Lets look at our guitars thread

[AdeTuono]

singlecoil said:

AdeTuono said:

singlecoil said:

AdeTuono said:

I guess that's a theory. Of sorts.

Happy to hear and discuss your theory, whatever sort it might be

I don't have a theory, just many years of playing numerous guitars and the evidence of my ears.

Maybe it's just a coincidence that the guitars that sound 'better' to my ears tend to be built from the 'better' woods.

IS this in the context of solid electric guitars? Assuming it is, the obvious next question is what are the woods that you would consider to be 'better'?

The reason I ask is because after many year of making complete guitars, necks and bodies I have found that when choosing woods for the body, there is not a lot of difference in the overall cost of the instrument between any of the woods that one might choose. Naturally one is choosing from woods that are suitable from the point of view of ease of machining, sanding and finishing, not to mention stability and availability.

'Better' is, obviously subjective. But there is a world of difference between my old 80's MIJ Strat (basswood/maple) and my RoadWorn 60's Strat (alder/rosewood). Played unplugged the difference is clear; amplified even more so.




My Zappa/Roxy SG (mahogany/mahogany) is unlike a mates 70's Bigsby SG (walnut/rosewood), again, both plugged/unplugged, though the circuitry on the Zappa magnifies the difference, I'm sure.



A quick comparison between a couple of my Epi Les Pauls, once again, plugged/unplugged to remove the electrical part of the equation, shows how dissimilar they are.




I don't have any other 'swapsies' in my collection to compare, but they all have their own voices. Your logic would seem to suggest that, unplugged at least, and given that I use the same strings on all my guitars, they should all sound the same?

[Dr Z]

AdeTuono said:

Well, you can prove anything with facts

There are some on here who deny the whole tone-wood 'thing', despite evidence to the contrary. I mean, what do Fender, Gibson, PRS and hundreds of other companies know? Just after our money, apparently. We're all being hoodwinked.....

Oh...I was rather hoping that this place would be where the luddites hang out!

singlecoil said:

If he had wanted them to sound the same, then he could easily have done that too. The thing is, there are so many things that have an effect on the sound a guitar produces. The type of wood is a long way down the list.

I would suggest that different woods have a tangible and perceptible effect on an amplified electric guitar tone to the player. I'm sure he can make two guitars of the same construction but made of totally different woods/species, sound the same by changing his playing style or adapting. But that isn't the point, the base tone is different and besides that wouldn't be a good experiment. It's just physics (and better hearing!). Whether it sounds different to an audience is another matter. But I'd imagine woods with density and/or total weight at the extreme ends of the scale would have as big an effect on tone that even an audience should readily hear.

Anyway, my experience has been that the body & neck wood influence the tone of an electric guitar. But as acknowledged, there are other factors that have a bigger influence on the tone. I felt that changing to steel frets from nickel had a substantial effect on the high end tone of my tele.

I paid attention to the weight of the mahogany body I have on the way, so it's not massively heavier than the one I have, but to be honest it was more based on aesthetics (and what I know) as I got a chance to order this beautiful brazilian ebony neck from Warmoth and to balance it out nicely with a mahogany body. I'm intimately aware of the tone/sound signature of that strat. I'm hoping that the changes I make give it a nice sustain and won't change the sound too much (I can handle a little change). Can't wait to find out.

Some stock pics:


+

[singlecoil]

AdeTuono said:

...your logic would seem to suggest that, unplugged at least, and given that I use the same strings on all my guitars, they should all sound the same?

I have no position on how solid electric guitars sound unplugged, just as I would not on, for instance, the feel of the controls of a car while it was parked.

I do however happen to own two good quality solid electric guitars of exactly the same model, year, colour even and the same construction.Their serial numbers are not far apart. And guess what, amplified, they sound different. Not much different, but a bit.

I would expect that of any pair of guitars simply because of the other differences that can affect the sound such as the resistance of the controls, the overall impedance of the circuitry at different frequencies, fluctuations in the value of the capacitor etc.

I would prefer to describe my position on this subject as an opinion, rather than logic or theory. And my opinion is that there may well be a difference in the amplified sound of two identical (apart from the wood) guitars but that difference is much less than all the other factors that make up the sound.

It's an opinion because it can't be tested, not in practical terms anyway. I shouldn't think anyone really cares that much. Guitar players are musicians, music is an art, guitar music is an art, and if artists prefer one instrument over another then they are entitled to do so and I fully support that. When I start making guitars and guitar parts again I shall be offering as many different types of wood as I can get, and people want.

[singlecoil]

Dr Z said:

Apologies, I haven't been around these parts for ages...what was the conclusion from the previous discussion?

The thing is different wood species have different densities and that varies too.

As if by magic, I came across this which has been posted recently:

https://youtu.be/nrEar7dgVwI

The guy who posted it claims both mahogany and maple wood planks to have the same density. Sounds different, no?

Here's a response video, it's rather long winded and contains a lot of humour, but the guy is well known and has made a lot a guitar building videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E39Z_lRmMxs

Just like the previous video it doesn't prove anything and I don't think either video contains any reasons why anybody with an interest in the subject need change their opinions about it.

[BrewsterBear]

Here are my three;

Guitars by Adam Croft, on Flickr

Guitars by Adam Croft, on Flickr

Guitars by Adam Croft, on Flickr

Gibson Les Paul Standard, Avalon LMB with special cutaway and a Gibson Midtown.

[Dr Z]

singlecoil said:

Here's a response video, it's rather long winded and contains a lot of humour, but the guy is well known and has made a lot a guitar building videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E39Z_lRmMxs

Just like the previous video it doesn't prove anything and I don't think either video contains any reasons why anybody with an interest in the subject need change their opinions about it.

Sorry, I got up to around 14 min mark and gave up! So far his arguments are:

1) Variation in picking style
2) The test is rigged
3) Placebo effect!

Pretty weak, even if I say so myself!

Does his points/arguments get better later on in the video?

[singlecoil]

There were a lot of weaknesses in the previous video too.

But the main point was that although there may be some difference in the sound between one type of wood and another, even if the density was identical, that difference is absolutely minute compared to a small change in any of the other things that affect the amplified sound on a solid electric.

But discussions about this stuff tend to end up like discussions about religion, you either believe or you don't, each side can easily find evidence supporting their position.

[Mastodon2]

My new old Adamovic Jupiter fretless.

Edited by Mastodon2 on Monday 25th September 00:04

[JLC25]

So Saturday, i popped to Epsom Guitar Guitar for a browse. Have been looking for new amps for a while, mainly second hand, but not found what I want at the price.

So i tried the Astoria Classic head. Great pedal Platform, super nice cleans, can be spanky, bright and get dark as well. Not enough gain even when you hit the front end with a tubescreamer, so that was a no.

The new american custom classic Fenders are really, really nice too. Try one out.

So my search for a nice amp that can handle pedals but can also dish out some grit came to a natural conclusion.

The Line 6 Helix LT - It's coming today and I couldn't be more excited! Hopefully some clips to come at some point once I've wrapped my head around it.

[smn159]

JLC25 said:

So Saturday, i popped to Epsom Guitar Guitar for a browse. Have been looking for new amps for a while, mainly second hand, but not found what I want at the price.

So i tried the Astoria Classic head. Great pedal Platform, super nice cleans, can be spanky, bright and get dark as well. Not enough gain even when you hit the front end with a tubescreamer, so that was a no.

The new american custom classic Fenders are really, really nice too. Try one out.

So my search for a nice amp that can handle pedals but can also dish out some grit came to a natural conclusion.

The Line 6 Helix LT - It's coming today and I couldn't be more excited! Hopefully some clips to come at some point once I've wrapped my head around it.

I bought a Line 6 HD500X recently and it's bloody brilliant - does take a while to get your head around it and the great sounds within aren't immediately forthcoming but I'm starting to get more comfortable it now.

Also bought one of these for £100 from eBay - a Sessionette 2 x 10. It's bloody loud and is currently residing at Award Session having the retro-tone upgrade carried out. I still have a 30W Rockette that I used to gig with for home practice, which sounds excellent with the Line 6 up front.

[JLC25]

smn159 said:

I bought a Line 6 HD500X recently and it's bloody brilliant - does take a while to get your head around it and the great sounds within aren't immediately forthcoming but I'm starting to get more comfortable it now.

I've always sung Line 6's praises - but only ever purchased an M13.

I used to recommend the Flextone to beginners and covers guys - The Vetta to touring guys and studio guys - Unfortunately i didn't quite get along with the HD500 - not sound wise but UI - but I spent enough time with all to get good tones out of them and still recommend them to people. Have a mate with a HD500x set up which sounds ace.

Despite spending all that time i never purchased one - always stayed analogue, purchased a Hiwatt and a 6505+ head.

5 minutes with the Helix and I purchased it. It's that bloody good.

[oddball1313]

I'm of an opposite view with Line 6 gear - had the original Pod XT live which i could never get quite close enough to the sound I wanted and then tried another approach of an M9 into my Marshall JVM Valve amp. The distortions and fuzzes just sound nasty and contrived and the modulations don't even come close to standard Boss pedals. I think their gear always looks better on paper than in practice

[JLC25]

oddball1313 said:

I'm of an opposite view with Line 6 gear - had the original Pod XT live which i could never get quite close enough to the sound I wanted and then tried another approach of an M9 into my Marshall JVM Valve amp. The distortions and fuzzes just sound nasty and contrived and the modulations don't even come close to standard Boss pedals. I think their gear always looks better on paper than in practice

Have you had the chance to try a Helix Unit? Been playing with it out the box tonight. Depth of what you can do and tone is incredible. Once I've got it through some monitors I'm fairly certain the difference will be near on impossible to tell for most people.

I've always used analog gear, but this is genuinely all I can see myself needing for a long time.

[AdeTuono]

JLC25 said:

oddball1313 said:

I'm of an opposite view with Line 6 gear - had the original Pod XT live which i could never get quite close enough to the sound I wanted and then tried another approach of an M9 into my Marshall JVM Valve amp. The distortions and fuzzes just sound nasty and contrived and the modulations don't even come close to standard Boss pedals. I think their gear always looks better on paper than in practice

Have you had the chance to try a Helix Unit? Been playing with it out the box tonight. Depth of what you can do and tone is incredible. Once I've got it through some monitors I'm fairly certain the difference will be near on impossible to tell for most people.

I've always used analog gear, but this is genuinely all I can see myself needing for a long time.

Have to agree with JLC25. I've had my Helix since the first shipment arrived in the UK, and I'm still discovering new stuff all the time. Comparisons to OEM pedals prove to be almost imperceptible (to my ears anyway, and I can generally hear the difference between various tonewoods ). It's a world away from both the Pod and the M9, both of which I've had/have)

[JLC25]

AdeTuono said:

Have to agree with JLC25. I've had my Helix since the first shipment arrived in the UK, and I'm still discovering new stuff all the time. Comparisons to OEM pedals prove to be almost imperceptible (to my ears anyway, and I can generally hear the difference between various tonewoods ). It's a world away from both the Pod and the M9, both of which I've had/have)

I'm having lots of joy with silver/blackface sounds. A small but of reverb to recreate the "body" of having amp in room, the "Minotaur" (hmm...) as a clean boost and a parametric eq. You really hear the character of your guitar too. High gain times are going to take a bit more work!

I think the wood argument lies somewhere between what's stated on both sides here. I've played a few Pine telecasters, and they definitely have unique tone.

[singlecoil]

Purely as an aside, it's also possible to hear the difference in two guitars made from exactly the same 'tonewood'

[JLC25]

singlecoil said:

Purely as an aside, it's also possible to hear the difference in two guitars made from exactly the same 'tonewood'

Of course! construction etc. comes into it. But take 10 pine tele's off the same Fender production line and they will all be in the ballpark of each other, same with taking 10 alder teles or 10 rosewood teles. They'll all have individual quirks, but be ball park of each other, but the ones with different woods will be further from each other - again how much by could depend on a few other factors but it's certainly a factor to consider.

[singlecoil]

JLC25 said:

singlecoil said:

Purely as an aside, it's also possible to hear the difference in two guitars made from exactly the same 'tonewood'

Of course! construction etc. comes into it. But take 10 pine tele's off the same Fender production line and they will all be in the ballpark of each other, same with taking 10 alder teles or 10 rosewood teles. They'll all have individual quirks, but be ball park of each other, but the ones with different woods will be further from each other - again how much by could depend on a few other factors but it's certainly a factor to consider.

The main factor will be the density, I think that if a pine body were exactly the same weight as an alder one then the difference would be negligible. But most pine is less dense than most alder, so I would expect a pine guitar which was otherwise identical to have a different ADSR envelope to an alder one.

[JLC25]

singlecoil said:

The main factor will be the density, I think that if a pine body were exactly the same weight as an alder one then the difference would be negligible. But most pine is less dense than most alder, so I would expect a pine guitar which was otherwise identical to have a different ADSR envelope to an alder one.

Ahh well just stick EMGs in so they all sound the same I guess!

[dojo]

singlecoil said:

Purely as an aside, it's also possible to hear the difference in two guitars made from exactly the same 'tonewood'

Not read the whole back & forth on this but seen pretty extensive threads on gear and builders forums and it seems the general thought is that the wood plays a small part in the over all sound, pickups, construction techniques, hardware etc affect the output more ...