waiter unhappy with tip
Discussion
I'm strongly in the non-tipping camp, and it's funny to see the righteous anger of those who support tipping.
When I worked in bars and restaurants years ago the biggest tippers were invariably the Flash Harry types - the "I am considerably richer than you" type who bought £200 bottles of wine just to show off.
They nearly always paid in cash, and most of them dealt in cash which never suffered the indignity of being processed in an accounting system. People who are taxed on their income tend to think a bit more before spending it.
But the whole principle of tipping is utterly wrong. In the majority of cases tips aren't given out of generosity, as the giver feels obliged to pay. If they were truly generous people they would give tips to everyone who carried out a service for them, which they clearly don't.
It's just a horrible master and servant relic of feudal days, when the squire would give the local village children a shilling at Christmas. It's degrading for both the giver, playing Lord Bountiful, and the receiver, who's supposed to be humbly grateful for the great man's kindness.
And as has been said, it can very easily create a hostile relationship if the receiver expects more than the giver is happy to pay.
The argument that it enables waiters to earn a reasonable wage is absurd in the UK where there’s a legal minimum wage of a reasonable amount. I know that most PH'ers wouldn't get out of bed for it, but millions of people do, and they don't expect additional payments from the people they deal with, so what makes waiters a special case?
And black cab fares are already extortionate, so what on earth makes a cab driver feel entitled to yet more cash when in 99% of cases he's done nothing more than drive you from A to B – precisely what he was paid to do? Why doesn’t a bus driver or a train driver get a tip?
The point is that we are all entitled as of right to a good standard of service, whatever service it is that we're buying. We shouldn’t feel obliged to pay extra to get what should be standard, but in practice we do, and we're made to feel guilty for not paying what is, in effect, a bribe.
Unfortunately, it's probably not practicable to outlaw tipping, but it could and should be made illegal to add a service charge. Restaurant pricing should be completely transparent, as it is in most other walks of life. The price on the menu should be the price you pay, end of. If some people want to show off / patronise the staff / try to make a waiter like them then fine - but it should be the exception rather than the rule, and it should be seen as a bit weird, like tipping a bank clerk.
It's interesting to see the history of tipping, which has its roots in discrimination against blacks in the US. After the liberation of the slaves unscrupulous employers wanted to take ex-slaves on as waiters but they didn’t want to pay them, instead forcing them to live on tips. Tipping was therefore made illegal by an enlightened US Government, but proved unworkable when Prohibition was introduced, due to the loss of revenue on alcohol.
But the reason that tipping is so endemic, and at such high levels in the US is because of the political lobbying power of big hotel and catering corporations. They – and most other large corporations - have fought tooth and nail against minimum wages, and they’ve managed to keep the federal minimum wage to a measly $7.25 per hour.
But they’ve done even better than that in many states. I was astonished to see that in those states they classify certain trades, including waiting, as trades where tips are routinely given, and the federal minimum wage for those trades is then reduced from $7.25 per hour to the absolutely pathetic rate of $2.13 per hour!
More information here for those who are interested - https://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tipping...
So US waiters really do need tips simply to earn anything like a living wage. But the USA is a horribly corrupt and inhuman country that routinely treats poor people like s
t, and that argument just doesn't hold water in relatively civilised countries such as the UK that do impose a `liveable-on’ minimum wage.
When I worked in bars and restaurants years ago the biggest tippers were invariably the Flash Harry types - the "I am considerably richer than you" type who bought £200 bottles of wine just to show off.
They nearly always paid in cash, and most of them dealt in cash which never suffered the indignity of being processed in an accounting system. People who are taxed on their income tend to think a bit more before spending it.
But the whole principle of tipping is utterly wrong. In the majority of cases tips aren't given out of generosity, as the giver feels obliged to pay. If they were truly generous people they would give tips to everyone who carried out a service for them, which they clearly don't.
It's just a horrible master and servant relic of feudal days, when the squire would give the local village children a shilling at Christmas. It's degrading for both the giver, playing Lord Bountiful, and the receiver, who's supposed to be humbly grateful for the great man's kindness.
And as has been said, it can very easily create a hostile relationship if the receiver expects more than the giver is happy to pay.
The argument that it enables waiters to earn a reasonable wage is absurd in the UK where there’s a legal minimum wage of a reasonable amount. I know that most PH'ers wouldn't get out of bed for it, but millions of people do, and they don't expect additional payments from the people they deal with, so what makes waiters a special case?
And black cab fares are already extortionate, so what on earth makes a cab driver feel entitled to yet more cash when in 99% of cases he's done nothing more than drive you from A to B – precisely what he was paid to do? Why doesn’t a bus driver or a train driver get a tip?
The point is that we are all entitled as of right to a good standard of service, whatever service it is that we're buying. We shouldn’t feel obliged to pay extra to get what should be standard, but in practice we do, and we're made to feel guilty for not paying what is, in effect, a bribe.
Unfortunately, it's probably not practicable to outlaw tipping, but it could and should be made illegal to add a service charge. Restaurant pricing should be completely transparent, as it is in most other walks of life. The price on the menu should be the price you pay, end of. If some people want to show off / patronise the staff / try to make a waiter like them then fine - but it should be the exception rather than the rule, and it should be seen as a bit weird, like tipping a bank clerk.
It's interesting to see the history of tipping, which has its roots in discrimination against blacks in the US. After the liberation of the slaves unscrupulous employers wanted to take ex-slaves on as waiters but they didn’t want to pay them, instead forcing them to live on tips. Tipping was therefore made illegal by an enlightened US Government, but proved unworkable when Prohibition was introduced, due to the loss of revenue on alcohol.
But the reason that tipping is so endemic, and at such high levels in the US is because of the political lobbying power of big hotel and catering corporations. They – and most other large corporations - have fought tooth and nail against minimum wages, and they’ve managed to keep the federal minimum wage to a measly $7.25 per hour.
But they’ve done even better than that in many states. I was astonished to see that in those states they classify certain trades, including waiting, as trades where tips are routinely given, and the federal minimum wage for those trades is then reduced from $7.25 per hour to the absolutely pathetic rate of $2.13 per hour!
More information here for those who are interested - https://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tipping...
So US waiters really do need tips simply to earn anything like a living wage. But the USA is a horribly corrupt and inhuman country that routinely treats poor people like s
t, and that argument just doesn't hold water in relatively civilised countries such as the UK that do impose a `liveable-on’ minimum wage.Pro Bono said:
I'm strongly in the non-tipping camp, and it's funny to see the righteous anger of those who support tipping.
When I worked in bars and restaurants years ago the biggest tippers were invariably the Flash Harry types - the "I am considerably richer than you" type who bought £200 bottles of wine just to show off.
They nearly always paid in cash, and most of them dealt in cash which never suffered the indignity of being processed in an accounting system. People who are taxed on their income tend to think a bit more before spending it.
But the whole principle of tipping is utterly wrong. In the majority of cases tips aren't given out of generosity, as the giver feels obliged to pay. If they were truly generous people they would give tips to everyone who carried out a service for them, which they clearly don't.
It's just a horrible master and servant relic of feudal days, when the squire would give the local village children a shilling at Christmas. It's degrading for both the giver, playing Lord Bountiful, and the receiver, who's supposed to be humbly grateful for the great man's kindness.
And as has been said, it can very easily create a hostile relationship if the receiver expects more than the giver is happy to pay.
The argument that it enables waiters to earn a reasonable wage is absurd in the UK where there’s a legal minimum wage of a reasonable amount. I know that most PH'ers wouldn't get out of bed for it, but millions of people do, and they don't expect additional payments from the people they deal with, so what makes waiters a special case?
And black cab fares are already extortionate, so what on earth makes a cab driver feel entitled to yet more cash when in 99% of cases he's done nothing more than drive you from A to B – precisely what he was paid to do? Why doesn’t a bus driver or a train driver get a tip?
The point is that we are all entitled as of right to a good standard of service, whatever service it is that we're buying. We shouldn’t feel obliged to pay extra to get what should be standard, but in practice we do, and we're made to feel guilty for not paying what is, in effect, a bribe.
Unfortunately, it's probably not practicable to outlaw tipping, but it could and should be made illegal to add a service charge. Restaurant pricing should be completely transparent, as it is in most other walks of life. The price on the menu should be the price you pay, end of. If some people want to show off / patronise the staff / try to make a waiter like them then fine - but it should be the exception rather than the rule, and it should be seen as a bit weird, like tipping a bank clerk.
It's interesting to see the history of tipping, which has its roots in discrimination against blacks in the US. After the liberation of the slaves unscrupulous employers wanted to take ex-slaves on as waiters but they didn’t want to pay them, instead forcing them to live on tips. Tipping was therefore made illegal by an enlightened US Government, but proved unworkable when Prohibition was introduced, due to the loss of revenue on alcohol.
But the reason that tipping is so endemic, and at such high levels in the US is because of the political lobbying power of big hotel and catering corporations. They – and most other large corporations - have fought tooth and nail against minimum wages, and they’ve managed to keep the federal minimum wage to a measly $7.25 per hour.
