Learning to play the guitar?
Discussion
Looking at it through the prism of 30 years experience, barre chords are easy. Cast your mind back & they were almost certainly a challenge at the time. They're the first chords you learn that need absolute precision, no room for smudging, so people often do find them difficult to master.
Edited by President Merkin on Tuesday 7th February 08:27
I'd say playing a root 5 Bm barre at the 2nd fret is tricky since you need to use the tip of your index finger to mute the low E string. Again, in the context of a beginner coming to it fresh, that is a new thing to learn while also learning a new thing, so it's a new layer of complexity.
As ever wth these things, there is no substitute for practice, The more you do, the easier it becomes until you reach the point where it becomes automatic & you can do it without thinking.
As ever wth these things, there is no substitute for practice, The more you do, the easier it becomes until you reach the point where it becomes automatic & you can do it without thinking.
RATATTAK said:
One of the things I realised fairly early on (60 years ago) is that you don't need to strum all of the strings all of the time.
100% that ^I've rattled on about it before (maybe on this thread) that, unless its "extended" chords like 7th / 9th / 11th etc., any chord - be it major or minor or diminished - consists of just three notes. Fret an E / G# / B anywhere and there's Emaj. Likewise, fret E / G / B and there's Em. Fret E / G/ Bb and there's a diminished chord (OK, a full diminished chord will have a double-flatted 7th note, but the quality of the chord without it remains very similar).
All that ^^ is true, however in context of the past couple of pages in which people are discussing their travails forming basic barre chords, it's ahead of the game to say the least to deploy an encyclopaedic knowledge of the fretboard & instantly translate that into chord shapes.
A recurring theme in this thread is people proffering advice from the narrow perspective of their own decades long experience, forgetting how they struggled at the outset as everyone does. It's empathy innit.
Music is hard, not impossible but hard, especially in the early days, people have to climb the steps one at a time.
A recurring theme in this thread is people proffering advice from the narrow perspective of their own decades long experience, forgetting how they struggled at the outset as everyone does. It's empathy innit.
Music is hard, not impossible but hard, especially in the early days, people have to climb the steps one at a time.
President Merkin said:
All that ^^ is true, however in context of the past couple of pages in which people are discussing their travails forming basic barre chords, it's ahead of the game to say the least to deploy an encyclopaedic knowledge of the fretboard & instantly translate that into chord shapes.
A recurring theme in this thread is people proffering advice from the narrow perspective of their own decades long experience, forgetting how they struggled at the outset as everyone does. It's empathy innit.
Music is hard, not impossible but hard, especially in the early days, people have to climb the steps one at a time.
That's a fair point, and I'll admit I have been guilty of what you describe.A recurring theme in this thread is people proffering advice from the narrow perspective of their own decades long experience, forgetting how they struggled at the outset as everyone does. It's empathy innit.
Music is hard, not impossible but hard, especially in the early days, people have to climb the steps one at a time.
I think what it is, from my perspective, is that early on I was just learning chord and scale "shapes" without learning how at all worked. After dipping my toes into basic music theory back in 2018, the fretboard has "opened up". I just wish I had done it sooner.
And - back O/T - Fm7 in position 1 with a full barre is still a challenge without a bum note (I blame my crooked left index finger)
cherryowen said:
President Merkin said:
All that ^^ is true, however in context of the past couple of pages in which people are discussing their travails forming basic barre chords, it's ahead of the game to say the least to deploy an encyclopaedic knowledge of the fretboard & instantly translate that into chord shapes.
A recurring theme in this thread is people proffering advice from the narrow perspective of their own decades long experience, forgetting how they struggled at the outset as everyone does. It's empathy innit.
Music is hard, not impossible but hard, especially in the early days, people have to climb the steps one at a time.
That's a fair point, and I'll admit I have been guilty of what you describe.A recurring theme in this thread is people proffering advice from the narrow perspective of their own decades long experience, forgetting how they struggled at the outset as everyone does. It's empathy innit.
Music is hard, not impossible but hard, especially in the early days, people have to climb the steps one at a time.
I think what it is, from my perspective, is that early on I was just learning chord and scale "shapes" without learning how at all worked. After dipping my toes into basic music theory back in 2018, the fretboard has "opened up". I just wish I had done it sooner.
And - back O/T - Fm7 in position 1 with a full barre is still a challenge without a bum note (I blame my crooked left index finger)
The most important thing is finger strength and your ear. Go for theory if it interests you but there's no quicker way to kill interest in guitar than theory - especially for anyone wanting to play "just" popular music
I'm teaching my daughter bass & can confirm my chivvying her to learn a few scales is proving a major (or minor) turn off. She wants to play the songs she loves & doesn't care why her fingers need to go where they do. I know from experience that in the end, that's a cul-de-sac but a big part of me also recalls I was a few years in before it even occurred to me to wonder why this note sounded alright with that chord, so I've backed off to let her go at her own pace.
It's a balancing act between progression & enjoyment & I reason that if playing music captures her, then the desire to progress will see her work things out for herself. Talking to an old band mate about this & his view was some of the most original music comes from people who never bothered learning anything formal but just went by what sounded interesting to them. I'd never thought of it that way.
It's a balancing act between progression & enjoyment & I reason that if playing music captures her, then the desire to progress will see her work things out for herself. Talking to an old band mate about this & his view was some of the most original music comes from people who never bothered learning anything formal but just went by what sounded interesting to them. I'd never thought of it that way.
