slice cook for 30mins at 235 with one burst of steam.
Thanks to all of the excellent advice I've had over the last couple of pages, I have it off pat now with minimal effort and time.
Do you heat the tray you cook it on when you warm up the oven (as opposed to put the dough on a cold baking tray)?
I'm definitely with you on the chuck everything in method. Mine is just 100g starter, 300g water, then whatever amount of Canadian flour to get the right texture - probably about 500g. Then leave it an hour before adding salt, then stretch and fold every 30 mins for 2 hours, into a basket in the fridge overnight and then into a PREHEATED casserole dish for 20 mins with lid on then 20 mins lid off, down at 210 - get great results every time.Take it out, add a little flour if it's too wet, normally have a good window but play around a little longer if it doesn't. Marshmallow is exactly the right description. It goes matte when it's ready. Drag/shape into a ball and prove in a bowl with a damp tea towel over for 3hrs in the kitchen as helpfully guided above.
Remove, fold bottom/side/top/side then flip and drag/shape in to a ball. Then upside down in to a bowl etc under damp towel in fridge overnight for about 10 hours. Then slice cook for 30mins at 235 with one burst of steam.
Thanks to all of the excellent advice I've had over the last couple of pages, I have it off pat now with minimal effort and time.
Do you heat the tray you cook it on when you warm up the oven (as opposed to put the dough on a cold baking tray)?
Bowside said:
ben5575 said:
I must admit I just weigh/chuck everything (180g starter, 400g canadian very strong flour, 280ml water, 5g salt) into a mixing bowl and blitz with a dough hook for 1 min on a low speed, 4 mins on a high speed and 3 mins on top speed as it bounces all over the place.
Take it out, add a little flour if it's too wet, normally have a good window but play around a little longer if it doesn't. Marshmallow is exactly the right description. It goes matte when it's ready. Drag/shape into a ball and prove in a bowl with a damp tea towel over for 3hrs in the kitchen as helpfully guided above.
Remove, fold bottom/side/top/side then flip and drag/shape in to a ball. Then upside down in to a bowl etc under damp towel in fridge overnight for about 10 hours. Then slice cook for 30mins at 235 with one burst of steam.
Thanks to all of the excellent advice I've had over the last couple of pages, I have it off pat now with minimal effort and time.
Do you heat the tray you cook it on when you warm up the oven (as opposed to put the dough on a cold baking tray)?
I'm definitely with you on the chuck everything in method. Mine is just 100g starter, 300g water, then whatever amount of Canadian flour to get the right texture - probably about 500g. Then leave it an hour before adding salt, then stretch and fold every 30 mins for 2 hours, into a basket in the fridge overnight and then into a PREHEATED casserole dish for 20 mins with lid on then 20 mins lid off, down at 210 - get great results every time.Take it out, add a little flour if it's too wet, normally have a good window but play around a little longer if it doesn't. Marshmallow is exactly the right description. It goes matte when it's ready. Drag/shape into a ball and prove in a bowl with a damp tea towel over for 3hrs in the kitchen as helpfully guided above.
Remove, fold bottom/side/top/side then flip and drag/shape in to a ball. Then upside down in to a bowl etc under damp towel in fridge overnight for about 10 hours. Then slice cook for 30mins at 235 with one burst of steam.
Thanks to all of the excellent advice I've had over the last couple of pages, I have it off pat now with minimal effort and time.
Do you heat the tray you cook it on when you warm up the oven (as opposed to put the dough on a cold baking tray)?
Then knock back with a touch of flour and into the banneton over night and 28mins on 225 in the steam oven on fan+steam level 3.
One thing I must add is I pre-heat the oven and cook it on a pizza stone.
Sourdough pizza. Made with a leaven incorporating my regular starter and 00 flour then 00 flour and salt. Going for thin and crispy but still plenty of blistering
Cooked in oven on steel. Dough very wet - not sure if suitable for outdoor pizza oven
Edited by oddman on Monday 5th April 19:21
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