Gourmet Ice Cream
Discussion
PugwasHDJ80 said:
Industrial ice cream is interesting
Dairy ice cream is a protected name- it can only have dairy-derived fats in it!
The key metric for most commercial ice creams is "over run"- this is the percentage of air incorporated into the ice cream as it is frozen- cheaper ice creams can have as much as 220% increase of volume by weight. Cheap ice cream is either packed with water or stabilised with the likes of guar gum (hence whey cheap ice cream holds it shape when warm- its more of a mousse).
a few keys to really good ice cream-
the balance of fat to sugar to protein is utterly vital for mouthfeel- there is a LOT of science- up to 20% fat is possible, but 16-18% is common in ultra premium ice cream. Dried skimmed milk powder is often vital to get the exact ratios here- i use it at home when making really high fat ice creams. Butter is also often used as a fat molecule- too much though and the icea cream starts to have a mouth feel like butter.
You then need to homogenise the mixture which makes the fat molecules smaller and increases the amount of sugar they can handle- this also helps flavours come out (fats are very good at dissolving flavours, which is why really high fat ice creams don't have the immedicay of low fat ice cream). Most commercial mistures are pasteurised at this point.
After homogonising most commercial ice cream mixes are left to develop for at least 24 hours, if not longer. Throughout this process the mixes are tested for biological problems- ie testing for listeria, salmonelle, ecoli etc
Once the mixes have developed they are passed through the freeezer for packaging- at this point you can add inclusions (ripples, nuts, choc pieces etc etc). THe choice of freezing methadology is key here- its a big win for the big commercial factories- they can afford to use dynamic freezing where you pass the mix through a frozen nozzle and incorporate air at the same time- the mix freezes very quickly and this reduces ice crystals significantly (its why they can make cheap low fat ice creams- its a lot of water, but because it freezes so quickly, you don't notice)
The really big guys will use ammonia refrigerants for ice cream- they are good because they tend to take more load at a lower temperature- you can freeze things quicker without to much trouble.
If you really want to see how good your ice cream is then weigh it- you have a 4l tub- a really really high quality ice cream might weigh as much as 750g/litre of liquid. A really cheap ice cream might weigh as low as 300g/litre.
Getting the mix right is much more of an art form then just choosing luxury ingredients- and production methods also play a big part. Personally i don't like Gelato as it uses a relatively low fat % - well belo 7% most of the time which reduces the mouth feel for me- it melts funny and tastes a bit watery.
The best ice cream i know is made by a client of mine that usually makes high volume low price ice cream, but occasionally turns all the machines to short run ultra premium ice cream, but made using commercial kit- it blows everything else out of the water......the closes i've come to is the likes of new forest, alder tree, Di Meo's
I also beleive that ice cream is best shortly after its been made- too long and i'm convinced it loses flavour and texture- but the industry promises that's not true.....
That was really insightful - thanks!Dairy ice cream is a protected name- it can only have dairy-derived fats in it!
The key metric for most commercial ice creams is "over run"- this is the percentage of air incorporated into the ice cream as it is frozen- cheaper ice creams can have as much as 220% increase of volume by weight. Cheap ice cream is either packed with water or stabilised with the likes of guar gum (hence whey cheap ice cream holds it shape when warm- its more of a mousse).
a few keys to really good ice cream-
the balance of fat to sugar to protein is utterly vital for mouthfeel- there is a LOT of science- up to 20% fat is possible, but 16-18% is common in ultra premium ice cream. Dried skimmed milk powder is often vital to get the exact ratios here- i use it at home when making really high fat ice creams. Butter is also often used as a fat molecule- too much though and the icea cream starts to have a mouth feel like butter.
You then need to homogenise the mixture which makes the fat molecules smaller and increases the amount of sugar they can handle- this also helps flavours come out (fats are very good at dissolving flavours, which is why really high fat ice creams don't have the immedicay of low fat ice cream). Most commercial mistures are pasteurised at this point.
After homogonising most commercial ice cream mixes are left to develop for at least 24 hours, if not longer. Throughout this process the mixes are tested for biological problems- ie testing for listeria, salmonelle, ecoli etc
Once the mixes have developed they are passed through the freeezer for packaging- at this point you can add inclusions (ripples, nuts, choc pieces etc etc). THe choice of freezing methadology is key here- its a big win for the big commercial factories- they can afford to use dynamic freezing where you pass the mix through a frozen nozzle and incorporate air at the same time- the mix freezes very quickly and this reduces ice crystals significantly (its why they can make cheap low fat ice creams- its a lot of water, but because it freezes so quickly, you don't notice)
The really big guys will use ammonia refrigerants for ice cream- they are good because they tend to take more load at a lower temperature- you can freeze things quicker without to much trouble.
If you really want to see how good your ice cream is then weigh it- you have a 4l tub- a really really high quality ice cream might weigh as much as 750g/litre of liquid. A really cheap ice cream might weigh as low as 300g/litre.
Getting the mix right is much more of an art form then just choosing luxury ingredients- and production methods also play a big part. Personally i don't like Gelato as it uses a relatively low fat % - well belo 7% most of the time which reduces the mouth feel for me- it melts funny and tastes a bit watery.
The best ice cream i know is made by a client of mine that usually makes high volume low price ice cream, but occasionally turns all the machines to short run ultra premium ice cream, but made using commercial kit- it blows everything else out of the water......the closes i've come to is the likes of new forest, alder tree, Di Meo's
I also beleive that ice cream is best shortly after its been made- too long and i'm convinced it loses flavour and texture- but the industry promises that's not true.....
PugwasHDJ80 said:
Unfortunately its also a really quick way to kill people- ice cream mix seems to have magical powers for growing bacterial infections! You'd have people dying from E.Coli all over the place....
I wonder if that's why McDonalds milkshake machines are always out of order whenever I'm desperate for one, as they have to cycle to 'cleaning mode' every few hours I've heard?Edited by LeadFarmer on Wednesday 26th May 17:48
LeadFarmer said:
PugwasHDJ80 said:
Unfortunately its also a really quick way to kill people- ice cream mix seems to have magical powers for growing bacterial infections! You'd have people dying from E.Coli all over the place....
I wonder ion that's why McDonalds milkshake machines are always out of order whenever I'm desperate for one, as they have to cycle to 'cleaning mode' every few hours I've heard?LeadFarmer said:
PugwasHDJ80 said:
Unfortunately its also a really quick way to kill people- ice cream mix seems to have magical powers for growing bacterial infections! You'd have people dying from E.Coli all over the place....
I wonder ion that's why McDonalds milkshake machines are always out of order whenever I'm desperate for one, as they have to cycle to 'cleaning mode' every few hours I've heard?in short
Taylor (who makes the ice cream machines) and McDonalds have a very very close relationship- if you have a taylor machine, you HAVE to have it fixed by Taylor.....and if you choose not to, the machine only gives error codes with no list of what those machines actually mean.
The machines made by Taylor for other purchasers are easy to fix!
If you really want to see the background to this have a look at : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4
and
https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-...
Suffice to say its a very strange story.....
DodgyGeezer said:
RobbieTheTruth said:
Gourmet stuff like Haagen Dasz Vanilla is around 40% cream.
don't know as I'd call HD gourmet (though I do like it)The New Forrest one in comparison is whole milk, cream (17%), sugar, skimmed milk powder, dextrose, Emulsifier: Mono- and Di-Glycerides of Fatty Acids, Stabilisers: Sodium Alginate, Guar Gum, Natural Flavouring.
I'm not making a case for Haagen Dasz to be amazing, but it's a pretty premium product?
RobbieTheTruth said:
In terms of ingredients, it surely would be considered gourmet? Their vanilla only contains cream (39%), sugar, milk, egg yolk and vanilla and is 39% cream.
The New Forrest one in comparison is whole milk, cream (17%), sugar, skimmed milk powder, dextrose, Emulsifier: Mono- and Di-Glycerides of Fatty Acids, Stabilisers: Sodium Alginate, Guar Gum, Natural Flavouring.
I'm not making a case for Haagen Dasz to be amazing, but it's a pretty premium product?
In the mouth - Haagen washes and coats it, and you cant then get away from the cream.The New Forrest one in comparison is whole milk, cream (17%), sugar, skimmed milk powder, dextrose, Emulsifier: Mono- and Di-Glycerides of Fatty Acids, Stabilisers: Sodium Alginate, Guar Gum, Natural Flavouring.
I'm not making a case for Haagen Dasz to be amazing, but it's a pretty premium product?
New Forest leaves you with a clean palette after every mouthful. And it is a better texture. No rubbery density - clean and airy.
Armchair_Expert said:
RobbieTheTruth said:
In terms of ingredients, it surely would be considered gourmet? Their vanilla only contains cream (39%), sugar, milk, egg yolk and vanilla and is 39% cream.
The New Forrest one in comparison is whole milk, cream (17%), sugar, skimmed milk powder, dextrose, Emulsifier: Mono- and Di-Glycerides of Fatty Acids, Stabilisers: Sodium Alginate, Guar Gum, Natural Flavouring.
I'm not making a case for Haagen Dasz to be amazing, but it's a pretty premium product?
In the mouth - Haagen washes and coats it, and you cant then get away from the cream.The New Forrest one in comparison is whole milk, cream (17%), sugar, skimmed milk powder, dextrose, Emulsifier: Mono- and Di-Glycerides of Fatty Acids, Stabilisers: Sodium Alginate, Guar Gum, Natural Flavouring.
I'm not making a case for Haagen Dasz to be amazing, but it's a pretty premium product?
New Forest leaves you with a clean palette after every mouthful. And it is a better texture. No rubbery density - clean and airy.
I love Haagen Vanilla though. Love that thick, dense, hard, creamy, almost chewyness to it. Same with Ben & Jerrys vanilla, which is 34% cream.
It's quite probable that the BEST ones are the ones most folks haven't heard of. As they will be made small scale on local farms for their shops and cafes.