President Merkin said:
I'm teaching my daughter bass & can confirm my chivvying her to learn a few scales is proving a major (or minor) turn off. She wants to play the songs she loves & doesn't care why her fingers need to go where they do. I know from experience that in the end, that's a cul-de-sac but a big part of me also recalls I was a few years in before it even occurred to me to wonder why this note sounded alright with that chord, so I've backed off to let her go at her own pace.
It's a balancing act between progression & enjoyment & I reason that if playing music captures her, then the desire to progress will see her work things out for herself. Talking to an old band mate about this & his view was some of the most original music comes from people who never bothered learning anything formal but just went by what sounded interesting to them. I'd never thought of it that way.
See quote a few big names,when interviewed claim no knowledge of music theory,right oh!It's a balancing act between progression & enjoyment & I reason that if playing music captures her, then the desire to progress will see her work things out for herself. Talking to an old band mate about this & his view was some of the most original music comes from people who never bothered learning anything formal but just went by what sounded interesting to them. I'd never thought of it that way.
Want to read a book,need to know the language it's written in,want to play music,need to know some of the 'language',theory
TCX said:
See quote a few big names,when interviewed claim no knowledge of music theory,right oh!
Want to read a book,need to know the language it's written in,want to play music,need to know some of the 'language',theory
Not so sure about the theory tbh. There are plenty of interviews i've seen too where people claim no knowledge and i believe they mean they have no formal knowledge or training, but know very well which notes go with which through instinct. Want to read a book,need to know the language it's written in,want to play music,need to know some of the 'language',theory
I used to sit for hours and hours playing a child size guitar when i was a kid, six or seven years old. I just liked how the notes sounded together. The mere mention of lessons put me off completely until I bought my own guitar as a young adult at 18 (first credit card, first purchase
). I still have that guitar today, and still play it. Never had formal lessons but i've realised later in my years that some level of "why" notes sound good together does help, but i'm still crap at theory and it bores me to tears - i've learnt as much just learning to play other peoples stuff too so think that is an equally valid path - its primarily a fun thing to do.
Some people just have an ear for music.
For example, a friend of my dad, if you asked him to listen to a piece of recorded music, he would listen to it a couple of times, then he could replicate it on a keyboard, He would play the melody, the harmonies and the bass line flawlessly. If you asked him what chord he was playing, he didn't have a clue.
He would ask my dad, why he was playing certain notes, my dad, who scores for "big" bands, would explain that he was playing, say, a flattened third to make a minor chord. The theory simply didn't register, as far as he was concerned, he played what sounded good to him.
He'd never had a lesson in his life, couldn't read music and had no concept, whatsoever, of music theory, yet he could learn to play virtually anything on a keyboard. So yes, these people do exist.
There are however even more annoying people.
When I was eight, I was playing in a brass band, obviously I could read music, I'd asked my dad to teach me how to play and he obliged.
By the time I went to senior school, I was a very good player.
Once the music teacher found out, I was coerced into the school "orchestra", a living hell if there ever was one.
Anyway, there was one lad who was really good, he played the cello!
He did have a rather annoying trait, he could pick up any instrument, brass, woodwind, strings, keyboard and play it, it just wasn't an issue for him.
He did end up going to the Royal College of Music.
They are out there!
For example, a friend of my dad, if you asked him to listen to a piece of recorded music, he would listen to it a couple of times, then he could replicate it on a keyboard, He would play the melody, the harmonies and the bass line flawlessly. If you asked him what chord he was playing, he didn't have a clue.
He would ask my dad, why he was playing certain notes, my dad, who scores for "big" bands, would explain that he was playing, say, a flattened third to make a minor chord. The theory simply didn't register, as far as he was concerned, he played what sounded good to him.
He'd never had a lesson in his life, couldn't read music and had no concept, whatsoever, of music theory, yet he could learn to play virtually anything on a keyboard. So yes, these people do exist.
There are however even more annoying people.
When I was eight, I was playing in a brass band, obviously I could read music, I'd asked my dad to teach me how to play and he obliged.
By the time I went to senior school, I was a very good player.
Once the music teacher found out, I was coerced into the school "orchestra", a living hell if there ever was one.
Anyway, there was one lad who was really good, he played the cello!
He did have a rather annoying trait, he could pick up any instrument, brass, woodwind, strings, keyboard and play it, it just wasn't an issue for him.
He did end up going to the Royal College of Music.
They are out there!
RATATTAK said:
TCX said:
See quote a few big names,when interviewed claim no knowledge of music theory,right oh!
Want to read a book,need to know the language it's written in,want to play music,need to know some of the 'language',theory
I've absolutely no idea what you're trying to say there ! Want to read a book,need to know the language it's written in,want to play music,need to know some of the 'language',theory
RATATTAK said:
TCX said:
See quote a few big names,when interviewed claim no knowledge of music theory,right oh!
Want to read a book,need to know the language it's written in,want to play music,need to know some of the 'language',theory
I've absolutely no idea what you're trying to say there ! Want to read a book,need to know the language it's written in,want to play music,need to know some of the 'language',theory
TCX said:
You can't read a book unless you understand the language it's written in,it's more pleasurable and interesting to play and listen to music,if you understand the language, theory,it's written,in,quite simple really,like you?
Ironic.What's, with, all, the, the, commas?
Edit to add: disagree entirely. You don't need to know music theory to bang out a few tunes and have fun on any instrument.
bmwmike said:
You don't need to know music theory to bang out a few tunes and have fun on any instrument.
You don't, but it can enrich your grasp of music. I'm pretty sure George Harrison didn't just "bang out" the chord progressions to tunes like "Here Comes The Sun", or "Something", or "While My Guitar Gently Weeps". Gassing Station | Music | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff