C1 24 Hour Race this weekend - Rockingham
Discussion
geeks said:
Not single reason I don't think. One make racing always induces a bit more contact, when you don't have differences in cars characteristics to exploit passing becomes trickier. There were alot of people out there in their first endurance race, there were alot of people out there in their first ever race. Alot of cars don't seem to understand that in a 24hr race defending every car for all you're worth isn't a great idea, mainly as for the most part you have no idea what position you or they are in. It was raining at the start and continued into the dark, it didn't really stop until around midnight from memory but you then had a period of at least 3-4 hours of a slippery greasy track.
As you can see from the above I am not sure there is just one reason for it, however I think for most it was the lack of investigation that was the issue, however if you aren't going up to the organisers and or the clerk with a gopro reporting it, then they aren't going to look at it. In the dark the Marshalls aren't able to spot stuff so easily (they are the main source of track behaviour reports to the clerk's office), I was overtaken under double waved yellows right in front of the marshalls post down at the first hairpin, but it was dark and they didn't spot it, I'm not mad, I made it back through on them after the SC cleared easily enough (much slower car) but the point is in the dark even when it's right in front of them it's tough to see!
I also see that the club ackowledged that standards could have been better and are looking at mandatory cameras in the cars.As you can see from the above I am not sure there is just one reason for it, however I think for most it was the lack of investigation that was the issue, however if you aren't going up to the organisers and or the clerk with a gopro reporting it, then they aren't going to look at it. In the dark the Marshalls aren't able to spot stuff so easily (they are the main source of track behaviour reports to the clerk's office), I was overtaken under double waved yellows right in front of the marshalls post down at the first hairpin, but it was dark and they didn't spot it, I'm not mad, I made it back through on them after the SC cleared easily enough (much slower car) but the point is in the dark even when it's right in front of them it's tough to see!
One thing I do note, probably controversially is that our car suffered very little damage (a scuff on the front wing) but we were out of contention early on with mechanical problems and none of our drivers were defending every place or trying to pass everything in sight.
I encountered quite a lot of cars that I was clearly faster than who, despite us being between 35 and 14 laps down for almost the duration of the race, were determined to defend every corner like we were in a 20 minute sprint. As geeks says, when you have 68bhp and identical cars, overtaking needs to be planned and requires common senseand a little give and take from the person being overtaken, which wasn't always forthcoming.
Towards the end our drivers were waving the lead cars through where it was safe to do so - what's the point in holding up a car that you have absolutley no chance of catching and in the process encouraging them to chance it up the inside somewhere dodgy, potentially ruining both your races?
So I think a fair proportion (though by no-means all) of the damage was self-inflicted and down to lack of experience, either in racing itself or specifically in endurance racing by drivers who've only ever done sprint races and drove as if they still were. That's where a good team manager and a team of drivers willing to do as they're told pays huge dividends as it's as much about consistency, planning and strategy as it is individual driver performance.
Altrezia said:
Gotcha, thanks chaps. Does sound like great fun.
If slower cars stopped defending, and instead followed the faster cars they may learn something..
Indeed. I'd like to think Andy Priaulx learned a few things following me........;)If slower cars stopped defending, and instead followed the faster cars they may learn something..
And having said all the above, it was huge fun (as was Spa last year and we were out of contention relatively early on there too) and I'd recommend it to anyone.
Mark Benson said:
geeks said:
Not single reason I don't think. One make racing always induces a bit more contact, when you don't have differences in cars characteristics to exploit passing becomes trickier. There were alot of people out there in their first endurance race, there were alot of people out there in their first ever race. Alot of cars don't seem to understand that in a 24hr race defending every car for all you're worth isn't a great idea, mainly as for the most part you have no idea what position you or they are in. It was raining at the start and continued into the dark, it didn't really stop until around midnight from memory but you then had a period of at least 3-4 hours of a slippery greasy track.
