Hill climb engine modifications for Road Cars

Hill climb engine modifications for Road Cars

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Discussion

Eyebrows123

Original Poster:

6 posts

40 months

Sunday 18th October
quotequote all
Currently looking at setting up a car in the road going class to do hill climbs with.

Car in question is a Volvo 66. Ideally I really want to change the cylinder head of the engine to an improved one (Renault Gordini), it was a standard modification at the time, the modification is homologated however, the rules state:

"the cylinder block and cylinder head must remain in the original position and be externally identifiable as that fitted to the original model or specified option."

The engine in these cars is a renault engine, but the standard head doesn't flow as well as the one from the renault, i don't think it was available from the factory on the Volvo. There are several instances of it which are homologated though, i don't know but I could look and I wouldn't be surprised if there was an instance of one of the factory works cars having the head. Would any of these make it possible to install it and still be ok in the Road Cars class?

I'm just trying to avoid being forced into the Modified class as that's opening a large can of worms and I can quickly see budget going out of the window!

HustleRussell

18,578 posts

119 months

Sunday 18th October
quotequote all
It’s not going to be legal in class- the regs are quite explicit. An unmodified class is just that. This is why halo models and homologation specials enjoy such a premium.

Truckosaurus

7,847 posts

243 months

Monday 19th October
quotequote all
That seems a fairly minor mod, you see plenty of Minis running things like weber carbs that were never factory options (no idea if they were ever homologated).

In reality no-one would notice and you'd only have an issue if someone complained.

df76

2,656 posts

237 months

Monday 19th October
quotequote all
I'm fairly certain that no one would actually have a problem with it being used on a Volvo 66. I'm assuming that you can't modify the existing head to suit (you can actually make big changes in the Road Car class)??

Perhaps get a bit more detail about the homologation as well, that may tell a story. And might have been considered as an "option".

Eyebrows123

Original Poster:

6 posts

40 months

Monday 19th October
quotequote all
So, the head in question came from a renault gordini engine. The benefit of it is it is crossflow (so already its quite obvious that the carb and exhaust are suddenly on opposite sides!). The engine itself is a renault cleon fonte engine, these were fitted as standard to the DAF/VOLVO. It's just they only had the standard heads but the better head to fit is the head from a renault gordini (same engine, just performance tuned so a better flowing head). I don't think DAF/VOLVO offered them as a factory option.

What would you need as proof? I expect a sales brochure detailing available options?

If you look at the available homologattion papers on the fia website of homologated cars, almost all the DAF 66 and Volvo 66 have detailed the modification of the cylinder head change. But I'm guessing this gets me nowhere?

carl_w

6,485 posts

217 months

Tuesday 20th October
quotequote all
Eyebrows123 said:
Currently looking at setting up a car in the road going class to do hill climbs with.

Car in question is a Volvo 66. Ideally I really want to change the cylinder head of the engine to an improved one (Renault Gordini), it was a standard modification at the time, the modification is homologated however, the rules state:

"the cylinder block and cylinder head must remain in the original position and be externally identifiable as that fitted to the original model or specified option."
I can imagine that if you have a Volvo and when you open the bonnet it says "Renault" on the cylinder head that it would b e difficult to claim it was externally identifiable as that fitted to the original model or specified option.

df76

2,656 posts

237 months

Tuesday 20th October
quotequote all
Eyebrows123 said:
I don't think DAF/VOLVO offered them as a factory option.

What would you need as proof? I expect a sales brochure detailing available options?

If you look at the available homologattion papers on the fia website of homologated cars, almost all the DAF 66 and Volvo 66 have detailed the modification of the cylinder head change. But I'm guessing this gets me nowhere?
That's an accurate summary I think. You need to demonstrate that it was an option.

stevieturbo

15,084 posts

206 months

Tuesday 20th October
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I'd imagine most people looking at it...wouldn't have a clue it was not the original anyway.

mat205125

15,988 posts

172 months

Wednesday 28th October
quotequote all
Not within the black and white letter of the regulations, however the fact that you're asking and concerned about it's eligibility doesn't mean that it's outside of the spirit of the regs.

Many will contest that there is no such thing as "spirit of the regs", and that absolutely everything must be absolute and binary.

I'd say just do it, and if someone wants to object then let them, and if the swap of the cylinder head on your Volvo means you suddenly start kicking ass and claiming class wins, then fair play to you and godlike driving skills.


Galveston

581 posts

158 months

Wednesday 28th October
quotequote all
I'd look at this the other way - where's the satisfaction in competing using a car of dubious eligibility? If everyone else is using the standard cylinder head, use the standard cylinder head.

LordHaveMurci

10,385 posts

128 months

Wednesday 28th October
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When I competed in Std Roadgoing class I saw plenty of dodgier mods than that 😆

If it doesn’t give you an unfair advantage I very much doubt anybody will even care TBH.

DarkMatter

1,433 posts

190 months

Thursday 29th October
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
I'd say just do it, and if someone wants to object then let them
And then in the paddock the objector becomes the bad guy instead of the one bending the regulations. Very sporting.

df76

2,656 posts

237 months

Thursday 29th October
quotequote all
LordHaveMurci said:
When I competed in Std Roadgoing class I saw plenty of dodgier mods than that ??

If it doesn’t give you an unfair advantage I very much doubt anybody will even care TBH.
I'd agree with that. I competed at a few events in a standard class. At one there was another competitor that turned up in a full race spec Lotus Elan (on semi slicks etc). I pointed out that this may not quite meet the regs and the spirit of the class, but the organisers rolled their eyes and told me to protest if I wanted.

carl_w

6,485 posts

217 months

Thursday 29th October
quotequote all
This is one of the problems with the standard classes. It becomes the competitors' responsibility to police eligibility, and I for one don't want to spend the morning wandering round the paddock checking people's tyres and what's under the bonnet.

I was told at a recent event that they had no eligibility scrutineers so if I wanted to put in a protest I would have to pay the full National Court fee of £525.

TBH I'm thinking of going back to track days.

stevieturbo

15,084 posts

206 months

Thursday 29th October
quotequote all
Galveston said:
I'd look at this the other way - where's the satisfaction in competing using a car of dubious eligibility? If everyone else is using the standard cylinder head, use the standard cylinder head.
"Competing" ?

Many just want to use their cars, and couldn't care less about any competitive BS. They just want to take part.

How many other cars of that type do you think there are "competing"....or even in the UK as a whole, at all ?

Many of the MSA's rules do suck, and even after they changed their name, they still suck.

stevieturbo

15,084 posts

206 months

Thursday 29th October
quotequote all
LordHaveMurci said:
When I competed in Std Roadgoing class I saw plenty of dodgier mods than that ??

If it doesn’t give you an unfair advantage I very much doubt anybody will even care TBH.
Likewise, and I'd far rather see different cars out there taking part, of a good build quality etc....then maybe lesser modified cars of questionable quality, of which there are many

Galveston

581 posts

158 months

Thursday 29th October
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
"Competing" ?

Many just want to use their cars, and couldn't care less about any competitive BS. They just want to take part.

How many other cars of that type do you think there are "competing"....or even in the UK as a whole, at all ?

Many of the MSA's rules do suck, and even after they changed their name, they still suck.
For some reason I imagined a Volvo 66 owners club championship, but maybe I'd had too many glasses of wine when I read this thread the other day...

I look at this from slightly sheltered viewpoint of someone who competes in the "Standard Car" category in a completely bog-standard Clio 172 Cup. I can't be bothered modifying cars anymore, so SC suits me down to the ground. As people have mentioned above, it's fairly common for people to enter ineligible cars, sometimes by mistake (see a 2.5 litre Millington powered Mk2 Escort that entered the class for post-2000, <2000cc, standard road cars at Abingdon), sometimes deliberately (I was chatting to someone at Curborough the other week who thought it was fine to use non-standard wheels, and who'd removed the radio, speakers, rear wiper and probably a load of other stuff to save weight)...

Lots of us do want to "compete", so that sort of stuff is a bit annoying. The glaring errors are usually quickly resolved by the organisers, but the only response to the ones who cheat is just to beat them. As I said, it's much more satisfying winning when you're in one of the few eligible cars in the class.

stevieturbo

15,084 posts

206 months

Thursday 29th October
quotequote all
Galveston said:
For some reason I imagined a Volvo 66 owners club championship, but maybe I'd had too many glasses of wine when I read this thread the other day...

I look at this from slightly sheltered viewpoint of someone who competes in the "Standard Car" category in a completely bog-standard Clio 172 Cup. I can't be bothered modifying cars anymore, so SC suits me down to the ground. As people have mentioned above, it's fairly common for people to enter ineligible cars, sometimes by mistake (see a 2.5 litre Millington powered Mk2 Escort that entered the class for post-2000, <2000cc, standard road cars at Abingdon), sometimes deliberately (I was chatting to someone at Curborough the other week who thought it was fine to use non-standard wheels, and who'd removed the radio, speakers, rear wiper and probably a load of other stuff to save weight)...

Lots of us do want to "compete", so that sort of stuff is a bit annoying. The glaring errors are usually quickly resolved by the organisers, but the only response to the ones who cheat is just to beat them. As I said, it's much more satisfying winning when you're in one of the few eligible cars in the class.
Let's face it...how many Volvo 66's do you know for him to compete with ? Until this thread...I'd never even heard of one. And even after googling...pretty sure I've never seen one before.

For those who do want to compete in bog standard cars....fill your boots, everything is in place for you. Nothing he will ever do to his Volvo cylinder head will in any way whatsoever affect your car or your class. Or probably anyone's class.
But it may allow him to go out and have a bit of fun in his car, and perhaps some others might enjoy seeing the car take part.
In these difficult times, the more people that can be encouraged to take part the better, all to help the survival of such events.

I know from going to various events, it does get boring watching bog standard cars anyone can just buy and drive.
It's nice to see a good variety of stuff.

Mark A S

1,413 posts

147 months

Saturday 31st October
quotequote all
I would say that going by how the rules are written, then no, not strictly legal. However if you can prove homolgation etc etc you might have a case.

TBH though, no one is likely to bother you unless you start winning wink

Dave.S

4 posts

20 months

Wednesday 18th November
quotequote all
What has not been mentioned is that there are x2 roadgoing classes

Standard - No mods at all but limited to a max of 2000cc without forced induction (forced induction will add a penalty to your cc of 70% so you are limited to 1100cc) You are also have to use standard wheels and tyres. Tyres from list 1A only

Road Cars - In this class you are allowed a number of modifications including induction, exhaust & suspension (forced induction will add a penalty to your cc of 40% no max cc in these classes) Wheels are free and any tyres from list 1A and 1B
Different classes for different max cc and in some cases if you have 4wd you are in your own class.
A lot depends on which club/championship you want to enter. Often different venues have their own regulation of classes so worth checking it out especially if you want to compete against others for a championship.

Before any carrying out any mods read the Blue Book for rules and regs for the class you want to compete in, this is available on the MSUK web site, then look for your local club on their structure of their championship.

In many cases "Standard" and "Road Car" classes may be combined due to lack of numbers in that class, so yes you might have a "Standard" car competing against slightly modified "Series production" car.

At the end of the day you compete against yourself against the clock, if and when you get really good many decide to move class or get into single seaters. Like most motorsport it depends on your budget.



Edited by Dave.S on Wednesday 18th November 01:33