But they’ve done even better than that in many states. I was astonished to see that in those states they classify certain trades, including waiting, as trades where tips are routinely given, and the federal minimum wage for those trades is then reduced from $7.25 per hour to the absolutely pathetic rate of $2.13 per hour!
More information here for those who are interested - https://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tipping...
So US waiters really do need tips simply to earn anything like a living wage. But the USA is a horribly corrupt and inhuman country that routinely treats poor people like st, and that argument just doesn't hold water in relatively civilised countries such as the UK that do impose a `liveable-on’ minimum wage.
Well said, though I fear you are about to be slaughtered by those who see nothing wrong in tipping, regardless of the quality of service.When I worked in bars and restaurants years ago the biggest tippers were invariably the Flash Harry types - the "I am considerably richer than you" type who bought £200 bottles of wine just to show off.
They nearly always paid in cash, and most of them dealt in cash which never suffered the indignity of being processed in an accounting system. People who are taxed on their income tend to think a bit more before spending it.
But the whole principle of tipping is utterly wrong. In the majority of cases tips aren't given out of generosity, as the giver feels obliged to pay. If they were truly generous people they would give tips to everyone who carried out a service for them, which they clearly don't.
It's just a horrible master and servant relic of feudal days, when the squire would give the local village children a shilling at Christmas. It's degrading for both the giver, playing Lord Bountiful, and the receiver, who's supposed to be humbly grateful for the great man's kindness.
And as has been said, it can very easily create a hostile relationship if the receiver expects more than the giver is happy to pay.
The argument that it enables waiters to earn a reasonable wage is absurd in the UK where there’s a legal minimum wage of a reasonable amount. I know that most PH'ers wouldn't get out of bed for it, but millions of people do, and they don't expect additional payments from the people they deal with, so what makes waiters a special case?
And black cab fares are already extortionate, so what on earth makes a cab driver feel entitled to yet more cash when in 99% of cases he's done nothing more than drive you from A to B – precisely what he was paid to do? Why doesn’t a bus driver or a train driver get a tip?
The point is that we are all entitled as of right to a good standard of service, whatever service it is that we're buying. We shouldn’t feel obliged to pay extra to get what should be standard, but in practice we do, and we're made to feel guilty for not paying what is, in effect, a bribe.
Unfortunately, it's probably not practicable to outlaw tipping, but it could and should be made illegal to add a service charge. Restaurant pricing should be completely transparent, as it is in most other walks of life. The price on the menu should be the price you pay, end of. If some people want to show off / patronise the staff / try to make a waiter like them then fine - but it should be the exception rather than the rule, and it should be seen as a bit weird, like tipping a bank clerk.
It's interesting to see the history of tipping, which has its roots in discrimination against blacks in the US. After the liberation of the slaves unscrupulous employers wanted to take ex-slaves on as waiters but they didn’t want to pay them, instead forcing them to live on tips. Tipping was therefore made illegal by an enlightened US Government, but proved unworkable when Prohibition was introduced, due to the loss of revenue on alcohol.
But the reason that tipping is so endemic, and at such high levels in the US is because of the political lobbying power of big hotel and catering corporations. They – and most other large corporations - have fought tooth and nail against minimum wages, and they’ve managed to keep the federal minimum wage to a measly $7.25 per hour.
But they’ve done even better than that in many states. I was astonished to see that in those states they classify certain trades, including waiting, as trades where tips are routinely given, and the federal minimum wage for those trades is then reduced from $7.25 per hour to the absolutely pathetic rate of $2.13 per hour!
More information here for those who are interested - https://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tipping...
So US waiters really do need tips simply to earn anything like a living wage. But the USA is a horribly corrupt and inhuman country that routinely treats poor people like s
t, and that argument just doesn't hold water in relatively civilised countries such as the UK that do impose a `liveable-on’ minimum wage.Pro Bono said:
I'm strongly in the non-tipping camp, and it's funny to see the righteous anger of those who support tipping.
The righteous anger emanates solely from the skinflint ranting gammons railing against the well established norm of tipping.When we cut to the chase what you and others are arguing for is conspiring to reduce the take home wages of some of the lowest paid workers in society. It's sad.
The Mad Monk said:
Pro Bono said:
A whole load of stuff about tipping being basically wrong and immoral. At least I think that's what he said.
I quite agree. People should be paid a proper wage.There is loads of work out there,. Why do people continue to do these rubbish, demeaning jobs?