As you can see from the above I am not sure there is just one reason for it, however I think for most it was the lack of investigation that was the issue, however if you aren't going up to the organisers and or the clerk with a gopro reporting it, then they aren't going to look at it. In the dark the Marshalls aren't able to spot stuff so easily (they are the main source of track behaviour reports to the clerk's office), I was overtaken under double waved yellows right in front of the marshalls post down at the first hairpin, but it was dark and they didn't spot it, I'm not mad, I made it back through on them after the SC cleared easily enough (much slower car) but the point is in the dark even when it's right in front of them it's tough to see!
I also see that the club ackowledged that standards could have been better and are looking at mandatory cameras in the cars.As you can see from the above I am not sure there is just one reason for it, however I think for most it was the lack of investigation that was the issue, however if you aren't going up to the organisers and or the clerk with a gopro reporting it, then they aren't going to look at it. In the dark the Marshalls aren't able to spot stuff so easily (they are the main source of track behaviour reports to the clerk's office), I was overtaken under double waved yellows right in front of the marshalls post down at the first hairpin, but it was dark and they didn't spot it, I'm not mad, I made it back through on them after the SC cleared easily enough (much slower car) but the point is in the dark even when it's right in front of them it's tough to see!
One thing I do note, probably controversially is that our car suffered very little damage (a scuff on the front wing) but we were out of contention early on with mechanical problems and none of our drivers were defending every place or trying to pass everything in sight.
I encountered quite a lot of cars that I was clearly faster than who, despite us being between 35 and 14 laps down for almost the duration of the race, were determined to defend every corner like we were in a 20 minute sprint. As geeks says, when you have 68bhp and identical cars, overtaking needs to be planned and requires common senseand a little give and take from the person being overtaken, which wasn't always forthcoming.
Towards the end our drivers were waving the lead cars through where it was safe to do so - what's the point in holding up a car that you have absolutley no chance of catching and in the process encouraging them to chance it up the inside somewhere dodgy, potentially ruining both your races?
So I think a fair proportion (though by no-means all) of the damage was self-inflicted and down to lack of experience, either in racing itself or specifically in endurance racing by drivers who've only ever done sprint races and drove as if they still were. That's where a good team manager and a team of drivers willing to do as they're told pays huge dividends as it's as much about consistency, planning and strategy as it is individual driver performance.
Mark Benson said:
I also see that the club ackowledged that standards could have been better and are looking at mandatory cameras in the cars.
I encountered quite a lot of cars that I was clearly faster than who, despite us being between 35 and 14 laps down for almost the duration of the race, were determined to defend every corner like we were in a 20 minute sprint. As geeks says, when you have 68bhp and identical cars, overtaking needs to be planned and requires common senseand a little give and take from the person being overtaken, which wasn't always forthcoming.
Towards the end our drivers were waving the lead cars through where it was safe to do so - what's the point in holding up a car that you have absolutley no chance of catching and in the process encouraging them to chance it up the inside somewhere dodgy, potentially ruining both your races?
So I think a fair proportion (though by no-means all) of the damage was self-inflicted and down to lack of experience, either in racing itself or specifically in endurance racing by drivers who've only ever done sprint races and drove as if they still were. That's where a good team manager and a team of drivers willing to do as they're told pays huge dividends as it's as much about consistency, planning and strategy as it is individual driver performance.
Most of the contact problems did not seem to be from those dicing with each other, it seemed to be with cars being lapped. And yet I don't think that the contact issues were all the fault of drivers defending places when they did not need to. I actually think that some of the contact and spins I witnessed (and contact I felt - 2 sideswipes by quicker cars) was caused by over ambitious moves by quick amateurs that were just not on, particularly at the chicane for example. I certainly worked very hard to give people room to the detriment of my own lap (sometimes difficult when my left mirror had been knocked off) and yet I was still barged aside on 2 occasions, and witnessed one of the cars that barged me later spin twice within the space of a few laps. Overdriving. That very same car then wrote us off late in the race by pulling off a ridiculous move that put one of our other drivers into the barriers.I encountered quite a lot of cars that I was clearly faster than who, despite us being between 35 and 14 laps down for almost the duration of the race, were determined to defend every corner like we were in a 20 minute sprint. As geeks says, when you have 68bhp and identical cars, overtaking needs to be planned and requires common senseand a little give and take from the person being overtaken, which wasn't always forthcoming.
