Knife set - £1k budget

[Escy]

What's the best knife for poking holes in the top of my microwave meals?

[21TonyK]

Escy said:

What's the best knife for poking holes in the top of my microwave meals?

A fork four holes, same effort.

Try to keep up.

[dickymint]

For a thousand pounds i'll give you a full days knife sharpening lesson and throw in a freebie set of knives

[zygalski]

Gandahar said:

"The essential all-rounder and a must-have for every cook or chef."

Complete bks

Must have?

I'd rather buy the oven version of the Pelaton bike that buy this sort of pap.


Let's face it, when you serve your Chrismas plates up on the 25th nobody ain't going to say

"Wow, look at the slicing on that carrot, no tearing, you really have delivered this year ..."

I love cooking, and I like my knives. But it's a means to an end

Nobody else cares .... they use their old fashioned teeth at the end of the day no matter how expensively you cut it up

But what happens when the dinner guests make their way into your local company bespoke kitchen and discover you've used a Victorinox to cut the x's in the sprouts... Can you imagine what the discussions will be like once the guests have departed?
You need a decent knife set to casually leave out to avoid such disasters. Tucked away but still visible with a quick perusal. £1k to avoid such shame? It's a little price to pay.

[cbmotorsport]

Gandahar said:

21TonyK said:

cbmotorsport said:

Have a look at Savernake if you really want to splurge. :-)

Wow, some (all) of those are proper nice. Maybe one day, but definitely not work knives!

"The essential all-rounder and a must-have for every cook or chef."

Complete bks

Must have?

I'd rather buy the oven version of the Pelaton bike that buy this sort of pap.


Let's face it, when you serve your Chrismas plates up on the 25th nobody ain't going to say

"Wow, look at the slicing on that carrot, no tearing, you really have delivered this year ..."

I love cooking, and I like my knives. But it's a means to an end

Nobody else cares .... they use their old fashioned teeth at the end of the day no matter how expensively you cut it up

Think you're missing the point and not reading the thread. The OP wants to spend £1000 on a knife set, which is completely pointless if you wish to use them in earnest, as both Tony and I have said.

He also wants something to remember his Grandmother by, so If he wants to spendthat sort of money on knives, a handmade 'trophy' knife or knives like a Savernake fits the bill.

The marketing you quote is just that, marketing, every company does it. :-)

[DoubleD]

The OP would be better getting some training so that he actually knows how to properly use a knife, but he doesn't seem interested in that.

[Prohibiting]

After reading this thread it gave me the motiviation to spend 45-minutes sharping one of my ProCook chef knives on my whetstone. Much frustraion arose after I was failing to get it sharp enough after having watched a load of youtube videos on how to sharpen a knife. It was much better than before but compared to the japanese sharpened knifes where you can slice a tomatoe horizontal, without even supporting the tomatoe, I'm not impresed with my efforts.

PH strikes again as I'm now eyeing up this £210 Miyabi Japanese knife:

https://uk.zwilling-shop.com/Kitchen-World/Special...

My ProCook 6-knife set was £150 odd. I guess that's where I made the mistake many years ago thinking they'd be decent.

[cbmotorsport]

Prohibiting said:

After reading this thread it gave me the motiviation to spend 45-minutes sharping one of my ProCook chef knives on my whetstone. Much frustraion arose after I was failing to get it sharp enough after having watched a load of youtube videos on how to sharpen a knife. It was much better than before but compared to the japanese sharpened knifes where you can slice a tomatoe horizontal, without even supporting the tomatoe, I'm not impresed with my efforts.

PH strikes again as I'm now eyeing up this £210 Miyabi Japanese knife:

https://uk.zwilling-shop.com/Kitchen-World/Special...

My ProCook 6-knife set was £150 odd. I guess that's where I made the mistake many years ago thinking they'd be decent.

It's your sharpening technique! Not the knife. Whetstones are hard to master. You can sharpen anything to that tomato slicing stage if you're good enough with a whetstone, and have the right grades of stone.

The only thing that a better knife will offer you is better steel, probably better hardness and the ability to keep that edge for longer, but your Japanese knife will still go blunt after a while and be hard to sharpen. In fact even harder to sharpen as the angles involved will be acuter.


here you go $1 knife, and someone good at sharpening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFFEBnY0Bo

Edited by cbmotorsport on Monday 9th December 11:27

[21TonyK]

The price of a knife should not dictate how sharp it can be made but it will affect how long it remains sharp.

The cheaper procook knives are RWC 55 so relatively soft steel, therefore very easy to sharpen but also quick to blunt.

The more expensive damascus steel knives are RWC 60 so harder and more difficult to sharpen but should retain their edge longer.

What really throws it all in the air is the fact that Japanese knives are sharpend at a more acute angle than european knives so easier to blunt.

I have taken the cheapest of the cheap generic catering knife (RWC 52) and reground it from 45 to 22 degrees and finished on a 5000 grade whetstone. Its like a razor but after an hours use just chopping veg it needs attention.

[Steven_RW]

What happens to a nice knife when it goes into the dishwasher?

