L200 hubs problem
Discussion
Advice needed chaps:
I have a 1995 L200 (K24) Single Cab.
Got a bit of a problem that keeps happening.
As I am driving along I can occasionally hear a light scraping sound - as if coming from the front nearside wheel - not a massive trauma type noise just smooth metal on metal if you see what I mean.
However a few times it has developed into a really lound vibrating grinding.This has happened on two separate occasions, both after using 4WD.
I had driven it in 4x4 up a snowy field the other day, the chap I had it from told me all about the "reverse-to-unlock" hubs and showed me how when I bought it although he did point out it sometimes needs a few goes to get it to do it. So I assumed this might be what was happening when it first did the weird noise so attempted to reverse and lock/unlock (?) the hubs. (all this time the 4x4 light is off - I am in 2wd).
The noise is a sudden juddering, wobbling, grinding noise - loud - felt like it was coming from the wheels, felt a lot like driving over rumble strips (edge of motorway) in a normal car.
The other day it lasted maybe 20 seconds the first time - I drove through it. Did it again 10 miles later for 45 seconds, then again 5 miles later for a couple of minutes.
Each time I was able to keep driving but it was like I was driving on cogs instead of tyres for the duration.
Each time it went "normal" afterward.
>> Can someone please clearly confirm what I need to do and how (and what happens) with the reverse-to-lock thing? Is it possible I have just done this badly wrong?
>> Can anyone help me diagnose the issue beyond this?
>> Can anyone help me find manual (or replacement auto) hubs - IF that is the problem - for a bargain price? Parts seem hard to find.
Any help appreciated...
Just a thought, but check the condition of your propshaft universal joints by wiggling the prop with your hand whilst looking for play. Could be one of them has knackered bearings and the yokes are clonking around.
If that doesn't provide any clues, I would put some axle stands under the front and turn the wheels by hand (hubs locked but 4WD disengaged) whilst watching and listening for nastiness. To test the diff, see what happens if you prevent one wheel from turning and spin the other - and so on.
As a last resort, if you're sure the noises are coming from that corner then I would dismantle the hub and have a little look inside - see if bits of bearing come pouring out. (ETA: Whilst you're in there, pull the driveshaft out and inspect the joint).
If that doesn't provide any clues, I would put some axle stands under the front and turn the wheels by hand (hubs locked but 4WD disengaged) whilst watching and listening for nastiness. To test the diff, see what happens if you prevent one wheel from turning and spin the other - and so on.
As a last resort, if you're sure the noises are coming from that corner then I would dismantle the hub and have a little look inside - see if bits of bearing come pouring out. (ETA: Whilst you're in there, pull the driveshaft out and inspect the joint).
Edited by Eggman on Friday 15th January 11:44
Head on over to here...
http://www.l200.org.uk/
...£15 one-off payment to join the club and more information than a fully stacked information stand! Discounts available from suppliers and a wealth of knowledge about places to get stuff at good prices. Good bunch of blokes to.
http://www.l200.org.uk/
...£15 one-off payment to join the club and more information than a fully stacked information stand! Discounts available from suppliers and a wealth of knowledge about places to get stuff at good prices. Good bunch of blokes to.
Edited by Sixpackpert on Friday 15th January 12:09
The freewheeling hubs just contain a splined arrangement to disengage the wheel from the end of the axle driveshaft so you're not rotating it, the diff and the front propshaft as you drive along.
I've not owned a set of automatic hubs (just manual ones ages ago), but I would suspect that the splines in those are going to be helical to make them engage and there'll be some kind of detent spring to stop them disengaging when they shouldn't. If one of them wasn't quite disengaging properly I suppose it might 'twang' the end of the driveshaft and make a bit of a noise as it jolts the diff round - a likely cause of that might be the hub being full of filthy dried up grease that's been in there since it left the factory. I would have a look inside, being very careful to note how everything comes apart, but not until I'd put the axle on stands and given it a good prod about and listened carefully to any noises. (By using a screwdriver as a listening stick you might even be able to hear the hubs disengaging as you rotate the wheels by hand - if one sounds a bit different to the other, the noises might give you an idea what's up)
I've not owned a set of automatic hubs (just manual ones ages ago), but I would suspect that the splines in those are going to be helical to make them engage and there'll be some kind of detent spring to stop them disengaging when they shouldn't. If one of them wasn't quite disengaging properly I suppose it might 'twang' the end of the driveshaft and make a bit of a noise as it jolts the diff round - a likely cause of that might be the hub being full of filthy dried up grease that's been in there since it left the factory. I would have a look inside, being very careful to note how everything comes apart, but not until I'd put the axle on stands and given it a good prod about and listened carefully to any noises. (By using a screwdriver as a listening stick you might even be able to hear the hubs disengaging as you rotate the wheels by hand - if one sounds a bit different to the other, the noises might give you an idea what's up)
Google found me some instructions on how to service a Toyota 4Runner's hubs ( here) and it turns out that they're a fair bit more complicated inside than I thought they might be - cam operated clutches and so on. Assuming yours is similar, I would be tempted to avoid completely disassembling it apart from as a last resort.
I also found a simple 'how to diagnose' thread here which supports my idea that they'd jam up with crusty old grease. Whilst the thread suggests soaking the hub in ATF, I would be more tempted to leave it in a tub of diesel overnight as I've had very good results unseizing things that way in the past. If I was doing it, I'd stick a big blob of clean grease in the splined hole when reassembling and let it find its own way into the gubbins.
I also found a simple 'how to diagnose' thread here which supports my idea that they'd jam up with crusty old grease. Whilst the thread suggests soaking the hub in ATF, I would be more tempted to leave it in a tub of diesel overnight as I've had very good results unseizing things that way in the past. If I was doing it, I'd stick a big blob of clean grease in the splined hole when reassembling and let it find its own way into the gubbins.
Eggman said:
I also found a simple 'how to diagnose' thread here which supports my idea that they'd jam up with crusty old grease. Whilst the thread suggests soaking the hub in ATF, I would be more tempted to leave it in a tub of diesel overnight as I've had very good results unseizing things that way in the past. If I was doing it, I'd stick a big blob of clean grease in the splined hole when reassembling and let it find its own way into the gubbins.
Brilliant help Eggman - appreciated.I unscrewed the cap on the hubs today and had a peek inside.
They look a bit like this:
(I will take a pic if I can)
The left hand side was oily and greasy inside, this is where the noise >appeared< to come from...but I know that can be deceptive. The right hand side was even more gunked up, but still liquidy... just a lot of it. Neither had any obvious signs of shredding.
That doesn't look quite so grim inside as I thought it would. Bet it would like a nice clean, though. (Thinking about it, a possible reason why that other thread recommended soaking them in ATF could be because of the clutches inside them. Auto boxes have clutches too, so I wonder if ATF is kind to them. No idea.)
It'll probably still drive OK without the hubs, but I wouldn't recommend running about like that in case you contaminate the grease around the wheel bearings - presumably you've just got the driveshaft splines sticking out of a greasy hole each side now. If the bearings run in oil that would be even worse news!
It'll probably still drive OK without the hubs, but I wouldn't recommend running about like that in case you contaminate the grease around the wheel bearings - presumably you've just got the driveshaft splines sticking out of a greasy hole each side now. If the bearings run in oil that would be even worse news!
Sounds like tempting fate to me. If I did that, it would turn out that there was a vital shim hiding in the goo around the driveshaft. The shim would disappear, and it would turn out that there are a dozen part numbers for it and you have dismantle the whole axle and measure things with a micrometer to find out which you need. Then the dealer would inform me that they have to be ordered from Japan which takes 6 weeks and they're 30 quid each, and in the meantime my MOT would expire. Life's like that.
More help needed (sorry).
I took the wheels off today and checked how they rotated, how the driveshaft and 1/2 driveshaft rotated and also how the hubs were moving. Here are the results:
_Left wheel_ (where the most noise seems to come from) > moves freely without the driveshaft moving. Some slight noise spun at full lock but not very much. Rotating the driveshaft does not move the wheel.
No amount of spinning the wheel either way would lock the driveshaft in it seems. The hub itself with the wheel off also spins freely.
Also, when the wheel was still on and at full tightness - I found a little play in it when pulled hard.
Behind the left wheel:
When the screw-top to the flange was removed it was less greasy and gunky inside (even being the noisy wheel):
_Right wheel_ > moves under more force and ALWAYS moves the driveshaft and half shaft. No amount of turning would "unlock it" and the shaft itself is only just turnable, and brings the wheel with it.
No amount of spinning altered this.
Behind the right wheel:
When the screw-top to the flange was removed it was VERY gunked and caked in thick black grease (even though this is the less noisy wheel
So it looks like they are not in the same state.......(???)
Also - I attempted to take off the hubs, but having battled the flange loose with an 8mm allen key and removed those bolts - the thing doesn't want to come off.
Is there an retaining clip or another bolt or something else I need to do?
This is an AWFUL pic taken in the dark and the rain but it shows the flange with all bolts out and still no luck getting it off:
I am assuming I have to get that off as I cannot get to the larger bolts behind it otherwise??
My plan is to remove them and soak them in diesel, whilst testing the truck in 2WD without them on to see if it stops the noise.
Any advice definitely appreciated.
I took the wheels off today and checked how they rotated, how the driveshaft and 1/2 driveshaft rotated and also how the hubs were moving. Here are the results:
_Left wheel_ (where the most noise seems to come from) > moves freely without the driveshaft moving. Some slight noise spun at full lock but not very much. Rotating the driveshaft does not move the wheel.
No amount of spinning the wheel either way would lock the driveshaft in it seems. The hub itself with the wheel off also spins freely.
Also, when the wheel was still on and at full tightness - I found a little play in it when pulled hard.