Towards the end our drivers were waving the lead cars through where it was safe to do so - what's the point in holding up a car that you have absolutley no chance of catching and in the process encouraging them to chance it up the inside somewhere dodgy, potentially ruining both your races?
So I think a fair proportion (though by no-means all) of the damage was self-inflicted and down to lack of experience, either in racing itself or specifically in endurance racing by drivers who've only ever done sprint races and drove as if they still were. That's where a good team manager and a team of drivers willing to do as they're told pays huge dividends as it's as much about consistency, planning and strategy as it is individual driver performance.
Quick drivers also need to realize that if they cant get past "right now", they will inevitably get past very shortly, and need to be patient in an endurance race. That is the nature of endurance racing. Quite simply, planning the over takes and common sense, as well as a little bit of give and take from the person trying to overtake is just as important from the quick drivers as it is from the slower drivers, if not more so. I am not sure there was enough of that from some of those quicker drivers.
I had absolutely no problem with the very experienced and the professionals but I think some of the quick but less experienced/ less patient drivers need to realize that chancing it up the inside somewhere dodgy may ruin both participants race.
Edited by andy97 on Thursday 24th May 14:27
andy97 said:
Mark Benson said:
I also see that the club ackowledged that standards could have been better and are looking at mandatory cameras in the cars.
I encountered quite a lot of cars that I was clearly faster than who, despite us being between 35 and 14 laps down for almost the duration of the race, were determined to defend every corner like we were in a 20 minute sprint. As geeks says, when you have 68bhp and identical cars, overtaking needs to be planned and requires common senseand a little give and take from the person being overtaken, which wasn't always forthcoming.
Towards the end our drivers were waving the lead cars through where it was safe to do so - what's the point in holding up a car that you have absolutley no chance of catching and in the process encouraging them to chance it up the inside somewhere dodgy, potentially ruining both your races?
So I think a fair proportion (though by no-means all) of the damage was self-inflicted and down to lack of experience, either in racing itself or specifically in endurance racing by drivers who've only ever done sprint races and drove as if they still were. That's where a good team manager and a team of drivers willing to do as they're told pays huge dividends as it's as much about consistency, planning and strategy as it is individual driver performance.
Most of the contact problems did not seem to be from those dicing with each other, it seemed to be with cars being lapped. And yet I don't think that the contact issues were all the fault of drivers defending places when they did not need to. I actually think that some of the contact and spins I witnessed (and contact I felt - 2 sideswipes by quicker cars) was caused by over ambitious moves by quick amateurs that were just not on, particularly at the chicane for example. I certainly worked very hard to give people room to the detriment of my own lap (sometimes difficult when my left mirror had been knocked off) and yet I was still barged aside on 2 occasions, and witnessed one of the cars that barged me later spin twice within the space of a few laps. Overdriving. That very same car then wrote us off late in the race by pulling off a ridiculous move that put one of our other drivers into the barriers.I encountered quite a lot of cars that I was clearly faster than who, despite us being between 35 and 14 laps down for almost the duration of the race, were determined to defend every corner like we were in a 20 minute sprint. As geeks says, when you have 68bhp and identical cars, overtaking needs to be planned and requires common senseand a little give and take from the person being overtaken, which wasn't always forthcoming.
Towards the end our drivers were waving the lead cars through where it was safe to do so - what's the point in holding up a car that you have absolutley no chance of catching and in the process encouraging them to chance it up the inside somewhere dodgy, potentially ruining both your races?
So I think a fair proportion (though by no-means all) of the damage was self-inflicted and down to lack of experience, either in racing itself or specifically in endurance racing by drivers who've only ever done sprint races and drove as if they still were. That's where a good team manager and a team of drivers willing to do as they're told pays huge dividends as it's as much about consistency, planning and strategy as it is individual driver performance.
Quick drivers also need to realize that if they cant get past "right now", they will inevitably get past very shortly, and need to be patient in an endurance race. That is the nature of endurance racing. Quite simply, planning the over takes and common sense, as well as a little bit of give and take from the person trying to overtake is just as important from the quick drivers as it is from the slower drivers, if not more so. I am not sure there was enough of that from some of those quicker drivers.
I had absolutely no problem with the very experienced and the professionals but I think some of the quick but less experienced/ less patient drivers need to realize that chancing it up the inside somewhere dodgy may ruin both participants race.
Edited by andy97 on Thursday 24th May 14:27
king dangerous, also the chicane, overtaking there is as valid a place as any other, if I am on on the inside and out brake you into the left I get you may still be alongside when we turn right but we also have to go left again, I will probably still be there, I had numerous drivers try and run me out of room on the chicane, I saw it coming everytime and either backed out or toughed it out as it was too late to do anything else. When the leaders came by with me I just hoped out the way and then tucked in, by doing this early on I found half a second a lap just by adjusting my line into two corners it also ended not costing either me or them time (a net gain for me as it goes). I also question why a racer with your experience is not heading to the organisers or the clerk with gopro (other cameras are available
) footage insisting things are investigated!?andy97 said:
And yet I don't think that the contact issues were all the fault of drivers defending places when they did not need to. I actually think that some of the contact and spins I witnessed (and contact I felt - 2 sideswipes by quicker cars) was caused by over ambitious moves by quick amateurs that were just not on, particularly at the chicane for example.
...
Quick drivers also need to realize that if they cant get past "right now", they will inevitably get past very shortly, and need to be patient in an endurance race. That is the nature of endurance racing. Quite simply, planning the over takes and common sense, as well as a little bit of give and take from the person trying to overtake is just as important from the quick drivers as it is from the slower drivers, if not more so. I am not sure there was enough of that from some of those quicker drivers.
I agree Andy, and I didn't mean to single out those being overtaken - although most of the time I was so quick myself I didn't encounter many 'quicker' drivers ...
Quick drivers also need to realize that if they cant get past "right now", they will inevitably get past very shortly, and need to be patient in an endurance race. That is the nature of endurance racing. Quite simply, planning the over takes and common sense, as well as a little bit of give and take from the person trying to overtake is just as important from the quick drivers as it is from the slower drivers, if not more so. I am not sure there was enough of that from some of those quicker drivers.
Although at one point I had a car behind me who was no quicker, but was clearly 'on a mission' so I let him through then followed him for a while. When he ran a car onto the grass through pif paf by doing a massive drift into the side of them I backed off and let him go....
But as I say, the event was the first of it's kind and understandably involved a lot of sprint racers doing their first endurance event who, whether they were quicker or slower than average, weren't experienced enough to understand that consistency and survival are the keys to a succesful race and treating it like a sprint will only end up in panel damage and recriminations.
Edited by Mark Benson on Thursday 24th May 16:04
Geeks, I think you you will see that I actually said, "NOT ALL contact was the fault of the slower guys" and that "SOME of the contact was caused by poor overtaking" ie, there is no one size fits all, no one single reason for the issues experienced, and that some of the incidents were inevitably the fault of the slower cars over a 24 hour period. However, I was trying to redress the balance of those that were implying that the slower drivers were to blame throughout. They were not, and we were hit by the same car twice, and on the second ocassion he wrote us off; he also spun twice in the space of 20 mins causing 2 X safety car periods in the same 2 hour session that I drove in, and eventually finished in the top15. I'd suggest that he/ they were one of the quicker cars that probably should have taken more care on occasion.
What is clear is that there was too much contact and the club have recognised that.
What is clear is that there was too much contact and the club have recognised that.
SoftwareSorcerer said:
There were one or two cars with the odd remodelled offside front wing...
Pleased ours (2nd row, on the right) came out of it much better than most.
My car second row 2 in from the left no 374. Not my damage btw Pleased ours (2nd row, on the right) came out of it much better than most.
.Thought I might do Snetterton as I am out in the Firenza there that weekend as well. Anyone else?Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff