Mixing desk upgrade dilemma!
Discussion
I want to increase the number of channels that I have from 16 to 32, but I'm not sure which is the best way to go about it. I currently have a Mackie CR1604-VLZ which I love, and want to stay with Mackie because I've enjoyed working with their stuff so much... but I'm not sure which option of the three that I've identified would be the best to choose. Here's what I've come up with...
Option 1:
Keep my CR1604-VLZ and buy a second Mackie CR1604-VLZ and a Tapco (by Mackie) Mix100.
Pros:
The two Mackie CR1604-VLZs would give me the 32 channels I need and the Tapco Mix 100 would give me one stereo pair for each Mackie CR1604-VLZ to be channelled into, one stereo pair for my Mac, and a spare stereo pair, as well as two mono channels.
Cons:
The Tapco is a budget mixer so, while it is made by Mackie, it might not have quite the quality I'm used to from the CR1604-VLZ.
Each signal would be passing through two mixing desks. Would this result in some noticeable noise being added to the signal? I've never noticed any noise at all on Mackie stuff, but am I pushing my luck having a signal go through two desks?
Option 2:
Keep my CR1604-VLZ and buy a Mackie CFX20.
Pros:
The CFX20 has 16 mono channels and two stereo pairs, so I'd gain the extra 16 mono channels that I want and have two stereo pairs as well - one for the CR1604-VLZ to be channelled through and one for my Mac, and could, therefore, merge everything together without buying a third mixer as would be the case in Option 1.
Cons:
It is sold as a 'live' mixer, so would it be suitable for studio use?
The signal coming from the CR1604-VLZ would be passing through a second mixing desk. Would this result in some noticeable noise being added to the signal? I've never noticed any noise at all on Mackie stuff, but am I pushing my luck having a signal go through two desks?
Option 3:
Sell my CR1604-VLZ and buy a Mackie 32:8.
Pros:
No signal would pass through more than one mixing desk.
Cons:
The 32:8 is very expensive (due to being specced beyond my requirements) so I'd have to buy a used one.
It's larger than I really want a mixing desk to be given the amount of space I have for it.
Two of the 32 mono channels would be taken up by my Mac, so I'd lose two of the extra 16 channels that are provided by Options 1 and 2.
So... what do folks think?
Option 1:
Keep my CR1604-VLZ and buy a second Mackie CR1604-VLZ and a Tapco (by Mackie) Mix100.
Pros:
The two Mackie CR1604-VLZs would give me the 32 channels I need and the Tapco Mix 100 would give me one stereo pair for each Mackie CR1604-VLZ to be channelled into, one stereo pair for my Mac, and a spare stereo pair, as well as two mono channels.
Cons:
The Tapco is a budget mixer so, while it is made by Mackie, it might not have quite the quality I'm used to from the CR1604-VLZ.
Each signal would be passing through two mixing desks. Would this result in some noticeable noise being added to the signal? I've never noticed any noise at all on Mackie stuff, but am I pushing my luck having a signal go through two desks?
Option 2:
Keep my CR1604-VLZ and buy a Mackie CFX20.
Pros:
The CFX20 has 16 mono channels and two stereo pairs, so I'd gain the extra 16 mono channels that I want and have two stereo pairs as well - one for the CR1604-VLZ to be channelled through and one for my Mac, and could, therefore, merge everything together without buying a third mixer as would be the case in Option 1.
Cons:
It is sold as a 'live' mixer, so would it be suitable for studio use?
The signal coming from the CR1604-VLZ would be passing through a second mixing desk. Would this result in some noticeable noise being added to the signal? I've never noticed any noise at all on Mackie stuff, but am I pushing my luck having a signal go through two desks?
Option 3:
Sell my CR1604-VLZ and buy a Mackie 32:8.
Pros:
No signal would pass through more than one mixing desk.
Cons:
The 32:8 is very expensive (due to being specced beyond my requirements) so I'd have to buy a used one.
It's larger than I really want a mixing desk to be given the amount of space I have for it.
Two of the 32 mono channels would be taken up by my Mac, so I'd lose two of the extra 16 channels that are provided by Options 1 and 2.
So... what do folks think?
What are you trying to do with the setup?
Do you need 32 channels?
Its just that if a 32 channel desk is physically big, having instruments with 32 channels is a bit bigger....!
I had the same desk a few years ago. Excellent bit of kit, Mackie stuff is built very well at the price point.
Do you need 32 channels?
Its just that if a 32 channel desk is physically big, having instruments with 32 channels is a bit bigger....!
I had the same desk a few years ago. Excellent bit of kit, Mackie stuff is built very well at the price point.
I do need 32 channels, yes. My collection of synths would occupy most of them and I'd have a few left for some other items I'd like to add later when I have more space. Combining two CR1604-VLZs or a CR1604-VLZ and a Tapco Mix100 would not take up a big amount of space - it's only if I went to a 32:8 that it would start causing a problem.
Do you have all the synths going all the time? It will be a major wall of sound if you did!
A patchbay system would enable you to have quick access to the outputs.
I use a rackmount line level sub mixer, a Samson PL1602, to bring a 8 stereo keyboard and synth mix into the main desk - It has minimal EQ and enough aux sends and insert points to patch in reverbs and compressors as needed.
Just a thought.
Koenig
A patchbay system would enable you to have quick access to the outputs.
I use a rackmount line level sub mixer, a Samson PL1602, to bring a 8 stereo keyboard and synth mix into the main desk - It has minimal EQ and enough aux sends and insert points to patch in reverbs and compressors as needed.
Just a thought.
Koenig
I don't have all the synths going all the time, but I would like to have them all permanently 'pumbed-in' so that the creative process is disrupted as little as possible if I decide that I want a particular synth for a particular part. Maybe all the synths accessible via a patch bay with loose cables from my existing mixer, ready to be plugged into the relevant sockets in the patch bay, would be the way to go. I don't actually need any more than 16 channels for any one piece of music, so no point buying another mixer if I can avoid it.
There you are then - 2 x 24 channel patch bays, with your favourite synths normalised into Chl 1-16, and rest just 2 leads to be plugged in when you need them.
I manage this with 6 x 24 balanced patch bays from Studiospares
I also have the mixer insert points wired in normalised with an unbalanced 24 patch bay, ready to send guitars / basses etc. to compressors.
Patch bay £££££ cheaper than mixer!
Koenig
I manage this with 6 x 24 balanced patch bays from Studiospares
I also have the mixer insert points wired in normalised with an unbalanced 24 patch bay, ready to send guitars / basses etc. to compressors.
Patch bay £££££ cheaper than mixer!
Koenig
Edited by koenig999 on Sunday 13th April 17:27
Edited by koenig999 on Sunday 13th April 17:28
Who makes the best patch bays? As they aren't hugely expensive I might as well buy the best quality that I can. I notice that there are a few under £100, and some over £100... but I don't know what the best make is. All I want is something simple, maybe 2x24 (that would give me plenty of channels to work with) and the absolute best quality. I'm not bothered about features - just something basic and engineered to the highest standard that won't add noise to the signal.
Am I right in saying that 2x24 is the same as 1x48, or does it need to be treated specifically as 24 stereo pairs?
Am I right in saying that 2x24 is the same as 1x48, or does it need to be treated specifically as 24 stereo pairs?
Most decent patch bays can be configured the way you want, either by switches, or by turning the pcbs around. Some have solder links you have to make or break - I wouldn't use those, far too much bother.
Do you know about normalising> - this is where you set up the patch bay so the ins are always connected to the outs, unless you break the circuit by plugging a cable in.
So you can use them as 1 x 48, all the synths plugged in the back, not normalised, then leads over to the mixer inputs,
or
2 x 24, with the mixer inputs connected to the outs with 2 x 8 way jack snakes, and the synths on the inputs, with your favourite 12 stereo ones available , with88 normalised to chl 1 - 16. - No other leads required then,
Studiospares ones are
1) balanced (can be used just as well with unbalanced)
2) Can be normalised just by undoing one nut on each block of 4 sockets and turning it over.
3) cheap (less than £60)
http://www.studiospares.com/pd_401170_48%20WAY%20E...
I have never had one go wrong, and they have always worked.
Try to keep to one make, it making swapping bits over easier, and looks more regular as you grow the rack.
Good luck,
Koenig
Do you know about normalising> - this is where you set up the patch bay so the ins are always connected to the outs, unless you break the circuit by plugging a cable in.
So you can use them as 1 x 48, all the synths plugged in the back, not normalised, then leads over to the mixer inputs,
or
2 x 24, with the mixer inputs connected to the outs with 2 x 8 way jack snakes, and the synths on the inputs, with your favourite 12 stereo ones available , with88 normalised to chl 1 - 16. - No other leads required then,
Studiospares ones are
1) balanced (can be used just as well with unbalanced)
2) Can be normalised just by undoing one nut on each block of 4 sockets and turning it over.
3) cheap (less than £60)
http://www.studiospares.com/pd_401170_48%20WAY%20E...
I have never had one go wrong, and they have always worked.
Try to keep to one make, it making swapping bits over easier, and looks more regular as you grow the rack.
Good luck,
Koenig
Edited by koenig999 on Sunday 13th April 17:54
I must admit, you're getting away from me a bit now! I've always muddled-along really - I'm no expert!! I don't really know what 'normalised' means, or what 'balanced' and 'unbalanced' mean either.
What I want to achieve is the following...
All my synths permanently plugged into the patch bay. Connections between the patch bay and the mixing desk made as and when appropriate during any given session. Basically the best patch bay money can buy that will enable me to achieve that with the minimum of fuss is what I'm after.
What I want to achieve is the following...
All my synths permanently plugged into the patch bay. Connections between the patch bay and the mixing desk made as and when appropriate during any given session. Basically the best patch bay money can buy that will enable me to achieve that with the minimum of fuss is what I'm after.
What I said, a normalised patch bay that allows you to leave both the mixing desk and the synths plugged in at the back of the patch bay, no wires at the front.
Plug in a jump lead from one other patch socket to an input, breaks the path and that becomes the input into the desk - Easy!
Balanced = TRS 1/4" jack plugs (Tip - Ring - Sleeve) The cable shield is grounded, and the balanced configuration makes the cable more immune to RFI and noise.
Most synths outputs are 1/4" jack Unbalanced TS (Tip / sleeve)
Go for balanced leads and patch bays, for when you get better outboard, like compressors, EQ reverb that work balanced - or computer outputs like the Echo + better systems that work balanced.
Balanced is lower noise, better fidelity.
You can get cheaper patch bays, like Behringer for £30 - I have a few, but not as good build qulity as Studiospares.
You will need a load of wires as well - I used "snakes", like 8 or 16 jack cables bound together in like a hosepipe, makes everything neater and easier to follow.
HTH
Koenig
Plug in a jump lead from one other patch socket to an input, breaks the path and that becomes the input into the desk - Easy!
Balanced = TRS 1/4" jack plugs (Tip - Ring - Sleeve) The cable shield is grounded, and the balanced configuration makes the cable more immune to RFI and noise.
Most synths outputs are 1/4" jack Unbalanced TS (Tip / sleeve)
Go for balanced leads and patch bays, for when you get better outboard, like compressors, EQ reverb that work balanced - or computer outputs like the Echo + better systems that work balanced.
Balanced is lower noise, better fidelity.
You can get cheaper patch bays, like Behringer for £30 - I have a few, but not as good build qulity as Studiospares.
You will need a load of wires as well - I used "snakes", like 8 or 16 jack cables bound together in like a hosepipe, makes everything neater and easier to follow.
HTH
Koenig
MitchT said:
Who makes the best patch bays? As they aren't hugely expensive I might as well buy the best quality that I can. I notice that there are a few under £100, and some over £100... but I don't know what the best make is. All I want is something simple, maybe 2x24 (that would give me plenty of channels to work with) and the absolute best quality. I'm not bothered about features - just something basic and engineered to the highest standard that won't add noise to the signal.
Am I right in saying that 2x24 is the same as 1x48, or does it need to be treated specifically as 24 stereo pairs?
Are you looking to do this for purely monitoring purposes, or for recording?Am I right in saying that 2x24 is the same as 1x48, or does it need to be treated specifically as 24 stereo pairs?
Looking at it from a perfectionist recording engineer point of view, either of the options will add some noise. If you effectively get two desks and then a third desk to mix to stereo is probably the worst.
The most 'creatively efficient' way of working most engineers choose is to assign instruments to particular channels, and leave them there. Firstly, after a while of having a mixing desk which is always 1: Kick 2:Snare and so on allows you to do this without engaging your brain, it also means that you can mark up the desk which instrument is which. Thirdly, by assigning instruments, if you use a particular chain of outboard gear for a particular instrument, then you can leave this set up on that channel without playing around each time.
A patchbay may on the face of it seem cheaper, but a cheapy patchbay is no good for recording. Secondly, the cost of the cabling will most likely outweigh the cost of the patchbay - or at least it should!
Okay... I'm sort of getting it.
If I have a collection of synths with a total of 32 outs between them, do I need a 2x16 or a 2x32 patch bay?
What I want is for all of the outputs from all of my synths to be permanently connected to the patch bay and to decide, as I am working on a piece, which synths I would subsequently like to connect to the 16ch desk, either by plugging cables from the desk into the relevant outputs on the patch bay, or by having some type of permanent connection which can be manipulated as appropriate.
Sorry if I'm frustrating you... I'm frustrating myself!
If I have a collection of synths with a total of 32 outs between them, do I need a 2x16 or a 2x32 patch bay?
What I want is for all of the outputs from all of my synths to be permanently connected to the patch bay and to decide, as I am working on a piece, which synths I would subsequently like to connect to the 16ch desk, either by plugging cables from the desk into the relevant outputs on the patch bay, or by having some type of permanent connection which can be manipulated as appropriate.
Sorry if I'm frustrating you... I'm frustrating myself!
You need 1 x 48 port patch bay
Patch set = 16 mixer input channels, normallised with your 16 most used synth outputs, and then the remaining 8 pairs set up un-normalised, for a further 16 outputs.
16 mixer channels + 16 fav synths + 16 other synths = 48 ports = 1 patchbay
There! job done!
You will need the snakes / wires / short patch leads as well.
Koenig
Patch set = 16 mixer input channels, normallised with your 16 most used synth outputs, and then the remaining 8 pairs set up un-normalised, for a further 16 outputs.
16 mixer channels + 16 fav synths + 16 other synths = 48 ports = 1 patchbay
There! job done!
You will need the snakes / wires / short patch leads as well.
Koenig
Supposing I don't have 16 fave synths as such as I just want to choose what I want to use as I go along. Is it possible to just plug everything (cables from all 32 synth outputs and cables to all 16 desk inputs) into the back of the patch bay, and then connect specific synths to specific channels on the desk by connecting the sockets on the front of the patch bay?... e.g. Roland JP-8000 outputs L and R are connected to 1 and 2 on the back of the patch bay and channels 1 and 2 on the mixer are connected to 33 and 34 on the back of the patch bay... I want the JP-8000 to come through channels 1 and 2 on the desk so I use patching cables to connect 1 to 33 and 2 to 34 on the front of the patch bay... Is that right?
Edited by MitchT on Sunday 13th April 20:35
Yes,
There are 2 row of 24 sockets on the back, and 2 rows of 24 sockets on the front
All the cables to the mixer and synths plug into the back.
Normalised means that if nothing is plugged in, the top back socket is connected to the bottom back socket. If something is plugged in the front, that overides it.
Although if you have synths you use a lot, you can normalise them through to Chl 1 - 16. It just saves having to patch them in. If you want, you can override them by plugging another cable in.
Think of normalising like having a very short cable from the top socket in a row to the bottom socket, but you don't actually have to plug it in.
HTH
Koenig
There are 2 row of 24 sockets on the back, and 2 rows of 24 sockets on the front
All the cables to the mixer and synths plug into the back.
Normalised means that if nothing is plugged in, the top back socket is connected to the bottom back socket. If something is plugged in the front, that overides it.
Although if you have synths you use a lot, you can normalise them through to Chl 1 - 16. It just saves having to patch them in. If you want, you can override them by plugging another cable in.
Think of normalising like having a very short cable from the top socket in a row to the bottom socket, but you don't actually have to plug it in.
HTH
Koenig
That all makes sense now. The only issue I'm having is finding a patch bay that is numbered 1-48. They all seem to have just 1-24 on them, which seems a tad confusing when I'm trying to think in terms of 48 channels (32 things coming in and 16 going out), but I guess once the labels have the relevant things written on it won't matter.
JustinP1 points out that a cheaper patch bay might be no good for recording. As recording will be its main use, can you recommend a patch bay that will be suitable for recording, and the best make of cable to use with it? The price isn't really an issue - remember, I was prepared to fork out for least one more mixing desk, so based on what I've seen patch bays priced at, compared to mixing desks, I doubt that going for the best patch bay will present an obstacle.
JustinP1 points out that a cheaper patch bay might be no good for recording. As recording will be its main use, can you recommend a patch bay that will be suitable for recording, and the best make of cable to use with it? The price isn't really an issue - remember, I was prepared to fork out for least one more mixing desk, so based on what I've seen patch bays priced at, compared to mixing desks, I doubt that going for the best patch bay will present an obstacle.
If quality is important, get a Studiospares enhanced patch balanced bay = £60 and decent balanced cable = about £30 for an 8 way snake. You will of course need a series of 2 cables for eeach stereo output.
Don't buy the cheapest cables, get smething like Van Damme, or if you are handy with a soldering iron, make your own from quality microphone cable and metal bodied stereo jack plugs.
Koenig
Don't buy the cheapest cables, get smething like Van Damme, or if you are handy with a soldering iron, make your own from quality microphone cable and metal bodied stereo jack plugs.
Koenig
Not being funny... but do you work for Studiospares? You seem to be very keen to push their stuff. I'm not saying it isn't great gear, but I've already asserted that I'm happy to spend whatever it takes to get the best 48ch patch bay, and have seen some for about £260, yet you're keen that I buy the Studiospares one for a fraction of that amount. If the Studiospares one really is as good as money can buy then it makes perfect sense for me to buy one... but at £200 less than some others I've seen is it going to be as good?
No, just a satisfied customer
What other patchbays have you come across?
If you want to you can spend a fortune on a patchbay, it won't make any difference to the sound quality - They are passive devices, and apart from every now and again plugging and unplugging the jacks there is no more to do.
Don't get an expensive bantam based patchbay as used in pro studios - you will need a load of different cables or adapters.
Koenig
What other patchbays have you come across?
If you want to you can spend a fortune on a patchbay, it won't make any difference to the sound quality - They are passive devices, and apart from every now and again plugging and unplugging the jacks there is no more to do.
Don't get an expensive bantam based patchbay as used in pro studios - you will need a load of different cables or adapters.
Koenig
I just wondered. I've seen a few at a variety of prices ranging from below £50 to nearly £300. I'd rather spend £300 than compromise on sound quality, but if you're telling me that I won't hear a difference between the Studiospares item at £60 and a £300 patch bay, then there's no sense in spending £300.
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