Auto vs manual off road

[300bhp/ton]

Lefty Guns said:

Alicatt1 said:

Had a manual 4.2TD 80 series Landcruiser, great vehicle and with the right tyres on fantastic off road, that was 12 years ago, now I have a Range Rover Sport TDV8 and it is an auto with terrain response. It makes offroading so much easier and it can go lots of places which the LC couldn't go.
.

I have no experience of the new RR but I'm frankly astonished at this statement!

They are good. And as long as the terrain doesn't mean it's physically too big they are very capable. Most of it is down to the electronics. The fractional control does a very good job of pretending to be diff lockers. Basically preventing you getting cross axled and sitting there spinning the power away on the wheels in the air. This makes a huge difference. Even the mighty Defender can easily
be stopped if you get two diagonal wheels in the air (non traction control models). This also helps hugly on slippery surfaces where traditional open diffs will keep sending the power all over the places as different wheels slip and lose grip. It's this very reason even a Freelander 1 is better in the snow than a Disco 1 or classic Rangie.

Next is the suspension, while it has full indipendant suspension it sort of cheats. It has air bladders that push the opporsite wheel down when the other is forced up. This mimicks aive axle quite well and helps the RRS/D3 to keeps it's wheels on the ground.

That said a Defender with traction control or something like a Wrangler Rubicon with it's factory fitted diff lockers would ultimatley still be as capable if not more so. But compared to more
traditinal 4x4's running open diffs and no traction aides the new breed of Land Rovers are very impressive.

[300bhp/ton]

Bill said:

Alicatt1 said:

Up until I drove the RRS I would have said manual and solid axels every time, but, technology moves on now the newer vehicles are just as or more than competent as the old er ones.

But also heavier and more complicated, which is an issue if you're planning to take your family to Morocco. I'm pretty confident I can bodge a manual or solid axles if needs be, but I wouldn't know where to start with a D3.

But don't you face this same issue with pretty much any new vehicle? And while old tech is often less complex I'm not fully sold on people being able to fix the old stuff at the side of the road with nothing more than duct tape and a screw driver.

[pugwash4x4]

Alicatt1 said:

Had a manual 4.2TD 80 series Landcruiser, great vehicle and with the right tyres on fantastic off road, that was 12 years ago, now I have a Range Rover Sport TDV8 and it is an auto with terrain response. It makes offroading so much easier and it can go lots of places which the LC couldn't go.
Up until I drove the RRS I would have said manual and solid axels every time, but, technology moves on now the newer vehicles are just as or more than competent as the old er ones.

Get youself a Landrover Experience free halfday trial and take out a D3 or RRS and find out how good an autobox 4x4 can be.

I often go on expeiditinos and laning days with 2 friends who own a D3 TDV6 and a RR TDV8- I have a LC80 12v Auto. I am yet to get stuck with them, whereas they get stuck on numerous occasions- in sand the D3 was in a whole world of pain. both drivers are more skilled than i am.

you can't beat Beam axles and 3 solid lockers along with great articulation- at the most new LRs have one rear locker and they certainly don't have the articulation of either an LC80 or a 90/110- its far too easy to lift a wheel.

Thats not to say that new landrovers aren't superior 99.99% of the time (because they are- and i've give my back teeth to own one), but when going gets really tough, they do tend to fall behind somewhat.

Bak to the OP- the only place a manual is better than an auto is under engine braking- but you can get round it with cadence braking. Autos have better climibing ability, FAR better slow speed control (if you set the revs at 2k and control speed with your left foot on the brake you will crawl over anything). Drivetrains are better protected by the auto, and the ability to boot it going up hill is a godsend. There is a reason why a lot of the top challenge drivers in the UK are going auto!

[A M G]

Auto for me, every time - depends a lot on the nature of the ground, but the ability to maintain momentum in mud is a big plus. You do sacrifice a little in control downhill, but in low-range 1st I've never had a problem.

I also like the ability to left-foot brake to stop tyre slippage, whilst keeping revs up.

[Lefty Guns]

pugwash4x4 said:

you can't beat Beam axles and 3 solid lockers along with great articulation- at the most new LRs have one rear locker and they certainly don't have the articulation of either an LC80 or a 90/110- its far too easy to lift a wheel.

This was my understanding too. Lockers aren't the be-all and end-all IMHO but, used, properly, will certainly help. Engaging them when stuck will 9 times out of 10 get you more stuck! Better to use them to stop you getting stuck in the first place...

The best offroad vehicle I've ever driven was my old Unimog s404. Front and rear lockers, very low gearing, massive articulation and only 80bhp. Manual box obviously but with gearing so low (and bearing in mind that I didn't have the optional crawler gears fitted) I never once stalled it and rarely needed to slip the clutch. No electronics!

[Bill]

300bhp/ton said:

But don't you face this same issue with pretty much any new vehicle? And while old tech is often less complex I'm not fully sold on people being able to fix the old stuff at the side of the road with nothing more than duct tape and a screw driver.

Yep, and while I appreciate that the duct tape and cable ties approach won't be enough to fix it it'd be nice to have some idea of what's going on

[300bhp/ton]

Bill said:

300bhp/ton said:

But don't you face this same issue with pretty much any new vehicle? And while old tech is often less complex I'm not fully sold on people being able to fix the old stuff at the side of the road with nothing more than duct tape and a screw driver.

Yep, and while I appreciate that the duct tape and cable ties approach won't be enough to fix it it'd be nice to have some idea of what's going on

Have you thought of looking at a Jeep Wrangler?

The current JK model was a brand new design in 2005. It uses a modern CAD designed ladder chassis with a steel body tub meeting all crash/safety regs. Underneith it runs strong Dana 44 live axles so are unlikely to break even with 35" mud tyres. But should they then they are of similar layout to a Defender live axle setup. Engine wise it uses an off the shelf 2.8 CRD diesel. Ok it's ECU controlled but so are all new cars these days.

The Unlimited model is the LWB variant with 5 doors and a 116" wheelbase although it's slight shorter than a Disco 3 overall. It also weights a fair bit less too so while it's not quite as powerful it offers similar performance. The Sahara model comes fully loaded and with an auto while the Sport is lower spec and can be had with either a manual or auto.

The UK models don't have diff lockers sadly (although you could fit them aftermarket) but all are equipped with a pretty sophisticated traction control system. The only thing to watch is some Sport models come on tiny wheels so this hinders ground clearance. But all models will happily ride on 32" tyres without modification.

I went on Jeep day a couple of years back and was truly impresse with the new Wrangle. This is coming from a Land Rover nut BTW (currently have 2 Landy's and I've driven a few Disco 3's). I would say the Disco 3 is more car like onthe road but I'm not sure this is such a good thing as I like my 4x4's to be 4x4's. But the Wrangler was certainly well behaved on the road and I'd have no issue driving on 300+ miles or using it as a daily driver.

[Bill]

300bhp/ton said:

Have you thought of looking at a Jeep Wrangler?

Despite an irrational dislike of them I have, but unfortunately I need to get three kids' seats in the back (SWMBO is expecting twins) and I don't think they'll fit. If they did they'd fit in a Defender and I'd get one of those.

TBH the D3 is aimed squarely at me as it will be used primarily on road (and I can't bring myself to get a people carrier). I'm just struggling to get past my (erm, irrational) distrust of elastic-trickery. Particularly Ladrover elastic-trickery

[300bhp/ton]

I've not bee in a 110 for a while, but is there really not enough room for 3 baby seats in it?

The Wrangler Unlimited (similar size to a 110) also has a descent bench style rear seat:



just curious but is there any reason why you hate Jeep? I only ask as a lot of people in the UK seem to be like it and most of them Land Rover people. I sometimes wonder if it's some sort of complex?? Lol

[Bill]

300bhp/ton said:

I've not bee in a 110 for a while, but is there really not enough room for 3 baby seats in it?

The Wrangler Unlimited (similar size to a 110) also has a descent bench style rear seat:



just curious but is there any reason why you hate Jeep? I only ask as a lot of people in the UK seem to be like it and most of them Land Rover people. I sometimes wonder if it's some sort of complex?? Lol

I did say it was irrational Sprog seats these days are vast.

[Lefty Guns]

If you're tall I would expect you to struggle with kiddie seats in the middle row of a Defender - you'll need the front seats pretty far forward to make space.

And the Defender doesn't have ISOFIX either. Mind you,not sure if the Jeep does either. Anyone know?

[bigblock]

Lefty Guns said:

If you're tall I would expect you to struggle with kiddie seats in the middle row of a Defender - you'll need the front seats pretty far forward to make space.

And the Defender doesn't have ISOFIX either. Mind you,not sure if the Jeep does either. Anyone know?

Yes they do have Isofix in the newer models.
Interesting that the topic of the Wrangler Unlimited should come up. I have been seriously considering one of these for a few weeks now. They seem like fun and appear to be pretty good value second hand compared with the new price. If anybody has any first hand experience of owning one I would be very interested in what they have to say, good or bad.

[Bill]

Lefty Guns said:

If you're tall I would expect you to struggle with kiddie seats in the middle row of a Defender - you'll need the front seats pretty far forward to make space.

A good, if moot, point, you can't fit them side by side anyway

[Lefty Guns]

Ah yes and you can't put child seats on an inward-facing seat in the back either.

Could always have a child seat in the fron seat and the two outer middle-row seats...? Another adult can ride in the back...

[300bhp/ton]

bigblock said:

Lefty Guns said:

If you're tall I would expect you to struggle with kiddie seats in the middle row of a Defender - you'll need the front seats pretty far forward to make space.

And the Defender doesn't have ISOFIX either. Mind you,not sure if the Jeep does either. Anyone know?

Yes they do have Isofix in the newer models.
Interesting that the topic of the Wrangler Unlimited should come up. I have been seriously considering one of these for a few weeks now. They seem like fun and appear to be pretty good value second hand compared with the new price. If anybody has any first hand experience of owning one I would be very interested in what they have to say, good or bad.

I don’t have any ownership experience but I have driven both the 3 door and 5 door on and off road.
 
To compare, I’ve currently got a modded Disco 1 Tdi, but I’ve owed a Defender 90 and Range Rover in the past, while my parents have had a couple of P38a Range Rovers, my uncle has a Disco II Td5 and my godfather a Disco 3 TDV6. All of which I’ve driven.
 
Overall I was very impressed with the Wrangler. It was easy to get in and comfortable. I was surprised at how much space there was in the Unlimited and how big the boot area was. Certainly very comparable to a D110 but much more modern feeling inside.
 
Off road despite having a 116” wheelbase and running on all terrains it made a mockery of the course I drove and went over an axle crosser on tick over 1st no problem which I know would most likely have stopped my modified Discovery 1 unless I was driving like a loon. It really showed up how good the traction systems are (although I admit a Defender with traction control would probably have been ok too).
 
It also felt more nimble than the Discovery off road.
 
On road much the same, despite the live axles I thought it went very well. The auto box was smooth and willing, it’d shoot up to 90mph easy. Some reviewers say the engine is harsh, didn’t see it myself, although I admit you can hear it, but at motorway speeds holding a conversation or listing to the radio would be no bother. It also seemed to handle well. You could throw it about and body control was good and it didn’t feel like it leaned too much either. I’d certainly have no reservations about throwing one about on a country B road and I’m confident that I would come out smiling.
 
The only thing to remember is they aren’t full time four wheel drive. So in the wet pulling out of junctions it is easy to light up the tyres, although in a sadistic sort of way it’s actually rather fun. If its slippery out (snow) you can run it in high range 4wd.
 
In short on the road a JK 2.8CRD Wrangler will run rings around my 200Tdi Discovery in terms of speed, ride, handling, noise, stopping and so on.
 
Steering feel isn’t like it is in a Lotus Elise, but if you are used to 4x4’s you know why and you know what to expect.
 
Interior wise, well I liked it, but it is grey and a lot of plastic. It doesn’t look particularly cheap and tacky as some might expect. It was solid, felt good and seemed well screwed together. I’d say about midpoint between a Defender and Disco 3 interior, although IMO the Disco 3 interior isn’t exactly nice or plush looking either. My only real criticism is the door cards mark easily. So a few scratches were evident despite these being new vehicles. But it’s not enough IMO to put anyone off buying one.
 
The windscreen feels narrow and slit like, but outward visibility is actually very good and in many ways heightens the whole experience. But again this is quite a kin to a Defender.
 
Reward visibility is ok, although having the spare back there does limit it a bit, but at least on par with most over 4x4’s.
 
The rear tailgate opens as a side swing lower half door and the top half (glass) as a lift up hatch. It works ok once you get used to it, but is different to most other 4x4’s. The door is heavy though and doesn’t have a door stay, this is often criticised and I can understand why, although again I don’t think it’s a show stopper. While on this, it’s worth noting none of the doors have door stays but all are fairly light. And there is a reason they don’t, which IMO is very cool indeed
 
Sadly when I drove these it was wet outside, very wet. So I didn’t get to take the roof off. However on the flip side I though it fairly quite with no squeaks or rattles and fairly low wind noise. And I didn’t see any side of leaks.
 
There has been some talk in the US of leaks, it doesn’t seem to be all that common, but in heavy rain it seems they can leak a bit and allow water to drip onto the inside of the door. Again for me this wouldn’t be a show stopper as every Land Rover I’ve ever encounter leaks so I’m fairly used to it, lol
 
 
Since driving the Wrangler JK I’ve also driven a new 2.4 TDCi Land Rover Defender 90, it was nice but in simple conclusion everything the Defender did, the Wrangler did better.
 
Simple facts are compared to a new Defender:
 
2.8 litres compared to 2.4 litres. So more power and torque.
Better mpg
Cheaper (new and used)
Better specced
Automatic transmission
Faster
Stronger axles and drivetrain
As good or better on road, certainly more comfortable
Just as capable off road
Better built
Better corrosion resistance
 
 
And then there’s features that pretty much no other 4x4 can compete with these days, such as the removable roof, removable doors, fold down windscreen and removable footmats/carpets with floor drain holes to make it easier to wash out.
 
I suspect most owners will not even remove the roof, personally I’m the sort of person who would and the doors and given the chance would fold the windscreen down too, so these features really appeal to me.
 
 
Compared to a Disco 3.
 
Well if I’m honest I REALLY like the Disco 3. And on road it is certainly more car like. It feels much more like a big go-kart that you can simply chuck about, and despite statistically not being any quicker it does feel more lively than the Wrangler.
 
But I’m not sure these are all good points. Personally I like 4x4’s to be, well 4x4’s and feel like it. The Disco 3 may feel more car like but part of me says, well buy a car then.
 
Off road, well the Disco 3 is supremely capable off road due to its electronic gadgetry, although I don’t believe it would really get anywhere the Wrangler couldn’t, in fact I’d be inclined to have a bet on the opposite. But the downers here are its size. Yes on a Land Rover experience day were you are in large open areas (or wide cleared tracks so despite the trees there is actually plenty of room). It is huge, its wider, taller, longer and heavier than a Wrangler Unlimited. You are also more isolated and sit further inside the vehicle making it harder to see the wheels and obstacles. If you off road it, sooner or later you will bump it IMO and it probably won’t be cheap to fix. It also has big low plastic bumpers and side skirts, all vulnerable off road.
 
So capable but IMO nowhere near as rugged and durable in the rough as a Defender or Wrangler.
 
Another good thing here with the Wrangler is aftermarket parts. As with the Defender there is a huge range of off road products, so more under body protection, body protection, lift kits, wheels, bumpers and so are all available and without costing stupid amounts.
 
For the Disco 3 there is much less choice in aftermarket parts. I’m sure this will change with time but as it’s of very different construction I’m not sure what will be available and for what sort of money.
 
 
Residuals wise I think the Jeep is fairing well. Ok they’ve taken quite a hit compared to their RRP but prices have seem to have stabilised. And looking at older Wrangler models they all seem to hold their money fairly well, even a 1993 YJ (leaf sprung variant) will set you back £2.5-3.5k for a nice example with the right engine.
 
The Disco 3 by comparison I would say if fairing worse as they cost more new but can be had for less used now. Also historically Discovery’s have not retained their value compared to Defenders. A Disco 1 can be had for £600-800 today and DII prices are continuing to drop.
 
