Getting *out* of motorsport

[coppice]

Palmer isn't a demigod by my estimation , and nor is he in that of anybody I have met. but MSV have done, and are doing , an excellent job. I have been going to what are now MSV circuits since the late 60s and have no complaints . Oulton and Cadwell , which I know intimately , were tatty and run down until MSV acquired them ; both are now spotless and a vast improvement on the frequently litter strewn Croft . Catering is vastly improved , and having endured Silverstone's shambolic cafe in the Wing a couple of months ago, I know of what I speak (huge queues, crap food and ran out of bacon )

Donington was utterly on its arse - tragically so - and it is now recovering under MSV management .

I finds MSV 's customer care exemplary - a few years ago my mobility was very seriously impaired by a back problem and MSV's staff were extraordinarily helpful to me - unlike BARC , who were so fking useless it was probably actionable.

I have met JP once , very briefly and to say he was brisk was an understatement - but I judge him by his actions not by his renowned prickilness .

Nobody is forcing you to go, and I just wonder what halcyon past you have imagined for yourself ? I spend at least 20 days a year at race circuits , and 30 plus in last few years , but I do wonder how you have obtained such a jaundiced view when by your own admission , you don't even go to club races. Or Silverstone, Goodwood or (continues on page 27)

Edited by coppice on Tuesday 2nd July 19:16

[Jon39]

BertBert said:

Jon39 said:

There is much less of the cheque book professionalism, when compared to HSCC

Im not sure I recognise that really. What do you mean?
Bert

Think of the number of Mk1 Mini Cooper S cars racing at Goodwood.
I believe a full race Nick Swift engine and gearbox is rumoured to cost about £30,000, and some competitors even have a spare engine available.

In comparison, the Pre 1966 CTCRC cars are not even close to that league of performance, and one or two are even driven to and from each race meeting.

[chunder27]

As you say my old mate coppice, I have a jaundiced view, of racing when i knew no better, and meetings weren't so expensive that I on a low salary I needed about a third of it to go to meetings like Goodwood or Silverstone Classic, you might have that kind of money, I do not.

I grew out of watching circuit racing a long time ago, it is not for spectators, might fill you with happiness but the crowds are evidence you are in 0.1% minority. Fair play to you if you get something out of it.

I did not say Palmer was awful merely that I personally do not like him much, have met him on a professional and as a fan and I can't explain it, but I just don't like the man, we all have that surely? Some of his decisions in recent years are very disappointing and that stacks into my opinion.

I have never said he has not gone great things, he has and were it not for him UK circuits would be in a worse state. I sImply disagree with some of the things he has done regarding series, circuits and the like.

[ChevronB19]

Jon39 said:

ChevronB19 said:

I’m hacked off. In the 80’s people with D Types etc would stay at the circuit in a tent. Now it’s all 200k motor homes and paying a team to run you. I was introduced to motorsport by my dad, he ran in formula junior at the front end in the mid 80’s on a council technicians salary. Impossible now. A bit like what happened to stage rallying in the 80’s.

Have you considered the CTCRC series? Probably the closest to 'the old days' motor racing, in terms of costs and other aspects.
There is much less of the cheque book professionalism, when compared to HSCC, although this year, some HSCC cars have appeared. Not sure about their status, so they might have been guest entries, without being eligible for championship points.

Weirdly enough, we’ve had a load of CTCRC cars appear in HSCC (HRSR saloons) this year, cross pollination is great, met some fantastic people. I love club racing as it’s oeople helping each other out, my original point was a) the inevitable arms race, and b) people who have suddenly decided this is the ‘new Henley/Ascot’ etc, and do it despite not giving one toot about the cars and the heritage, it’s just the trendy thing to do.

Sorry, I’ve screwed up the quoting here, the last paragraph is from me, and the previous is (I think) from Jon

[ChevronB19]

coppice said:

Palmer isn't a demigod by my estimation , and nor is he in that of anybody I have met. but MSV have done, and are doing , an excellent job. I have been going to what are now MSV circuits since the late 60s and have no complaints . Oulton and Cadwell , which I know intimately , were tatty and run down until MSV acquired them ; both are now spotless and a vast improvement on the frequently litter strewn Croft . Catering is vastly improved , and having endured Silverstone's shambolic cafe in the Wing a couple of months ago, I know of what I speak (huge queues, crap food and ran out of bacon )

Donington was utterly on its arse - tragically so - and it is now recovering under MSV management .

I finds MSV 's customer care exemplary - a few years ago my mobility was very seriously impaired by a back problem and MSV's staff were extraordinarily helpful to me - unlike BARC , who were so fking useless it was probably actionable.

I have met JP once , very briefly and to say he was brisk was an understatement - but I judge him by his actions not by his renowned prickilness .

Nobody is forcing you to go, and I just wonder what halcyon past you have imagined for yourself ? I spend at least 20 days a year at race circuits , and 30 plus in last few years , but I do wonder how you have obtained such a jaundiced view when by your own admission , you don't even go to club races. Or Silverstone, Goodwood or (continues on page 27)

Edited by coppice on Tuesday 2nd July 19:16

I’ll have to defend Croft here, I was an instructor there for a while. It’s a wonderful circuit, and not unsurprisingly it’s the one I’m quickest at, but they’ve invested a massive amount of money in it, and spectator wise, it’s the best circuit in the country, with the one exception of Cadwell, so long as you get a space along Hall bends.

I’m a big fan of Croft as the only northern circuit. Malcolm Wilson recently bought Broughton Moor in Cumbria and has turned it into a test circuit. Trust me, if he got permission for racing ther it would be one of the best circuits in the world. I lived 1 mile away for years. It’s an ex MoD/US airforce base, elevation changes, the lot. The problem with northern circuits is for understandable reasons most racers live within a couple of hours of the main circuits. People would think we’re nuts for turning up at Snetterton or Brands having driven from Carlisle.

[BertBert]

Jon39 said:

Think of the number of Mk1 Mini Cooper S cars racing at Goodwood.
I believe a full race Nick Swift engine and gearbox is rumoured to cost about £30,000, and some competitors even have a spare engine available.

But that's not HSCC is it?

[coppice]

ChevronB19 said:

I’ll have to defend Croft here, I was an instructor there for a while. It’s a wonderful circuit, and not unsurprisingly it’s the one I’m quickest at, but they’ve invested a massive amount of money in it, and spectator wise, it’s the best circuit in the country, with the one exception of Cadwell, so long as you get a space along Hall bends.

I’m a big fan of Croft as the only northern circuit. Malcolm Wilson recently bought Broughton Moor in Cumbria and has turned it into a test circuit. Trust me, if he got permission for racing ther it would be one of the best circuits in the world. I lived 1 mile away for years. It’s an ex MoD/US airforce base, elevation changes, the lot. The problem with northern circuits is for understandable reasons most racers live within a couple of hours of the main circuits. People would think we’re nuts for turning up at Snetterton or Brands having driven from Carlisle.

Croft is a fine circuit, and on my doorstep , and I've been a regular for many years. As you say , viewing is very good -if not as good as when one could watch on the infield at Tower. It is great to drive too .

But it is far from perfect - the current circuit manager is a vast improvement on her predecessor but stuff that needs looking at is

-litter- in the no man's land between catch fencing and Armco is weeds and litter , ranging from the inevitable Red Bull can to stuff so old its pricetag is in shillings and pence . You won't find a fag end at an MSV circuit

- absurd numbers of 'security 'staff . Their main role seems to be wandering around aimlessly and being a PITA. As a former season ticket holder, and thus entitled to park trackside at the chicane , I lost count of the number of run ins I had with daft jobsworths who didn't know that, and tried to make me park outside . The experience of every other season ticket holder I know bears this out

- customer care - despite being a season ticket holder for years , not once has the circuit emailed me about coming attractions , let alone discount offers. When I found there had been one I missed out on last year I decided enough was enough , especially as so many meetings are poorly supported (not entirely the circuit's fault of course)

- catering - it is now just about mediocre ; it was previously an utter disgrace , if not a case for Environmental Health

- attention to detail- half the PA speakers are painfully loud , others are almost , or actually inaudible . And stuff like not stopping teams preventing access to track side on entry to Clervaux- it isn't a private viewing area and all it needs is a line painted on the ground to park behind . I suggested this to the last manager but one - he was going to do it but didn't do so before his allegedly unseemly exit.

- timing ; BARC (who run Croft of course) don't talk to BARC Yorkshire ; if they did, they wouldn't stage competing events at Harewood and Croft on the same weekend .

Edited by coppice on Wednesday 3rd July 07:09

[Jon39]

BertBert said:

Jon39 said:

Think of the number of Mk1 Mini Cooper S cars racing at Goodwood.
I believe a full race Nick Swift engine and gearbox is rumoured to cost about £30,000, and some competitors even have a spare engine available.

But that's not HSCC is it?

I did not know that.
Do the Goodwood Minis run to different Goodwood only rules?
I had assumed that HSCC specifications applied for the two annual Goodwood meetings.

There is a big difference between the performance of the front runner cars, in CTCRC and Goodwood, which of course translates into cost.

[BertBert]

Jon39 said:

I did not know that.
Do the Goodwood Minis run to different Goodwood only rules?
I had assumed that HSCC specifications applied for the two annual Goodwood meetings.

There is a big difference between the performance of the front runner cars, in CTCRC and Goodwood, which of course translates into cost.

I assume that Goodwood race meetings are organised by the GRRC and they have their own series rules. In terms of eligibility I would expect it to be stricter than equivalent HSCC rules, probably only allowing FIA papered cars for example. However the main difference will be in the prestige of the event. Goodwood, invite only for the rich, rare and famous. HSCC any old person with a suitable car and an entry fee can have a go.

Money plays a part in HSCC, but driver talent wins out. Some completely self run, some driver and friend run, some low rent teams and that's about it.

There are a few more prestigious HSCC events which will attract more money as you'd expect.

Just look at FF2000, won for the last 100 years by Andrew Park. He drives mostly a long way all night to get there, his dad helps out, he doesn't test and trounces pretty much everyone. There are 3 or so other drivers who can get close, but no big terms or mega budgets.

[anonymous-user]

BertBert said:

Jon39 said:

I did not know that.
Do the Goodwood Minis run to different Goodwood only rules?
I had assumed that HSCC specifications applied for the two annual Goodwood meetings.

There is a big difference between the performance of the front runner cars, in CTCRC and Goodwood, which of course translates into cost.

I assume that Goodwood race meetings are organised by the GRRC and they have their own series rules. In terms of eligibility I would expect it to be stricter than equivalent HSCC rules, probably only allowing FIA papered cars for example. However the main difference will be in the prestige of the event. Goodwood, invite only for the rich, rare and famous. HSCC any old person with a suitable car and an entry fee can have a go.

Money plays a part in HSCC, but driver talent wins out. Some completely self run, some driver and friend run, some low rent teams and that's about it.

There are a few more prestigious HSCC events which will attract more money as you'd expect.

Just look at FF2000, won for the last 100 years by Andrew Park. He drives mostly a long way all night to get there, his dad helps out, he doesn't test and trounces pretty much everyone. There are 3 or so other drivers who can get close, but no big terms or mega budgets.

I believe goodwood events are run by BARC, certainly the Members Meeting is. FIA, HTP or equivalents were necessary for all cars competing but scrutineering was no more rigorous than any other event, I had a friend in the Mini race this year who said it was a case of just entering as per any other race though I think he said it was at least double a regular BARC event which will put people off. He’s not rich or famous, he isn’t “invited”, he doesn’t bother the top ten, he’s just built up an FIA eligible Mini over time and now does the odd race each year, Silverstone Classic, Oulton Gold Cup etc.

[ChevronB19]

pablo said:

BertBert said:

Jon39 said:

I did not know that.
Do the Goodwood Minis run to different Goodwood only rules?
I had assumed that HSCC specifications applied for the two annual Goodwood meetings.

There is a big difference between the performance of the front runner cars, in CTCRC and Goodwood, which of course translates into cost.

I assume that Goodwood race meetings are organised by the GRRC and they have their own series rules. In terms of eligibility I would expect it to be stricter than equivalent HSCC rules, probably only allowing FIA papered cars for example. However the main difference will be in the prestige of the event. Goodwood, invite only for the rich, rare and famous. HSCC any old person with a suitable car and an entry fee can have a go.

Money plays a part in HSCC, but driver talent wins out. Some completely self run, some driver and friend run, some low rent teams and that's about it.

There are a few more prestigious HSCC events which will attract more money as you'd expect.

Just look at FF2000, won for the last 100 years by Andrew Park. He drives mostly a long way all night to get there, his dad helps out, he doesn't test and trounces pretty much everyone. There are 3 or so other drivers who can get close, but no big terms or mega budgets.

I believe goodwood events are run by BARC, certainly the Members Meeting is. FIA, HTP or equivalents were necessary for all cars competing but scrutineering was no more rigorous than any other event, I had a friend in the Mini race this year who said it was a case of just entering as per any other race though I think he said it was at least double a regular BARC event which will put people off. He’s not rich or famous, he isn’t “invited”, he doesn’t bother the top ten, he’s just built up an FIA eligible Mini over time and now does the odd race each year, Silverstone Classic, Oulton Gold Cup etc.

OP here. Surprised at that, we’ve been invited to the revival 5 times and the MM once (all in the same car, a 100e). We’re not rich, rare or famous (maybe rare as the only race 100e before about 2010). It’s certainly been the case of being invited, it’s definitely not like a normal race where entries open, everyone enters and it’s first come first served. Maybe the mini race was a bit different as a one off?

Edited by ChevronB19 on Wednesday 17th July 23:23

[languagetimothy]

I did couple,of seasons of formula Ford then later saloons (mk1 GTi) and apart from the cost and the odd crash (including a write off) I throughly enjoyed it. I do know it cost me a good relationship too, although she was very supportive and came to a lot of races in the longer term my money was going into that and not enough weekends and holidays and time with her. She was right.

However, the main reason I stopped is that at the end of one season I raced at castle coombe qualified about 5/6 typical. Over the winter I spent several grand on the car, suspension, engine some testing etc. Early next season went castle coombe, qualifying about 1.5 seconds quicker! That's quicker than last years pole!

Grid position 12th. That's enough, that was the start of 1992 season.

If I had enough money now? Don't know, I'd get fed up with the traveling for starters.

I play a lot of tennis now.

[Notwen]

I am not out of Motorsport, I do hold the romantic notion I will renew my race licence at some point, preferring the term resting racer. Occasionally taking up Safety Car duties, gets me to lead the odd race again...

Not everyone's cup of tea, but to keep involved in Motorsport I trained and volunteer as a Clerk of the Course. There is a surprising number of Clerks that have raced, while we all follow the same rules, I do like to think that having been raced, does give you a slightly different viewpoint in some situations.

Edited by Notwen on Thursday 29th August 15:47

[andrewcliffe]

Minis at Goodwood Revival run to FIA Appendix K regulations.

Minis in HSCC regs can either be run to App. K regs or to HSCC regs and run in different classes.

Goodwood, being an event with interest from all over the world means people spend a lot more time on attention to detail, makign sure the car is ready, possibly hiring some BTCC / British GT hotshot racer, means the costs are significantly higher than a clubbie meeting at Croft, Castle Combe or Snetterton.

[PTF]

I gave up in 2014 after 10 years of on/off racing when i could afford it.

Over that time the entry fees and testing fees crept up. And the paddock changed from being primarily towcars and trailers, to primarily team support and arrive n drive.

And some of the characters that used to be involved have drifted away.

I had a great season in 2012, but it was still stressful because as the season went on i was waiting for it to all go wrong (it didn't).

2014 brought the close monitoring of track limits, which led to some lecturing from clerks and plenty of heated debate regarding concrete kerbs vs painted kerbs, etc. I also ended up with some penalties that felt pretty harsh at the time. I came away from that season wondering why i was spending so much to do something that was making me stressed.

Since then i've really focused on things that i enjoy that cost very little. My fitness since 2014 has improved massively. I'm a fairly keen cyclist and have run a few half marathons, and i've also rediscovered my passion for swimming that i had as a kid.

My licence needs renewing before the end of 2019 otherwise i've got to go through the ARDS stuff once again if i ever want to go back, but i'm inclined to just let it lapse. The thought of the expense, the logistics, the time away from family and the stress of it all just doesn't attract me anymore