1) lack of skills
2) good flexibility
3) perhaps with tips they earn quite well at times
4) availability of waiting jobs there are quite a lot of them
Olivera said:
The righteous anger emanates solely from the skinflint ranting gammons railing against the well established norm of tipping.
When we cut to the chase what you and others are arguing for is conspiring to reduce the take home wages of some of the lowest paid workers in society. It's sad.
what utter bWhen we cut to the chase what you and others are arguing for is conspiring to reduce the take home wages of some of the lowest paid workers in society. It's sad.
ksThe Mad Monk said:
I quite agree. People should be paid a proper wage.
There is loads of work out there,. Why do people continue to do these rubbish, demeaning jobs?
its only demeaning as you are making it demeaning. there are a million reasons why people might want to do it and some waiting jobs have very good career paths. in other countries its a profession. id recommend you watch the awesome series on bbc at the mo the "remarkable places to eat". its a job that should be paid the correct amount. without the need for demeaning tips.There is loads of work out there,. Why do people continue to do these rubbish, demeaning jobs?
The Mad Monk said:
Pro Bono said:
A whole load of stuff about tipping being basically wrong and immoral. At least I think that's what he said.
I quite agree. People should be paid a proper wage.There is loads of work out there,. Why do people continue to do these rubbish, demeaning jobs?
. It's having to deal with rubbish/abusive people that make service jobs rubbish and demeaning.My partner is a chef and I know many people who've made a career out of working in restaurants and bars because they love the work.
ZedLeg said:
My partner is a chef and I know many people who've made a career out of working in restaurants and bars because they love the work.
Why do we only tip the waiting staff?. Surely everyone else working in the restaurant is contributing to the meal and environment from the chef to the dishwasher, but we don’t tip them why not?Cotty said:
Why do we only tip the waiting staff?. Surely everyone else working in the restaurant is contributing to the meal and environment from the chef to the dishwasher, but we don’t tip them why not?
most restaurants you do as it goes to everyone - including very well paid managersCotty said:
ZedLeg said:
My partner is a chef and I know many people who've made a career out of working in restaurants and bars because they love the work.
Why do we only tip the waiting staff?. Surely everyone else working in the restaurant is contributing to the meal and environment from the chef to the dishwasher, but we don’t tip them why not?petemurphy said:
Cotty said:
Why do we only tip the waiting staff?. Surely everyone else working in the restaurant is contributing to the meal and environment from the chef to the dishwasher, but we don’t tip them why not?
most restaurants you do as it goes to everyone - including very well paid managersHow much do you think chefs get paid? Head chefs at high end restaurants get a good salary but line chefs or chefs at your run of the mill pubs and restaurants aren't on particularly high wages.
I'm not going to get sucked back into this, I said all I wanted to say about tipping in the thread we had on it last week.
I'm not going to get sucked back into this, I said all I wanted to say about tipping in the thread we had on it last week
.ZedLeg said:
How much do you think chefs get paid? Head chefs at high end restaurants get a good salary but line chefs or chefs at your run of the mill pubs and restaurants aren't on particularly high wages.
I'm not going to get sucked back into this, I said all I wanted to say about tipping in the thread we had on it last week.
ah youre so back into this I'm not going to get sucked back into this, I said all I wanted to say about tipping in the thread we had on it last week
.
chefs round me get very well paid although yes im sure theres a lot of ste pubs where they are not but they still dont deserve a tip!Ah, at the end of the day I tip and I think people should tip if they get good service and have the opportunity. Whether it's leaving 10% on a restaurant bill, buying a bar person a drink, telling a delivery driver to keep the change or chucking a quid in a tip jar when you see one.
Some places specifically say not to tip and that's cool. I know a few places that pay the living wage and either suggest a charitable donation or something like that. One place runs a pay it forward service where the money you would tip goes into a fund to cover free meals for people who are struggling.
Whether you tip or don't tip is your decision.
I look forward to next week's thread.
Some places specifically say not to tip and that's cool. I know a few places that pay the living wage and either suggest a charitable donation or something like that. One place runs a pay it forward service where the money you would tip goes into a fund to cover free meals for people who are struggling.
Whether you tip or don't tip is your decision.
I look forward to next week's thread
.Edited by ZedLeg on Tuesday 20th August 12:34
nonsequitur said:
Cotty said:
ZedLeg said:
My partner is a chef and I know many people who've made a career out of working in restaurants and bars because they love the work.
Why do we only tip the waiting staff?. Surely everyone else working in the restaurant is contributing to the meal and environment from the chef to the dishwasher, but we don’t tip them why not?Gassing Station | Food, Drink & Restaurants | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff