1k budget for a 4x4
Discussion
Afraid I don't know much about the Vitara. I did drive a Grand Vitara a few years back which I have to say I was very impressed with, but this was only on the road.
What I would say is I think the vehicle to get depends on what you want to use it for.
If its just going down a fairly gentle lane or on to a grass field, then its a very different requirement to towing or more serious off road work.
Traction is everything off road. This is generally achieved by on of two ways.
1. Suspension flex and articulation
2. Traction control and diff lockers
1. The aim is to keep as many wheels in contact with the ground as much as possible. An open differential will essentially spin power away when a wheel is off the ground, so keeping all the tyres on the mud is important.
Live axles tend to be much better at this, largely due to when one wheel is lifted it also pushes down on the other wheel. Combine this with long suspension travel and suitable springs and such a vehicle will be very capable off road. It is this reason that Land Rover's and Jeeps are so good and capable in stock trim.
IRS/IFS setups generally don't have as much suspension travel and they lack that all important ability to push down the opposite wheel on the axle.
The new Disco 3 anf Range Rover Sport are the only independent suspension vehicle's that achieve similar ability to live axles off road, but they use additional air bags that inflate and push the opposite wheel down when the other is lifted. Thus giving them very good flex and articulation.
2. This is not to say all IRS/IFS 4x4's are rubbish off road, but they do need a bit of help. By their nature and suspension type they will more often have a wheel or two in the air. In order to stop the open diffs just spinning all the power away on the raised wheel, traction control and diff lockers can be used.
Down side is, very few vehicles come with diff lockers as standard and if misused can cause lots of problems. Traction control systems can be very affective, but not all, or even most soft roaders have traction control.
In my own personal experience I have driven a Frontera 2.2 Sport fairly extensively that my mother owned for a couple of years. It had IFS (independent front suspension) and no traction control. She then upgraded to a Land Rover Freelander 1.8i with traction control.
Despite not having low range on the Freelander, it was far, far better off road than the Frontera. The Frontera would easily lift a wheel and become "cross axled" and site there spinning diagonally opposite wheels. With the traction control on the Freelander it didn't matter if it lifted a wheel as it would sort it out.
Driving the same off road trails in a Range Rover (live axle) made an even bigger mockery of the Frontera.
This isn't to knock some off roaders, just to give you an insight.
In regard to the Vitara, does it have live axles or independent suspension? I think this might make a difference depending on your use.
As an example, here is my Discovery on an RTV even trial:
See how the front passenger wheel is at full droop, while the rear passenger wheel is under almost full compression. If you could see the other side of the vehicle you'd see the front drivers wheel would also be under compression.
In this instance an independent suspension 4x4 would most likely have a wheel or two in the air, if you have traction control it'll probably be ok, it might rock about more, but you'll keep going. Without traction control, such an obstacle would be far more of a challenge in an IRS/IFS vehicle and would require a potentially more dangerous and aggressive driving style to get it through.
If you don't think you'll encounter such terrain then it really doesn't matter.
But my point in saying all this, is I personally would have thought a Jimny with it's live axles would be a better off road vehicle than a Vitara.
On a budget for off roading I personally would be looking at these vehicles:
Jimny - small, nimble and lightwieght with live axles and coil suspension.
Classic Range Rover/Discovery - live axles coil suspension, very capable suspension setup in stock trim.
Jeep Cherokee (XJ) - live axles, coil front, leaf rear. Very capable, although lower ground clearance than a Range Rover makes it slightly less capable in stock trim.
Jeep Wrangler (YJ - one with square headlights) - live axles, leaf suspension, small and nimble, as per Cherokee limited ground clearance in stock trim compared to a Land Rover.
Land Rover Series III - live axles, leaf suspension. Rugged and capable.
I'm sure there are others, and with the right mods and driving styles many vehicles can be very capable off road. Such as the Toyota's and Mitsubishi's, although I'm not sure how these fair price wise. I like the Toyota Hi-Lux pickup and the Hilux Surf, although most Surf's have IFS.
As your budget isn't huge I suspect that somewhere you'll have to make a compromise.
If a Series Landy still appeals I'd have a look around the web such as Ebay, Autotrader and such. And in Land Rover magazines such as Land Rover Monthly, Land Rover World and Land Rover Owner.
Local specialists are also good places to look or ask at your local Land Rover Club - (should be able to find one through the ALRC http://www.alrc.co.uk/ )
Or if you see a Landy parked in someone's garden stop and ask if its for sale. A £1000 should get you a fairly ok Series III in my opinion. Ok it may be a bit tatty and have a few dents, but look past that. They are rugged work horses. And if they do need welding, it's not really an issue. Land Rover's use a ladder chassis. These can easily be repaired or even replaced. So a small amount of welding isn't really an issue and a local mechanic should be able to do it for next to nothing.
The body work is all pretty much aluminium, so these survive well. Footwells rust, but again its a cheap and easy fix. And due to construction, there are no "sills" to weld up as you get on a unibody car.
Down sides to a Series are they are slow, like a drink, no PAS and will be bumpy. But they are huge fun and very capable. If you want to modernise it, there are lots of cheap easy options from turbo diesels to V8's.
Disco's and Range Rover's are of similar ilk to the Series Land Rover, just bigger, more comfy and with coil suspension and more powerful engines. The extra bulk makes them more prone to body damage off road, but on road they are far more civilised and comfortable. Personally I'd be tempted to look for a 200Tdi Discovery or V8 of the same year. They had the earlier (nicer) interior and the chassis on these years seem to be fairly solid. Some bodywork is aluminium and some steel. Rear floor and foot wells rust, but are all fixable at sensible money. My own Discovery is of 1991 200Tdi vintage.
The 300Tdi ones will be newer, but I seem to recall Land Rover using a different grade of steel for the chassis and I've seen more needing welding.
Hope this helps a bit
What I would say is I think the vehicle to get depends on what you want to use it for.
If its just going down a fairly gentle lane or on to a grass field, then its a very different requirement to towing or more serious off road work.
Traction is everything off road. This is generally achieved by on of two ways.
1. Suspension flex and articulation
2. Traction control and diff lockers
1. The aim is to keep as many wheels in contact with the ground as much as possible. An open differential will essentially spin power away when a wheel is off the ground, so keeping all the tyres on the mud is important.
Live axles tend to be much better at this, largely due to when one wheel is lifted it also pushes down on the other wheel. Combine this with long suspension travel and suitable springs and such a vehicle will be very capable off road. It is this reason that Land Rover's and Jeeps are so good and capable in stock trim.
IRS/IFS setups generally don't have as much suspension travel and they lack that all important ability to push down the opposite wheel on the axle.
The new Disco 3 anf Range Rover Sport are the only independent suspension vehicle's that achieve similar ability to live axles off road, but they use additional air bags that inflate and push the opposite wheel down when the other is lifted. Thus giving them very good flex and articulation.
2. This is not to say all IRS/IFS 4x4's are rubbish off road, but they do need a bit of help. By their nature and suspension type they will more often have a wheel or two in the air. In order to stop the open diffs just spinning all the power away on the raised wheel, traction control and diff lockers can be used.
Down side is, very few vehicles come with diff lockers as standard and if misused can cause lots of problems. Traction control systems can be very affective, but not all, or even most soft roaders have traction control.
In my own personal experience I have driven a Frontera 2.2 Sport fairly extensively that my mother owned for a couple of years. It had IFS (independent front suspension) and no traction control. She then upgraded to a Land Rover Freelander 1.8i with traction control.
Despite not having low range on the Freelander, it was far, far better off road than the Frontera. The Frontera would easily lift a wheel and become "cross axled" and site there spinning diagonally opposite wheels. With the traction control on the Freelander it didn't matter if it lifted a wheel as it would sort it out.
Driving the same off road trails in a Range Rover (live axle) made an even bigger mockery of the Frontera.
This isn't to knock some off roaders, just to give you an insight.
In regard to the Vitara, does it have live axles or independent suspension? I think this might make a difference depending on your use.
As an example, here is my Discovery on an RTV even trial:
See how the front passenger wheel is at full droop, while the rear passenger wheel is under almost full compression. If you could see the other side of the vehicle you'd see the front drivers wheel would also be under compression.
In this instance an independent suspension 4x4 would most likely have a wheel or two in the air, if you have traction control it'll probably be ok, it might rock about more, but you'll keep going. Without traction control, such an obstacle would be far more of a challenge in an IRS/IFS vehicle and would require a potentially more dangerous and aggressive driving style to get it through.
If you don't think you'll encounter such terrain then it really doesn't matter.
But my point in saying all this, is I personally would have thought a Jimny with it's live axles would be a better off road vehicle than a Vitara.
On a budget for off roading I personally would be looking at these vehicles:
Jimny - small, nimble and lightwieght with live axles and coil suspension.
Classic Range Rover/Discovery - live axles coil suspension, very capable suspension setup in stock trim.
Jeep Cherokee (XJ) - live axles, coil front, leaf rear. Very capable, although lower ground clearance than a Range Rover makes it slightly less capable in stock trim.
Jeep Wrangler (YJ - one with square headlights) - live axles, leaf suspension, small and nimble, as per Cherokee limited ground clearance in stock trim compared to a Land Rover.
Land Rover Series III - live axles, leaf suspension. Rugged and capable.
I'm sure there are others, and with the right mods and driving styles many vehicles can be very capable off road. Such as the Toyota's and Mitsubishi's, although I'm not sure how these fair price wise. I like the Toyota Hi-Lux pickup and the Hilux Surf, although most Surf's have IFS.
As your budget isn't huge I suspect that somewhere you'll have to make a compromise.
If a Series Landy still appeals I'd have a look around the web such as Ebay, Autotrader and such. And in Land Rover magazines such as Land Rover Monthly, Land Rover World and Land Rover Owner.
Local specialists are also good places to look or ask at your local Land Rover Club - (should be able to find one through the ALRC http://www.alrc.co.uk/ )
Or if you see a Landy parked in someone's garden stop and ask if its for sale. A £1000 should get you a fairly ok Series III in my opinion. Ok it may be a bit tatty and have a few dents, but look past that. They are rugged work horses. And if they do need welding, it's not really an issue. Land Rover's use a ladder chassis. These can easily be repaired or even replaced. So a small amount of welding isn't really an issue and a local mechanic should be able to do it for next to nothing.
The body work is all pretty much aluminium, so these survive well. Footwells rust, but again its a cheap and easy fix. And due to construction, there are no "sills" to weld up as you get on a unibody car.
Down sides to a Series are they are slow, like a drink, no PAS and will be bumpy. But they are huge fun and very capable. If you want to modernise it, there are lots of cheap easy options from turbo diesels to V8's.
Disco's and Range Rover's are of similar ilk to the Series Land Rover, just bigger, more comfy and with coil suspension and more powerful engines. The extra bulk makes them more prone to body damage off road, but on road they are far more civilised and comfortable. Personally I'd be tempted to look for a 200Tdi Discovery or V8 of the same year. They had the earlier (nicer) interior and the chassis on these years seem to be fairly solid. Some bodywork is aluminium and some steel. Rear floor and foot wells rust, but are all fixable at sensible money. My own Discovery is of 1991 200Tdi vintage.
The 300Tdi ones will be newer, but I seem to recall Land Rover using a different grade of steel for the chassis and I've seen more needing welding.
Hope this helps a bit
V_cirellio said:
Rum Runner said:
No Very good offroad, cheap run, tough.
Best bet as said is a very late Vitara 2000 / 2001 you will get a low mileage good condition vehicle probably only pottered around town for 1K.
Have a good look on the net and you will see.
I lived in the Caribbean for many years and on the roads out there it one of the few cars that last and can be fixed easy. Landies don't survive out there not on those roads.
I also had a early shape Terios for 4 months which also was much better than expected considering the house was not do able in a normal vehicle.
I work on a beach a lot in the summer towing boats as well and we used to use a SJ which was very good and now have a old Landie 110 crewcab which is ok but had its fair share of issues (Gearbox etc).
