Driving feeling? Detached from the world...
Discussion
I took an S5 out for a test drive today, lovely motor, incredibly capable and by far the fastest thing I've driven with 350hp up front. By any measure, a wonderful piece of engineering. Loads of technology.
BUT
It didn't make me "feel" as expected. The "driving experience" was somewhat detached. There was little steering feel, and while the car was undeniably quick, it wasn't "scary quick", it was just "everything is very under control" quick. One moment you are there, next moment you are here, sort of quick. Maybe I was expecting too much from riding motorbikes. They are visceral, you feel every bump, every bit of wind, every movement of the bars and of the bike. You learn to trust it, to believe in it.
So, are all modern performance cars like this, or is there something out there which is both semi-practical and also gives the driver some "feels? A little kit car or Caterham would no doubt be visceral, but isn't practical for leaving outside and taking to work? Have modern cars gone too far at removing the driver from the experience of driving? You might expect that with a washing machine Kia, but for a V6 Audi to do the same? I was surprised.
BUT
It didn't make me "feel" as expected. The "driving experience" was somewhat detached. There was little steering feel, and while the car was undeniably quick, it wasn't "scary quick", it was just "everything is very under control" quick. One moment you are there, next moment you are here, sort of quick. Maybe I was expecting too much from riding motorbikes. They are visceral, you feel every bump, every bit of wind, every movement of the bars and of the bike. You learn to trust it, to believe in it.
So, are all modern performance cars like this, or is there something out there which is both semi-practical and also gives the driver some "feels? A little kit car or Caterham would no doubt be visceral, but isn't practical for leaving outside and taking to work? Have modern cars gone too far at removing the driver from the experience of driving? You might expect that with a washing machine Kia, but for a V6 Audi to do the same? I was surprised.
Companies & technology have become very good (Particularly Audi) at building cars that can give both boggling performance and hyper-luxury, with synthetic sound, active damping / rollbars, variable EPAS and switchable modes.
If you shop for that side of the market, you will end up with the (Remaining) compromises of both, in your case the magical NVH etc.
Look towards more focused performance - Caterhams and the like are a fab example, but in your case you may as well get back on the bike. For a more conventional car, I'd suggest slightly older hot hatches or dedicated performance coupes.
If you shop for that side of the market, you will end up with the (Remaining) compromises of both, in your case the magical NVH etc.
Look towards more focused performance - Caterhams and the like are a fab example, but in your case you may as well get back on the bike. For a more conventional car, I'd suggest slightly older hot hatches or dedicated performance coupes.
911Spanker said:
In general, Audis are truly terrible to drive so it's no surprise.
Genuine question, as I've no experience of them at all, and I know they're a different beast, but would this, and the OP's view of the test drive, apply to an RS6? Or are they more involving, and a better driving experience?If you’ve got the cash, buy some sort of white goods for a daily and something like a Mk7 Fiesta ST as a fun car. I loved mine, most fun car I’ve owned and the best handling. I’m currently running an Octavia VRS and it’s similar to how you’re describing the S5, fast, effective, deathly dull. I probably won’t buy another fast VAG.
Condi said:
So, are all modern performance cars like this, or is there something out there which is both semi-practical and also gives the driver some "feels? A little kit car or Caterham would no doubt be visceral, but isn't practical for leaving outside and taking to work? Have modern cars gone too far at removing the driver from the experience of driving? You might expect that with a washing machine Kia, but for a V6 Audi to do the same? I was surprised.
Interesting you mention Kia, the current head chassis engineer at Kia used to work for BMW heading up the M-Division, as a result the current Kia Stinger & the Hyunda N versions have been praised for their handling especially in the "entertaining" aspect. Given the S5 is a coupe, how new a car are you after, something like a V8 Mustang? or a older Holden Monaro might do the coupe with sledgehammer performance combined with a degree of comfort and a lot more involvement/feedback/feel !!
I daily an S4. It's a fantastic mix of everything you'd want - literally, the perfect example of "jack of all trades, master of none".
It's comfortable to drive long distances, but isn't as nice to drive as a proper GT car. It's reasonably quick, but gets left behind by lighter/more powerful cars in its bracket. It handles well, but doesn't invoke any driving pleasure.
As an everyday car S-lines or whatever they're called now, are respectable. I feel that's what they're best at - nothing groundbreaking, but doesn't fall over in one category or another. I've always thought that M3s were more performance than comfort, C63s were more comfort than performance, and S4s were sort of in the middle. Having had an example of all three on the drive, I stand by that.
I usually drive my Impreza if I want some local fun, it's absolutely crap at long distances but great fun on my local B-roads. My V8 F-Type is the opposite, it's useless around the corners but a lovely place to relax and soak up the miles, and go fast in a straight line to boot.
To summarise, I feel like the S4/S5/probably other S-cars are designed to do everything to an acceptable level, but not excel in anything. Whether that's your gig or not is down to personal preference. Personally, I use mine as a daily so it works very well for that reason. If I wanted it to be a B-road blaster I'd be disappointed.
It's comfortable to drive long distances, but isn't as nice to drive as a proper GT car. It's reasonably quick, but gets left behind by lighter/more powerful cars in its bracket. It handles well, but doesn't invoke any driving pleasure.
As an everyday car S-lines or whatever they're called now, are respectable. I feel that's what they're best at - nothing groundbreaking, but doesn't fall over in one category or another. I've always thought that M3s were more performance than comfort, C63s were more comfort than performance, and S4s were sort of in the middle. Having had an example of all three on the drive, I stand by that.
I usually drive my Impreza if I want some local fun, it's absolutely crap at long distances but great fun on my local B-roads. My V8 F-Type is the opposite, it's useless around the corners but a lovely place to relax and soak up the miles, and go fast in a straight line to boot.
To summarise, I feel like the S4/S5/probably other S-cars are designed to do everything to an acceptable level, but not excel in anything. Whether that's your gig or not is down to personal preference. Personally, I use mine as a daily so it works very well for that reason. If I wanted it to be a B-road blaster I'd be disappointed.
I've driven a few fast Audi's and they're all competent at going quickly in a straight line, can do ridiculous cornering speeds if you're brave / stupid enough, and have good electronics to make you feel like a hero save you, but the steering feel is numb and they're boring to drive. It's just what Audi do.
There are plenty of other brands that make driver's cars.
There are plenty of other brands that make driver's cars.
For me, modern S, RS, 63, M cars make good performance daily rides - reasonably practical, good tech, amazing stopping power, and very fast, but they’re not really wake up at 6am on Sunday morning blast type of fun (like a bike). I honestly don’t think that type of experience has much to do with outright BHP, some of my most entertaining bikes were by no means the fasted or most powerful.
I’m in the process of moving from a 500bhp auto to a 300bhp manual to try and reignite the fun factor. Ideally, I would have kept the 500hp auto as the family wagon but my wife prefers her little SUV thing.
Controversial looks aside, the new M3 is meant to be an amazing car to drive, but you just can’t explore much of that performance on the road, no doubt I would have more fun scratching backroads on a little 2 stroke bike or GR Yaris. Obviously it’s totally subjective…
I’m in the process of moving from a 500bhp auto to a 300bhp manual to try and reignite the fun factor. Ideally, I would have kept the 500hp auto as the family wagon but my wife prefers her little SUV thing.
Controversial looks aside, the new M3 is meant to be an amazing car to drive, but you just can’t explore much of that performance on the road, no doubt I would have more fun scratching backroads on a little 2 stroke bike or GR Yaris. Obviously it’s totally subjective…
Edited by JAMSXR on Wednesday 8th February 04:57
Vast majority of modern cars, if not all, are detached from the experience. I wonder if that is actually what most people want from a car, even the sporting ones.
Quite aside from the poor value proposition that modern cars offer, I have little interest in anything post 2010(ish) for this reason.
Having said all that, I think there would be some modifications that could be done to an S5 to enhance it if you inclined to do things like that.
Quite aside from the poor value proposition that modern cars offer, I have little interest in anything post 2010(ish) for this reason.
Having said all that, I think there would be some modifications that could be done to an S5 to enhance it if you inclined to do things like that.
Second Best said:
I daily an S4. It's a fantastic mix of everything you'd want - literally, the perfect example of "jack of all trades, master of none"..
I had an A4 previously and would agree with that, but I guess I was left wondering what the S4/5 delivered over the A4/5 and came away thinking that it wasn't a lot. You can get the 270hp 3 litre diesel A4/5 which has 99% of what the S4 does and twice the fuel economy. If I was rich I'd have 3 cars for different situations, but the budget is pushed at 2, let alone 3!
911Spanker said:
In general, Audis are truly terrible to drive so it's no surprise.
Get something lighter and more focused. Plenty of cars out there which would do the job better than an S5.
I must have been “ lucky “ with the SQ2, S3 ,RS3 , RS4 and R8 that I have owned or own in that none were even slightly terrible to drive. Get something lighter and more focused. Plenty of cars out there which would do the job better than an S5.
Which ones have you driven ?
