Lets look at our guitars thread
Discussion
That ESP is no slouch. Forgive me, not trying to steal your thunder, but I was prompted by your lovely Tele.
www.ronkirn.com for more info.
www.ronkirn.com for more info.
Edited by Justin Cyder on Saturday 8th September 22:31
Justin Cyder said:
That ESP is no slouch. Forgive me, not trying to steal your thunder, but I was prompted by your lovely Tele.
www.ronkirn.com for more info.
Ah! I was about to ask if yours is a Ron Kirn build! You lucky man. Enjoy! www.ronkirn.com for more info.
Edited by Justin Cyder on Saturday 8th September 22:31
Justin Cyder said:
I've just coughed up for one of these. There's a video or two knocking around of this guy building these & artisinal doesn't capture it at all. V. excited that this is coming. The wood is 200 year old Loblolly pine reclaimed from buildings.
Lovely looking guitar Justin. This caught my eye recently...
http://www.themusiczoo.com/product/10879/Fender-Cu...
bennyboysvuk said:
That looks like a nice spec guitar. I love that it has Seymour Duncans in it at a reasonable price. Having used JBs in my LP and SG it's fair to say that I'm a bit of a Seymour Duncan fan.
Yep, that squire deluxe strat looks very nice. Have thought about putting black SDs or EMGs into my black with white cover fender strat. Seeing this photo suggests it would look niceDriller said:
Well yeah, not just body shape but combined with the neck, headstock, bridge, control knobs etc again not wanting to put a downer on it but it's identical save the name.
Well actually some of them are much nicer ever
Hardly a unique situation though, is it? Copies have been around for a while, or have you not noticed?Well actually some of them are much nicer ever
Driller said:
Well yeah, not just body shape but combined with the neck, headstock, bridge, control knobs etc again not wanting to put a downer on it but it's identical save the name.
Well actually some of them are much nicer ever
Well, I wouldn't say they're identical except the name on the headstock. For example, my ESP's headstock looks very different to a Fender tele. I'm not a big fan of the fender tele headstock, so I gravitated towards this ESP. It also feels nothing like a Fender at a similar price range (MIM for example). Well actually some of them are much nicer ever
The superficial things like bridge/control knobs/pickup config look similar but the feel of the instrument is very different, especially the neck and frets. The neck is a tiny bit chunkier than a Fender standard "modern C" (I think ESP calls it 'thin U'-sounds about right except the 'thin' bit). The frets were very different: as tall (maybe even taller than) the Jumbo that Fender puts on their American Special strats/teles but not as wide. Absolutely loved it! Way back when I tried an American Special strat, I thought if only the frets were just a bit narrow it'd be great, so when I played this ESP, I was like, man it's exactly the correct size!
Oh I bet you've never seen a neck joint like that on a Fender. Even the custom shop/MIA Deluxe strats don't have it like this. These are the things that make a guitar different to a player, so the difference is night and day, with respect to an onlooker. I think this is the whole point: make the guitar look similar to a classic shape but put your own spin on the feel-the kind of thing people like me are attracted to. I'm not saying this because I bought something with a different name on the headstock and I feel the need to justify!
(No siree) And I bet that Ron Kirn feels very different too. Not to mention the wood quality and the pickups.Great post Dr. Z, it's exactly that isn't it? The differences are in the feel, the tone & the attitude of the instrument. You nailed that bang on the head, they're like twins, they look the same, but spend a little time & you soon see the differences.
As for the legal side, it's all business, the copy guys usually do enough to get round the patents, but Fender are a pragmatic business, when they realised they had created their own competition by demeaning Leo's legacy with careless mass production and subsequently letting in superior Japanese copies, they bought a business in Japan & sold them as MIJ strats. Some of those guitars are so good, especially the early Tokai strats that they're known as lawsuit guitars & are very sought after in their own right.
As for the legal side, it's all business, the copy guys usually do enough to get round the patents, but Fender are a pragmatic business, when they realised they had created their own competition by demeaning Leo's legacy with careless mass production and subsequently letting in superior Japanese copies, they bought a business in Japan & sold them as MIJ strats. Some of those guitars are so good, especially the early Tokai strats that they're known as lawsuit guitars & are very sought after in their own right.
OK
Justin, don't get me wrong, I love the guitar you've ordered, it's beautiful and it looks to be fantastic quality. I would definitely buy one myself and I couldn't give a hoot about Fender and business, I'm sure they make enough money as it is.
I'm just surprised that these other companies are allowed to make guitars which are, to all intents and purposes, identical to the Fender.
In any other industry (cars etc)a copy so close wouldn't be allowed.
Justin, don't get me wrong, I love the guitar you've ordered, it's beautiful and it looks to be fantastic quality. I would definitely buy one myself and I couldn't give a hoot about Fender and business, I'm sure they make enough money as it is.
I'm just surprised that these other companies are allowed to make guitars which are, to all intents and purposes, identical to the Fender.
In any other industry (cars etc)a copy so close wouldn't be allowed.
Fender & Gibson have issued plenty of cease & desist notices over the years, but they generally don't bother to pursue the copyists unless the guitars are virtually identical. Different manufacturers protect different elements of their designs.
Fender are very zealous when it comes to the headstock shapes on the strat & tele & Gibson chase anyone who copies the open book design of the Les Paul headstock. PRS sue if you use their bird in flight inlays or their bevelled cutaways.
The Fender lawsuit IIRC was about trying to trademark the body designs of the Strat & Tele & lost because it was heavily opposed by dozens of manufacturers as an attempt to reverse history I.e. it has gone on for decades & so the body designs were not sufficiently different from the copies to warrant a trademark even though they are obviously copies. Tokai were one of the worst:
As an aside, Fender don't actually make very much money as a business. Their Return on capital is about 2-3%. this all came out in the recently shelved IPO filings. Making guitars it seems is not necessarily a path to riches.
Fender are very zealous when it comes to the headstock shapes on the strat & tele & Gibson chase anyone who copies the open book design of the Les Paul headstock. PRS sue if you use their bird in flight inlays or their bevelled cutaways.
The Fender lawsuit IIRC was about trying to trademark the body designs of the Strat & Tele & lost because it was heavily opposed by dozens of manufacturers as an attempt to reverse history I.e. it has gone on for decades & so the body designs were not sufficiently different from the copies to warrant a trademark even though they are obviously copies. Tokai were one of the worst:
As an aside, Fender don't actually make very much money as a business. Their Return on capital is about 2-3%. this all came out in the recently shelved IPO filings. Making guitars it seems is not necessarily a path to riches.
Edited by Justin Cyder on Monday 10th September 09:54
Oh right. That's fair game then as regards to Fender, trying to retrospectively trademark it. I remember when Gibson sued PRS for a similar body shape infringement and PRS stopped producing their SC245 and I remember PRS proclaiming it's all been cleared and they'll start making it, but it looks like they've started doing this in their SC58 guise?
ETA: I guess in the guitar world, it is easy to demonstrate the differences in two identical looking guitars and how this in turn impacts the player's opinion and the usability. Of course, if there are obvious differences such as the headstock design it is going to be harder for the Big Boys to prove you're infringing. I'm not sure if this can even be compared to the car industry with any real meaning?
ETA: I guess in the guitar world, it is easy to demonstrate the differences in two identical looking guitars and how this in turn impacts the player's opinion and the usability. Of course, if there are obvious differences such as the headstock design it is going to be harder for the Big Boys to prove you're infringing. I'm not sure if this can even be compared to the car industry with any real meaning?
Edited by Dr Z on Monday 10th September 10:47
All interesting stuff guys.
I don't know, I just find it ironic that these instruments are being made to make music and one of the really important things about songs is that they are original.
For me, being original is one of the most important things when you are creating something.
If someone wrote a song that was as close to an existing one as those guitars are to the Telecaster, all hell would break loose and rightly so.
Obviously as Justin says, this is a debate that has been going for decades and will surely continue to do so.
I don't know, I just find it ironic that these instruments are being made to make music and one of the really important things about songs is that they are original.
For me, being original is one of the most important things when you are creating something.
If someone wrote a song that was as close to an existing one as those guitars are to the Telecaster, all hell would break loose and rightly so.
Obviously as Justin says, this is a debate that has been going for decades and will surely continue to do so.
Tokais are known to be high quality instruments & certainly the older ones are quite desirable in their own right as instruments, but it's around the late seventies, early eighties that the guitars became generically known as 'lawsuit guitars' because of the patent infringement stuff. I would say all things being equal, hang on to it & enjoy it if it's a decent guitar to play.
I'll take if off your hands for fifty quid
I'll take if off your hands for fifty quid
Edited by Justin Cyder on Monday 10th September 11:12
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