I have still a MK1 Vitara just sold a Grand Vitara and have new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 2.8 . The Vitara is excellent and I have owned this one since 2004
That must have been absalutely fantastic to live in the Caribbean, very jealous.Best bet as said is a very late Vitara 2000 / 2001 you will get a low mileage good condition vehicle probably only pottered around town for 1K.
Have a good look on the net and you will see.
I lived in the Caribbean for many years and on the roads out there it one of the few cars that last and can be fixed easy. Landies don't survive out there not on those roads.
I also had a early shape Terios for 4 months which also was much better than expected considering the house was not do able in a normal vehicle.
I work on a beach a lot in the summer towing boats as well and we used to use a SJ which was very good and now have a old Landie 110 crewcab which is ok but had its fair share of issues (Gearbox etc).
I have still a MK1 Vitara just sold a Grand Vitara and have new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 2.8 . The Vitara is excellent and I have owned this one since 2004
Edited by Rum Runner on Monday 4th January 23:13
I have been looking at Vitara's today and the model which seems to come up a lot is the 'fat boy'. Is this just cosmetic changes and wider wheels? Or does it has suspension modifications as well? The one thing that is holding me back from going out and just buying a 4x4 is I really do not want the hasstle of buying one and then the diff breaks or there is a problem with the 4 wheel drive system. So what is a good test to make sure that everything is working perfectly?
Thanks again chaps, I don't mean to ask a lot of questions but I truely am a novice with 4x4's
Check the free wheeling hubs turn to Lock/Unlock (some will have autohubs). Drive it in a straight line if on tarmac in High or Low 4x4 if you try any tight corners in 4 wheel mode you will get transmission wind up.
It should be quiet in 4 wheel drive, no unusual noises. It will be a small amount noisier than in 2 wheel .You can put it in 4 wheel mode and drop the front wheel on to some grass and see if they both spin to make sure the front hubs are locking properly.You will get more transmission noise than a standard car anyway due to the drive train whether in 2 or 4 wheel drive
A late 4u2 http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1324144.htm
Early 4u2 http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1373638.htm
Edited by Rum Runner on Tuesday 5th January 14:41
Been snow wrestling on tarmac today in my New Wrangler. Quite impressed I have to say.
(Same they don't do the new Rubicon in the U.K with front and rear diff lock and the sway bar unlocks in low ratio and ultra low ration box as standard.)
Brake lock diffs on mine seem to work though anyway.
(Same they don't do the new Rubicon in the U.K with front and rear diff lock and the sway bar unlocks in low ratio and ultra low ration box as standard.)
Brake lock diffs on mine seem to work though anyway.
Well I won't quote that 300bhp. That was some very useful information there, thankyou very much. It has given me something to think about.
As for the terrain that I would like to tackle, a friend of mine with a Land Rover attends quite a lot of these 4x4 off road days at quarries etc so I would like to tag along in my own 4x4. Also a bit of green laning as I live in a very good area (apparently) for off roading.
Now my other car which was on finance is going next week I will have some extra money spare, which I will more than likely put towards my 4x4 fund. As much as I want a Land Rover, I think I will wait a while to get used to off roading first in a smaller (probally a suzuki) and cheaper to fix off roader.
I will bare that in mind for when I test drive a 4x4. It doesn't sound too tricky.
Thankyou very much again. You have been a great help chaps
As for the terrain that I would like to tackle, a friend of mine with a Land Rover attends quite a lot of these 4x4 off road days at quarries etc so I would like to tag along in my own 4x4. Also a bit of green laning as I live in a very good area (apparently) for off roading.
Now my other car which was on finance is going next week I will have some extra money spare, which I will more than likely put towards my 4x4 fund. As much as I want a Land Rover, I think I will wait a while to get used to off roading first in a smaller (probally a suzuki) and cheaper to fix off roader.
I will bare that in mind for when I test drive a 4x4. It doesn't sound too tricky.
Thankyou very much again. You have been a great help chaps
Rum Runner said:
Been snow wrestling on tarmac today in my New Wrangler. Quite impressed I have to say.