Vanilla ice cream and traditional ice cream are TWO different things. Traditional dairy ice cream is just the flavour of the milk and possibly eggs. People do tend to call this vanilla though.
Vanilla ice cream and traditional ice cream are TWO different things. Traditional dairy ice cream is just the flavour of the milk and possibly eggs. People do tend to call this vanilla though.
RobbieTheTruth said:
Armchair_Expert said:
RobbieTheTruth said:
In terms of ingredients, it surely would be considered gourmet? Their vanilla only contains cream (39%), sugar, milk, egg yolk and vanilla and is 39% cream.
The New Forrest one in comparison is whole milk, cream (17%), sugar, skimmed milk powder, dextrose, Emulsifier: Mono- and Di-Glycerides of Fatty Acids, Stabilisers: Sodium Alginate, Guar Gum, Natural Flavouring.
I'm not making a case for Haagen Dasz to be amazing, but it's a pretty premium product?
In the mouth - Haagen washes and coats it, and you cant then get away from the cream.The New Forrest one in comparison is whole milk, cream (17%), sugar, skimmed milk powder, dextrose, Emulsifier: Mono- and Di-Glycerides of Fatty Acids, Stabilisers: Sodium Alginate, Guar Gum, Natural Flavouring.
I'm not making a case for Haagen Dasz to be amazing, but it's a pretty premium product?
New Forest leaves you with a clean palette after every mouthful. And it is a better texture. No rubbery density - clean and airy.
I love Haagen Vanilla though. Love that thick, dense, hard, creamy, almost chewyness to it. Same with Ben & Jerrys vanilla, which is 34% cream.
In the UK our only legal definition is around the word "dairy". its also worth noting, if you're diabetic, that most "diabetic" ice creams are also illegally labelled as such- in fact they are absolutely not allowed to call them "diabetic".
Anyway back to premium, in the states the definition of various ice creams are as follows.
All you need to do is look at the % fat per gram of ice cream to give you a view on whether it is premium. There is also an "ultra premium" evolving in the USa market which tends to be 18% fat, dairy, but with egg yolk, high milk solids and all natural ingredients.
As mentioned before, technique is at least as important as ingredients
PugwasHDJ80 said:
In the USA there are very clear definitions of ice cream which we don't have in the UK. They have definitions that must meet fat and milk solids criteria, as well as a definition around "french ice cream"- basically ice cream that has egg yolk in it. I can't remember seeing a commercial ice cream in the UK that has egg yok (ie a custard based ice cream) which is a shame as they have a MUCH better mouth feel than Xanthum gum.
There are quite a few places in London that do US style egg yolk ice cream generally called frozen custard or concretes depending on what its made ofmoorx said:
Those look worth a try. Anyone got any success stories with ice cream machines? Worth buying, or another machine to get lost to the back of the cupboard?
LeadFarmer said:
moorx said:
Those look worth a try. Anyone got any success stories with ice cream machines? Worth buying, or another machine to get lost to the back of the cupboard?
Audis5b9 said:
Have you tried the banoffee yet?
Its my favorite of theirs... need to go and restock!
The banofee is in our freezer - its only available in "continental" - which is "just" semi skimmed milk.Its my favorite of theirs... need to go and restock!
But its sublime.
The other 3 flavors are full dairy - full fat milk and cream.
Yeah we are sitting pretty here. Epic ice cream, on tap. Working out the next order.
PugwasHDJ80 said:
In the USA there are very clear definitions of ice cream which we don't have in the UK. They have definitions that must meet fat and milk solids criteria, as well as a definition around "french ice cream"- basically ice cream that has egg yolk in it. I can't remember seeing a commercial ice cream in the UK that has egg yok (ie a custard based ice cream) which is a shame as they have a MUCH better mouth feel than Xanthum gum.
In the UK our only legal definition is around the word "dairy". its also worth noting, if you're diabetic, that most "diabetic" ice creams are also illegally labelled as such- in fact they are absolutely not allowed to call them "diabetic".
Anyway back to premium, in the states the definition of various ice creams are as follows.
All you need to do is look at the % fat per gram of ice cream to give you a view on whether it is premium. There is also an "ultra premium" evolving in the USa market which tends to be 18% fat, dairy, but with egg yolk, high milk solids and all natural ingredients.
As mentioned before, technique is at least as important as ingredients
Haagen Dasz vanilla contains cream (39%), sugar, milk, egg yolk and vanilla.In the UK our only legal definition is around the word "dairy". its also worth noting, if you're diabetic, that most "diabetic" ice creams are also illegally labelled as such- in fact they are absolutely not allowed to call them "diabetic".
Anyway back to premium, in the states the definition of various ice creams are as follows.
All you need to do is look at the % fat per gram of ice cream to give you a view on whether it is premium. There is also an "ultra premium" evolving in the USa market which tends to be 18% fat, dairy, but with egg yolk, high milk solids and all natural ingredients.
As mentioned before, technique is at least as important as ingredients
It's 39% cream and as a whole is 17% fat.
It's clearly premium, if not super premium?.
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