I have a 2017 Turbo S5 - what one did you test drive? Earlier ones are V8 and V6 supercharged, later ones are diesel.
Personally I have never had a car that ticks so many boxes for me, comfortable (ok, except on bumpy road surfaces perhaps), mad levels of grip, RWD biased Quattro, 0-60 in 4.7 seconds, 8 speed ZF8 gearbox, best in the business, great sound....
What mode did you have it in? In Dynamic the steering is labelled as 'Direct' - in comfort, it is much lighter and dead feeling.
The traction control light has flashed once for me in my ownership - coming off a roundabout the road rose and dipped so the car got a bit lighter. That includes fast accelerations in the wet in 1st gear.
I haven't had an equivalent power RWD car (270bhp diesel 5 series the most powerful one I've had) but the ability to put the power down more often is a massive benefit to me. I don't think I'd have the same fun in an M440i for example. At least not as safely.
Personally I have never had a car that ticks so many boxes for me, comfortable (ok, except on bumpy road surfaces perhaps), mad levels of grip, RWD biased Quattro, 0-60 in 4.7 seconds, 8 speed ZF8 gearbox, best in the business, great sound....
What mode did you have it in? In Dynamic the steering is labelled as 'Direct' - in comfort, it is much lighter and dead feeling.
The traction control light has flashed once for me in my ownership - coming off a roundabout the road rose and dipped so the car got a bit lighter. That includes fast accelerations in the wet in 1st gear.
I haven't had an equivalent power RWD car (270bhp diesel 5 series the most powerful one I've had) but the ability to put the power down more often is a massive benefit to me. I don't think I'd have the same fun in an M440i for example. At least not as safely.
Around 2014 I bought a 2007 E91 330i and found exactly the same - it's fast, it's impressive, but it's not involving. At least until you're going round corners far faster than your ability to stop within the distance you can see is safe. Increased steering weight isn't all you need to feel what the car's doing.
I sold it and got a Mk2 Golf with a ported and cammed 2.0 engine, lightened flywheel etc. What a hoot to chuck around the back roads. The enjoyment of the drive for me is what you put into it and what you get back, not how fast you go.
I've now got a 2004 Monaro and it's a bit dulled but nothing like the E91 was. It's on poly bushes so isn't too sloppy, but does need a quicker rack and smaller steering wheel to get it where I want it.
I drive a lot of new cars in my job and sadly even the ones touted as the most fun aren't anything like as agile, or adjustable on the throttle, or giving of great feedback and tactility, as the greats from the late 80s and early 90s that show you just how good cars could be. So for me the answer is roll back 20 years at least and get something renowned to be fun - it'll be a revelation.
I sold it and got a Mk2 Golf with a ported and cammed 2.0 engine, lightened flywheel etc. What a hoot to chuck around the back roads. The enjoyment of the drive for me is what you put into it and what you get back, not how fast you go.
I've now got a 2004 Monaro and it's a bit dulled but nothing like the E91 was. It's on poly bushes so isn't too sloppy, but does need a quicker rack and smaller steering wheel to get it where I want it.
I drive a lot of new cars in my job and sadly even the ones touted as the most fun aren't anything like as agile, or adjustable on the throttle, or giving of great feedback and tactility, as the greats from the late 80s and early 90s that show you just how good cars could be. So for me the answer is roll back 20 years at least and get something renowned to be fun - it'll be a revelation.
It'll depend on what you want your car for, which sounds weird but bear with.
I had my S Class for two years, for covering distance nothing else compares to it. Silent, quick, and so comfortable but deliberately detaches you from the effort of driving. Not a car you get in for a fun drive, the pleasure came from it's ability to cover distance. I think there's probably many modern cars that have the turn of speed but lack the directness you want for driving for fun.
Also cars that are outright fast aren't always engaging, speed isn't a defining reason for a car to be fun.
It's a fine balance though as direct, quick, light cars can become tiresome for every day use. I found this with my Clio 172 many years ago, 2 hours of driving every day averaging 13mph made it a bit tiresome.
I had my S Class for two years, for covering distance nothing else compares to it. Silent, quick, and so comfortable but deliberately detaches you from the effort of driving. Not a car you get in for a fun drive, the pleasure came from it's ability to cover distance. I think there's probably many modern cars that have the turn of speed but lack the directness you want for driving for fun.
Also cars that are outright fast aren't always engaging, speed isn't a defining reason for a car to be fun.
It's a fine balance though as direct, quick, light cars can become tiresome for every day use. I found this with my Clio 172 many years ago, 2 hours of driving every day averaging 13mph made it a bit tiresome.
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