Defender residuals are very good. Even a 1980’s 90 seems to still be worth a reasonable sum of money these days. This is one area where the Defender still trumps the Wrangler.
 
My biggest complaint with the Wrangler actually has nothing to do with the vehicle and is Jeep UK themselves and the dealers. Sadly they appear to be total rubbish in my experience with a total lack of care for the customers and little to no knowledge of the products they are meant to be selling.
 
I also think Jeep shoot themselves in the foot with the model specs they offer in the UK. Sadly can’t do much about this and thankfully there are independent 4x4 specialists who I’m sure are more than capable of looking after the Wrangler once out of warranty. And being as they are not over complicated vehicles it makes this much easier and makes much of the regular maintenance even possible to be done at home on your driveway.
 
 
Sorry I can’t offer any insight into owning one. All I can do is recommend you drive one if you haven’t already and maybe have a look over at the Jeep forums (www.jeepforum.com/forum/) and see what they say about the vehicle.
 
I will be perfectly honest, that despite me being a total Landy nutcase (currently have two...) if I had the money I’d buy a Wrangler JK tomorrow over anything Land Rover currently produces.
 
Hope this helps
 

[Bill]

300bhp/ton said:

Residuals wise I think the Jeep is fairing well. Ok they’ve taken quite a hit compared to their RRP but prices have seem to have stabilised.

That's not helped by a circa £6k discount on new ones at the dealer. Prices start at £13k!

[bigblock]

300bhp/ton said:

A lot of very interesting things. 

Thankyou for a very interesting and informative post, I really appreciate the time you have taken to anwser my question and pass on your experiences of the Wrangler unlimited, cheers.

Like you I am attracted to the Unlimited because it has four doors and its ability to go alfresco, doors, roof and windscreen which is pretty unique in the four door 4x4 class.

I think Jeep is pretty under rated in the UK and I have to confess until recently it was not very high on my wish list. However given its value for money and fun factor I am now seriously interested.

I am just about to replace my Cayenne 4.5 S which i have done a pretty good job of wrecking over the last 5 years after 112,000 miles and a fair bit of off roading. It is actualy pretty capable off road apart from a habit of bursting its air suspension and tyres for some reason. Not that the tyres last much longer on the road, approx 10k miles per set. Anyway I was going to buy a used Cayenne Turbo but for around the same price I can buy a nearly new Jeep Commander 5.7 Hemi(7 seats) AND a Wrangler Unlimited for a bit of fun. By having two capable and modern off roaders I will be able to part with my trusty G Wagon which is getting a bit long in the tooth and which my wife refuses to drive refering to it as the tractor.

Appologies for being off topic and highjacking Bills thread although I had already expressed an opinion that an auto was my prefered option for off road.

[PhillipM]

The obvious solution is to get your chequebook out and buy a 6-speed Sadev with paddleshift, sorted.

[pugwash4x4]

bigblock said:

I am just about to replace my Cayenne 4.5 S which i have done a pretty good job of wrecking over the last 5 years after 112,000 miles and a fair bit of off roading. It is actualy pretty capable off road apart from a habit of bursting its air suspension and tyres for some reason. Not that the tyres last much longer on the road, approx 10k miles per set. Anyway I was going to buy a used Cayenne Turbo but for around the same price I can buy a nearly new Jeep Commander 5.7 Hemi(7 seats) AND a Wrangler Unlimited for a bit of fun. By having two capable and modern off roaders I will be able to part with my trusty G Wagon which is getting a bit long in the tooth and which my wife refuses to drive refering to it as the tractor.

Buy a better G Wagon- a G55 or similar- she won't think that's a tractor, and they are SO much cooler than a Porker or a Jeep

[Bill]

bigblock said:

Appologies for being off topic and highjacking Bills thread although I had already expressed an opinion that an auto was my prefered option for off road.

No worries, it's all interesting stuff and it's moved me to go and have a look. Unfortunately, although I did like it and there's a chance I could fit the sprogs in, the boot isn't that big and there's no way to fit a roofrack. Also SWMBO is keen on a 7 seater so I'd have my work cut out convincing her it's a goer.