(Same they don't do the new Rubicon in the U.K with front and rear diff lock and the sway bar unlocks in low ratio and ultra low ration box as standard.)
Brake lock diffs on mine seem to work though anyway.
Actually the Rubicon was available and often the only variant road tested when they first launched the JK over here. But it's only available with the 3.8 V6 in auto and no air con. Chrysler were adamant the model would only account for around 1% of total Wrangler sales so told me there would never be a diesel variant, despite a LHD one being available in the rest of Europe. You then find out that Chrysler in there wisdom only imported (i.e. built) 19 RHD Rubicon's, all pre-sold months before launch. But with only 19 available it was never going to sell in the hundreds. I wonder if they had made 2000 would they still have sold out.(Same they don't do the new Rubicon in the U.K with front and rear diff lock and the sway bar unlocks in low ratio and ultra low ration box as standard.)
Brake lock diffs on mine seem to work though anyway.
Have to say Jeep UK are the biggest reason I haven't bought a new Wrangler. Vehicle great, probably the best 4x4 you can buy - the company utter crap.
P.S.
If you want lockers and such, they are available from the Mopar website. These are genuine parts and if your dealer fits them they shouldn't affect your warranty.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 6th January 09:00
300bhp/ton
Yep not to bothered about locker for what I do, though would have liked the slippy diff at only $295 in the US.Bought the car pre reg so can't be fussy especailly at the price which was not far off half the price a new 110.
I have bought quite a lot of Mopar upgrades for it from the Jeep dealer, so far they have been great, but they do not service it !.
Yep not to bothered about locker for what I do, though would have liked the slippy diff at only $295 in the US.Bought the car pre reg so can't be fussy especailly at the price which was not far off half the price a new 110.
I have bought quite a lot of Mopar upgrades for it from the Jeep dealer, so far they have been great, but they do not service it !.
Just putting in a good word for the Pajero.
I've run a MK2 2.8 for 5 years as our main car and a MK1 2.5 for the 5 years before that. Amazingly reliable and mechanically simple with excellent Owners Club support www.pocuk.com There's a thriving off road section where the virtues of these cars is extolled nightly.
About half your budget could buy you a decent MK1 and the add-on bits seem quite cheap secondhand.
Always wanted a Range Rover but the build quality and complexity has put me off once and for all!
My son fancied trying off roading which resulted in us finding an Isuzu Mu.
Cost us the value of the 2.8 TDI engine and manual box but the car was much too good to scrap and after a couple of outings it seems that a winch and lift kit are first on the cards.
I've run a MK2 2.8 for 5 years as our main car and a MK1 2.5 for the 5 years before that. Amazingly reliable and mechanically simple with excellent Owners Club support www.pocuk.com There's a thriving off road section where the virtues of these cars is extolled nightly.
About half your budget could buy you a decent MK1 and the add-on bits seem quite cheap secondhand.
Always wanted a Range Rover but the build quality and complexity has put me off once and for all!
My son fancied trying off roading which resulted in us finding an Isuzu Mu.
Cost us the value of the 2.8 TDI engine and manual box but the car was much too good to scrap and after a couple of outings it seems that a winch and lift kit are first on the cards.
MattMoore said:
I've been following this thread with great interest, as I'm looking for the same as the OP.
300hp, in your view out of a rr or series lr, which would you say is the better prospect?
I would like toi be able to repair and modify easily.
Thanks
I think it depends and is a personal choice.300hp, in your view out of a rr or series lr, which would you say is the better prospect?
I would like toi be able to repair and modify easily.
Thanks
An 88" Series II, IIa or III has the advantage of being short, with short overhangs and is fairly narrow. This means that off road it is easy to get about and avoid hitting things like trees. The boxy shape also makes it very easy to see the corners of the vehicle, again a huge advantage when off road.
Downside is stock engines are either a ~60hp 2.25 na diesel or a 72bhp 2.25 na petrol. Both fairly heavy on juice. Teens for the petrol and low 20's for the diesel. They also only have 4 speed gearboxes and leaf suspension. So the suspension is bumpy and they won't be overly sporty on the road. No PAS can be a problem for some people too.
In terms of repairs and maintenance the Series is very good. Chassis's are known to rust, but to be fair even the youngest will be nearly 30 years old by now. The good news is you can buy repair section or even an entire new chassis for around £900. This means many Series Land Rover's are actually very rust free and should be good for at least another 30+years.
Body wise the Series motors are generally very good. They are made from an aluminium alloy. Back in the day when these were being built this metal was quite think and very good quality. I've never seen a series Landy with aluminium corrosion. Later Defender's used cheap thinner body panels and even a 3 year old one can suffer issues in this respect.
Only other area's that rust are the foot wells and front bulkhead. The footwells are an easy fix and as they aren't structural they won't cause it to fail an MOT, even if they are rusty with holes in, all that happens is you get wet feet when fording, lol
The bulk head can be more of an issue, but its usually only on the upper corners and you can get repair panels for these too.
In terms of modifications it's huge. Simple things can be to put modern Defender doors with windup windows on. You can buy roof lining and trim kits to make them as nice inside as a Defender also.
Mechanically the Series is pretty sound. Rover axles are know to be weak and the Series gearbox isn't great either. But with stock engines and sensible tyres it shouldn't really be a problem.
Short wheelbase, sensible tyres, and good ground clearance mean even a stock Series will go most places you are ever likely to take a 4x4.
However the later TDI turbo diesel engines bolt straight in, as does the Rover V8 (with a little work). You can swap in the 5 speed gearbox and even the later axles can be made to fit.
This is my Series III I bought for £200. I'm currently swapping in a new engine though.
But such a vehicle as this is rugged, though and usable. It'll tow most things, can carry heavy weights in the back. Yet being only short makes it easy to drive and park.
Amazingly a Discovery isn't actually all that different from a Series Landy. The chassis is almost the same, just 100" instead of 88". The TDI engine is actually a development of the old petrol/diesel ones. The axles use the same diffs and are just a development of the Series ones and are a bit wider.
So engine and transmission aside the only real different is the body, interior and suspension.
All Discovery's are coil sprung instead of leaf. In reality this means it'll ride smoother and handle better on road, while give more flex off road. The interior makes for a more civilised place to be if you plan to use it more often or for longer journeys. And the bigger body means it's better at seating people facing forward. The body is also wider so gives more elbow room.
Downsides are as a bigger, longer, taller, wider vehicle they are far more cumbersome off road. Technically they are just as capable in terms of drivetrain, they do have worse approach and departure angles. But its the bulk that hinders more than anything, partly because you can't see the corners as well, you sit further from the side window so harder to lean out while driving and simply physics. Which means in a bigger vehicle you are more likely to take a knock than in a smaller one.
As I have done in my Disco:
Rust also seems to arguably be more of an issue on a 1996 Disco than it is on a 1976 Series for some reason. Most Disco's will need the rear boot floor replacing, although again its not structural. Fron foot wells can suffer and the roof is steel and know to rust if the paint has been damaged. Chassis's on early Disco's aren't too bad, but 300TDI ones rust more.
In reality I can't really answer your question as you need to decide what would be better for you.
Series - small, rugged, capable, noisy, bumpy, cramped but practical. Better for shorter journeys and limited motorway work.
Disco/RR - still capable, more prone to body damage off road, more comfy, faster, more refined, nicer to drive, easier to drive, harder to park, newer.
Price wise. A Series shouldn't lose money, keep it MOT'd and it'll always be worth what you paid for it or more. With the right mods they can be made just as modern as a Disco and will be worth more than a stock one.
Disco prices have slid. I bought mine 5+ years ago for £1300. I've spent a fair bit on mods and upkeep and I suspect it's currently worth £800-£1200 depending on what mods I leave on it should I sell it.
Where the Disco is nice, is it will seat 4 easy with luggage and you can use it all year round. That said I do actually want a smaller 4x4 for off road work due to the reasons sighted above.
Hope this helps
Here are some pics of what my Disco has had to put with to give you idea of what they can do:
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