Behind the left wheel:
When the screw-top to the flange was removed it was less greasy and gunky inside (even being the noisy wheel):
_Right wheel_ > moves under more force and ALWAYS moves the driveshaft and half shaft. No amount of turning would "unlock it" and the shaft itself is only just turnable, and brings the wheel with it.
No amount of spinning altered this.
Behind the right wheel:
When the screw-top to the flange was removed it was VERY gunked and caked in thick black grease (even though this is the less noisy wheel
So it looks like they are not in the same state.......(???)
Also - I attempted to take off the hubs, but having battled the flange loose with an 8mm allen key and removed those bolts - the thing doesn't want to come off.
Is there an retaining clip or another bolt or something else I need to do?
This is an AWFUL pic taken in the dark and the rain but it shows the flange with all bolts out and still no luck getting it off:
I am assuming I have to get that off as I cannot get to the larger bolts behind it otherwise??
My plan is to remove them and soak them in diesel, whilst testing the truck in 2WD without them on to see if it stops the noise.
Any advice definitely appreciated.
Edited by Gorvid on Saturday 16th January 17:36
Picture 4 is pretty much what I was expecting to see, and it sounds a bit like that hub has jammed in the 'locked' position.
Anyway, returning to picture 2: is that the edge of a circlip I can see around the driveshaft? There's probably going to be either a circlip or a snap ring keeping it in engagement with the hub. Probably best to clean all that gunk out of there so you can see what's going on - a squirt of carb cleaner will do the job, failing that brake cleaner or WD40.
(Additionally, I have a dim recollection that some hubs are held on with a red nylon cable tie type thing, the end of which is just visible in a little nook hidden somewhere on the hub. Google didn't turn anything up about that; perhaps you will make a more determined search and find it. SWMBO has just informed me that I am going to the supermarket).
Anyway, returning to picture 2: is that the edge of a circlip I can see around the driveshaft? There's probably going to be either a circlip or a snap ring keeping it in engagement with the hub. Probably best to clean all that gunk out of there so you can see what's going on - a squirt of carb cleaner will do the job, failing that brake cleaner or WD40.
(Additionally, I have a dim recollection that some hubs are held on with a red nylon cable tie type thing, the end of which is just visible in a little nook hidden somewhere on the hub. Google didn't turn anything up about that; perhaps you will make a more determined search and find it. SWMBO has just informed me that I am going to the supermarket).
Edited by Eggman on Saturday 16th January 18:54
Edited by Eggman on Saturday 16th January 20:07
Ok....
I got the gunk out and sure enough there was a cir-clip each side with some thin washers holding it all together.
Little tricky buggers to get off too, but got them off in the end and slid the flange off the shaft.
The left one:
Seems to be stuck with the inner ring proud of the unit, absolutely full of gunge and filth, when pressed it does pop neatly back up as if it is supposed to (?)
The right one:
Seems to be stuck in the "down" position - lifts slightly when levered but is totally gunked up and seized by the looks of it.
Both of those were wiped off with WD40 and are now soaking in (red) diesel for 24 hours.
Another problem >>>
After sliding them off the shaft I was greeted with a filthy mess but full access to the next set of bolts.
After cleaning up the mess I was left with this:
However, ALL the bolts are now loosened (via torque wrench) and yet none of them will undo - they are just spinning, and the plate is just sitting in place. No movement - not even when tapped with a hammer....???
What's the secret?
AND - is there a point to taking this next bit off to soak and clean whatever is under it?
AND - can I put the wheels on and drive it in this condition*?
- the truck, not me - I'm fine.
I haz instructionz: YouTube
...quite interesting to see how it all comes apart. Given the condition of the freewheeling hubs, this might be a good opportunity to repack your wheel bearings with grease. I think you run the risk of contaminating them if you drive around without the hubs on, but a little test run (in the dry) probably wouldn't hurt.
...quite interesting to see how it all comes apart. Given the condition of the freewheeling hubs, this might be a good opportunity to repack your wheel bearings with grease. I think you run the risk of contaminating them if you drive around without the hubs on, but a little test run (in the dry) probably wouldn't hurt.
Eggman said:
I haz instructionz: YouTube
...quite interesting to see how it all comes apart. Given the condition of the freewheeling hubs, this might be a good opportunity to repack your wheel bearings with grease. I think you run the risk of contaminating them if you drive around without the hubs on, but a little test run (in the dry) probably wouldn't hurt.
Brilliant!...quite interesting to see how it all comes apart. Given the condition of the freewheeling hubs, this might be a good opportunity to repack your wheel bearings with grease. I think you run the risk of contaminating them if you drive around without the hubs on, but a little test run (in the dry) probably wouldn't hurt.
Thank you - now I can see that I don't really need to go further until I want to change the discs.
I wish I could get the other retaining plate out though - ONE BLOODY SCREW! Because then I could clean and regrease and check the outboard bearings both sides at least.
Edited by Gorvid on Sunday 17th January 14:27
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