[cbmotorsport]

Steven_RW said:

What happens to a nice knife when it goes into the dishwasher?

They get knocked around with whatever they're chucked in with, and the chemicals are pretty harsh on all but the most commercial handles, and it's just unnecessary and lazy to dishwash them. A sponge and some hot soapy water is all that's required.

[21TonyK]

Rattle around and loose their edge. And, if a riveted handle normally the rivets expand and contract at a different rate to the handle material so over time it cracks and ends up breaking.

[Prohibiting]

cbmotorsport said:

Prohibiting said:

After reading this thread it gave me the motiviation to spend 45-minutes sharping one of my ProCook chef knives on my whetstone. Much frustraion arose after I was failing to get it sharp enough after having watched a load of youtube videos on how to sharpen a knife. It was much better than before but compared to the japanese sharpened knifes where you can slice a tomatoe horizontal, without even supporting the tomatoe, I'm not impresed with my efforts.

PH strikes again as I'm now eyeing up this £210 Miyabi Japanese knife:

https://uk.zwilling-shop.com/Kitchen-World/Special...

My ProCook 6-knife set was £150 odd. I guess that's where I made the mistake many years ago thinking they'd be decent.

It's your sharpening technique! Not the knife. Whetstones are hard to master. You can sharpen anything to that tomato slicing stage if you're good enough with a whetstone, and have the right grades of stone.

The only thing that a better knife will offer you is better steel, probably better hardness and the ability to keep that edge for longer, but your Japanese knife will still go blunt after a while and be hard to sharpen. In fact even harder to sharpen as the angles involved will be acuter.


here you go $1 knife, and someone good at sharpening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFFEBnY0Bo

Edited by cbmotorsport on Monday 9th December 11:27

Thanks. Will practise on my ProCook knifes before splurging then. I've got a 1000 and 6000 grit whetstone.

[dickymint]

Prohibiting said:

cbmotorsport said:

Prohibiting said:

After reading this thread it gave me the motiviation to spend 45-minutes sharping one of my ProCook chef knives on my whetstone. Much frustraion arose after I was failing to get it sharp enough after having watched a load of youtube videos on how to sharpen a knife. It was much better than before but compared to the japanese sharpened knifes where you can slice a tomatoe horizontal, without even supporting the tomatoe, I'm not impresed with my efforts.

PH strikes again as I'm now eyeing up this £210 Miyabi Japanese knife:

https://uk.zwilling-shop.com/Kitchen-World/Special...

My ProCook 6-knife set was £150 odd. I guess that's where I made the mistake many years ago thinking they'd be decent.

It's your sharpening technique! Not the knife. Whetstones are hard to master. You can sharpen anything to that tomato slicing stage if you're good enough with a whetstone, and have the right grades of stone.

The only thing that a better knife will offer you is better steel, probably better hardness and the ability to keep that edge for longer, but your Japanese knife will still go blunt after a while and be hard to sharpen. In fact even harder to sharpen as the angles involved will be acuter.


here you go $1 knife, and someone good at sharpening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFFEBnY0Bo

Edited by cbmotorsport on Monday 9th December 11:27

Thanks. Will practise on my ProCook knifes before splurging then. I've got a 1000 and 6000 grit whetstone.

Here’s what I use......

https://youtu.be/q797zkZNePo

[cbmotorsport]

dickymint said:

Prohibiting said:

cbmotorsport said:

Prohibiting said:

After reading this thread it gave me the motiviation to spend 45-minutes sharping one of my ProCook chef knives on my whetstone. Much frustraion arose after I was failing to get it sharp enough after having watched a load of youtube videos on how to sharpen a knife. It was much better than before but compared to the japanese sharpened knifes where you can slice a tomatoe horizontal, without even supporting the tomatoe, I'm not impresed with my efforts.

PH strikes again as I'm now eyeing up this £210 Miyabi Japanese knife:

https://uk.zwilling-shop.com/Kitchen-World/Special...

My ProCook 6-knife set was £150 odd. I guess that's where I made the mistake many years ago thinking they'd be decent.

It's your sharpening technique! Not the knife. Whetstones are hard to master. You can sharpen anything to that tomato slicing stage if you're good enough with a whetstone, and have the right grades of stone.

The only thing that a better knife will offer you is better steel, probably better hardness and the ability to keep that edge for longer, but your Japanese knife will still go blunt after a while and be hard to sharpen. In fact even harder to sharpen as the angles involved will be acuter.


here you go $1 knife, and someone good at sharpening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFFEBnY0Bo

Edited by cbmotorsport on Monday 9th December 11:27

Thanks. Will practise on my ProCook knifes before splurging then. I've got a 1000 and 6000 grit whetstone.

Here’s what I use......

https://youtu.be/q797zkZNePo

At £500 a pop, you're more Dickyminted than Dickymint. ;-)

[gregs656]

21TonyK said:

The price of a knife should not dictate how sharp it can be made but it will affect how long it remains sharp.

The cheaper procook knives are RWC 55 so relatively soft steel, therefore very easy to sharpen but also quick to blunt.

The more expensive damascus steel knives are RWC 60 so harder and more difficult to sharpen but should retain their edge longer.

What really throws it all in the air is the fact that Japanese knives are sharpend at a more acute angle than european knives so easier to blunt.

I have taken the cheapest of the cheap generic catering knife (RWC 52) and reground it from 45 to 22 degrees and finished on a 5000 grade whetstone. Its like a razor but after an hours use just chopping veg it needs attention.

None of that is quite right.

Abrasive resistance is not the same as hardness, nor how long an edge is held for, it is also not correct that finer edge geometry means faster blunting - in fact the opposite is true in many cases.

A nice low carbide (so low abrasive resistance) simple stainless steel will be able to support fine edge geometry as the carbides won’t tear out, the hardness means it is less likely to fold and round during sharpening - making it easier, not more difficult, to sharpen at relatively high hardness.

Regarding blunting - assuming they fine edge can be supported by the steel (which it won’t be very well in many of the fashionable high carbide steels) having lower edge geometry makes the blunting effect much less pronounced as even worn you are still dealing with much finer cross sections, it will blunt slower anyway as the forces involved will be lower than with a thicker edge.

Edited by gregs656 on Wednesday 11th December 02:51

[21TonyK]

gregs656 said:

21TonyK said:

The price of a knife should not dictate how sharp it can be made but it will affect how long it remains sharp.

The cheaper procook knives are RWC 55 so relatively soft steel, therefore very easy to sharpen but also quick to blunt.

The more expensive damascus steel knives are RWC 60 so harder and more difficult to sharpen but should retain their edge longer.

What really throws it all in the air is the fact that Japanese knives are sharpend at a more acute angle than european knives so easier to blunt.

I have taken the cheapest of the cheap generic catering knife (RWC 52) and reground it from 45 to 22 degrees and finished on a 5000 grade whetstone. Its like a razor but after an hours use just chopping veg it needs attention.

None of that is quite right.

Abrasive resistance is not the same as hardness, nor how long an edge is held for, it is also not correct that finer edge geometry means faster blunting - in fact the opposite is true in many cases.

A nice low carbide (so low abrasive resistance) simple stainless steel will be able to support fine edge geometry as the carbides won’t tear out, the hardness means it is less likely to fold and round during sharpening - making it easier, not more difficult, to sharpen at relatively high hardness.

Regarding blunting - assuming they fine edge can be supported by the steel (which it won’t be very well in many of the fashionable high carbide steels) having lower edge geometry makes the blunting effect much less pronounced as even worn you are still dealing with much finer cross sections, it will blunt slower anyway as the forces involved will be lower than with a thicker edge.

Edited by gregs656 on Wednesday 11th December 02:51

You need to put that in simple terms

The carbide content dictates the hardness of the steel but higher means more difficult to sharpen and quicker to blunt?

A stainless blade would hold an acute angle shaprness better?

As an example a cheapo hygiplas knife at 22 degrees will show physical damage after hard use (boning legs of pork) whereas a higher RWC knife sharpened in the same way doing the same job still has an edge.

[gregs656]

21TonyK said:

You need to put that in simple terms

The carbide content dictates the hardness of the steel but higher means more difficult to sharpen and quicker to blunt?

A stainless blade would hold an acute angle shaprness better?

As an example a cheapo hygiplas knife at 22 degrees will show physical damage after hard use (boning legs of pork) whereas a higher RWC knife sharpened in the same way doing the same job still has an edge.

It’s the crystalline structure of the steel which gives it hardness. Different carbides give different properties. With more complex, higher carbide steels it is not just the amount of carbides but the size of them as well.

In my experience in the normal range of knife hardness something in the late 50s is easier to sharpen effectively than something in the low 50s (because it is much less likely to fold or round) and easier than something in the 60s (which is just plain dull).

However you can have a high carbide steel in the late 50s which will be a bear to sharpen. The carbides are wear resistant and tear out of the edge. Nightmare.

A simple stainless will hold an finer edge better than a complex stainless (something like 12c27 vs D2). A carbon steel which can get hard enough for knives - like O1, or the ever popular white and blue paper steels, will be able to hold an ever finer edge.

It could be for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with hardness - the grind, stock thickness, quality of the treatment etc. Some of the cheap knives are case hardened for example.

How are you testing the hardness, I never got round to buying a set of Rockwell testers.

edit: Damascus steel is a folding of two carbon steels, and should be relatively easy to sharpen and just looks nice, Damasteel is a blend of 2 powdered metal steels - powdered metal steels manage the size and distribution of carbides better than non-powdered steels. These are going to be more difficult to sharpen, even at 'normal' rockwell numbers.

Edited by gregs656 on Wednesday 11th December 14:44

[21TonyK]

Think I get it

Obviously a lot more to it than just the RWC. As for testing? I only go on the manufacturers quoted figures based on the knives I use.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Hosenbugler]

I mainly use a supermarket bought cook's knife, had it around 20 years. Give it a couple of strokes with a steel each time I use it, Does the job ,cannot recall how much it was but without doubt, cost under a tenner.
If I were younger , and wanted something to last a lifetime, kitchen wise, then it would likely be Mauviel pans , or something similar, if they exist.