Where Have All The Racing Cars Gone?
Discussion
Oilchange said:
Someone else needs to make these type of tyres and charge £50 a corner.
If all the race cars turn up with non dunlop tyres, what are they going to do, disqualify all of them? No cars on the grid?
Clearly they have had their palms greased.
Someone else producing something similar would be great. Given someone like Julian Majzub, who is both owner of Blockley Tyres and a talented historic racer, I would have thought that they could easily produce a racing crossply tyre in sizes 10-15 inches for half the price Dunlop charges. It’s a shame no one has taken up the challenge, it’s not like the Dunlops are of exceeding quality - a race preparer I know has to send back >20% of the tyres he gets delivered because they’re that poor you can’t even balance them up once mounted to a rim. It speaks volumes that Dunlop accept them back for exchange with no quibbles… If all the race cars turn up with non dunlop tyres, what are they going to do, disqualify all of them? No cars on the grid?
Clearly they have had their palms greased.
Just look at the amount of these historic racers with tonnes of wheel weights clinging to the rim, and 99% of the time this will be on recently produced wheels. confucuis said:
Sort of the complete opposite of this thread but:
How come Escorts are so expensive when they're bloody everywhere!
As mentioned same with the 'Lotus' Cortinas, just have to look at what people are asking for used FIA Appendix-K spec cars. £100K+ for a bloody Cortina, not on your life.. people seem to want to pay it though judging by the amount you see up the sharp end of race grids! Not sure if it's a 'fast Ford' tax or if like sheep to a shepherd, the blinkered masses think they need a Cortina to win. Same goes for everything, even if you run something 'cheap' like a Mini, a Swiftune race engine apparently costs over £20k, and running at those stresses it'll probably need regular rebuilds. How come Escorts are so expensive when they're bloody everywhere!
But, it's the bar that's been set by the 'larger wallet than capability' crowd, so the rest have to follow suit or be left behind on the straights. I guess to people spending £80k+ to build a Mini, £100k+ to build a Cortina, £1k on a set of 4 tyres isn't the end of the world. Yes you'll always get costs spiralling, but I recall historic saloon car racing in the '80s, when people actually drove their cars to the circuit, 'prepared' it themselves by checking fluid levels and tightening the wheel nuts, then going out for a day's competition; grateful I got to experience these times, they were certainly better than whatever historic motorsport has turned in to now.
CKY said:
I recall historic saloon car racing in the '80s, when people actually drove their cars to the circuit, 'prepared' it themselves by checking fluid levels and tightening the wheel nuts, then going out for a day's competition; grateful I got to experience these times, they were certainly better than whatever historic motorsport has turned in to now.
Some of us still do that! We’re now at the back rather than the front though… There is certainly one mini driver (in a car he owned from new) who drives to the circuit etc. In HSCC road sports you used to (not sure if still the case) get extra points for doing so (although there was in the past a suspicion they were offloaded from trailers a few miles from the circuit - for clarity I have no idea if that was actually the case).confucuis said:
Sort of the complete opposite of this thread but:
How come Escorts are so expensive when they're bloody everywhere!
I suppose it as simple as:How come Escorts are so expensive when they're bloody everywhere!
- supply and demand. The demand is there and the supply is less than that.
- they are still very competitive (partially due to light weight and partially due to development and performance parts availability)
- there is an excellent spares and tuning availability making them relatively easy to run. You can get everything for them
- rallying in the U.K. is largely “libre based” regs, with a few exceptions, so a lightweight Escort can be upgraded with modern engines, sequential gearboxes, 3-way adjustable remote canister coil over dampers and adjustable camber front suspension and be very competitive.
- they were always popular “back in the day” so no surprise they are popular now.
ChevronB19 said:
Some of us still do that! We’re now at the back rather than the front though… There is certainly one mini driver (in a car he owned from new) who drives to the circuit etc. In HSCC road sports you used to (not sure if still the case) get extra points for doing so (although there was in the past a suspicion they were offloaded from trailers a few miles from the circuit - for clarity I have no idea if that was actually the case).
Yes I remember that in 70s Road Sports, and applauded the HSCC for encouraging drivers to do so. I supposed for the pre-66 lot it comes back to those lovely Dunlop crossplies, as I understand they're marked on the sidewalls as 'FOR RACE USE ONLY' which immediately throws a spanner in the works..Another issue is probably that the cars have now become that 'developed' that the majority of cars would be horrific to drive on the road, where as previously cars may have been running milder cams or more sensible suspension setups. And then our lovely road networks that in places appear to resemble more a bombed road in the middle of Baghdad than a smooth stretch of tarmac.
There is the effect of the high profile classic racing like Goodwood and the Silverstone Classics.
Back in the early 2000s we acquired a Nissan Primera Super Touring for our sponsor to use .
Cost approx £12.5k with a spares package.
Fast forward and the cars are now on the high profile classic racing package and you would need £100k to join the club .
One thing we have noticed over the years is that the original racers built and maintained their own cars ,many modern owners have to pay others to prepare and maintain the race cars . This is very expensive.
Want to race a classic E type Jag ?
If paying someone else to build it for you best budget £150k plus and plus a donor car . Then probably another £50k in entry fees and basic running costs, any damage and mechanical breakages would be extra.
Back in the early 2000s we acquired a Nissan Primera Super Touring for our sponsor to use .
Cost approx £12.5k with a spares package.
Fast forward and the cars are now on the high profile classic racing package and you would need £100k to join the club .
One thing we have noticed over the years is that the original racers built and maintained their own cars ,many modern owners have to pay others to prepare and maintain the race cars . This is very expensive.
Want to race a classic E type Jag ?
If paying someone else to build it for you best budget £150k plus and plus a donor car . Then probably another £50k in entry fees and basic running costs, any damage and mechanical breakages would be extra.
Same goes for everything, even if you run something 'cheap' like a Mini, a Swiftune race engine apparently costs over £20k, and running at those stresses it'll probably need regular rebuilds.
But, it's the bar that's been set by the 'larger wallet than capability' crowd, so the rest have to follow suit or be left behind on the straights. I guess to people spending £80k+ to build a Mini, £100k+ to build a Cortina, £1k on a set of 4 tyres isn't the end of the world. Yes you'll always get costs spiralling, but I recall historic saloon car racing in the '80s, when people actually drove their cars to the circuit, 'prepared' it themselves by checking fluid levels and tightening the wheel nuts, then going out for a day's competition; grateful I got to experience these times, they were certainly better than whatever historic motorsport has turned in to now.
[/quote]
Reminds of a friend who went from grass track racing to Mini tarmac racing, bought a car spent £6500 on a race engine that lasted 1 1/2 laps of Brands Hatch before seizing!! he went back to Grass track racing and this was best part of 30 years ago!!
But, it's the bar that's been set by the 'larger wallet than capability' crowd, so the rest have to follow suit or be left behind on the straights. I guess to people spending £80k+ to build a Mini, £100k+ to build a Cortina, £1k on a set of 4 tyres isn't the end of the world. Yes you'll always get costs spiralling, but I recall historic saloon car racing in the '80s, when people actually drove their cars to the circuit, 'prepared' it themselves by checking fluid levels and tightening the wheel nuts, then going out for a day's competition; grateful I got to experience these times, they were certainly better than whatever historic motorsport has turned in to now.
[/quote]
Reminds of a friend who went from grass track racing to Mini tarmac racing, bought a car spent £6500 on a race engine that lasted 1 1/2 laps of Brands Hatch before seizing!! he went back to Grass track racing and this was best part of 30 years ago!!
garypotter said:
Same goes for everything, even if you run something 'cheap' like a Mini, a Swiftune race engine apparently costs over £20k, and running at those stresses it'll probably need regular rebuilds.
But, it's the bar that's been set by the 'larger wallet than capability' crowd, so the rest have to follow suit or be left behind on the straights. I guess to people spending £80k+ to build a Mini, £100k+ to build a Cortina, £1k on a set of 4 tyres isn't the end of the world. Yes you'll always get costs spiralling, but I recall historic saloon car racing in the '80s, when people actually drove their cars to the circuit, 'prepared' it themselves by checking fluid levels and tightening the wheel nuts, then going out for a day's competition; grateful I got to experience these times, they were certainly better than whatever historic motorsport has turned in to now.
Reminds of a friend who went from grass track racing to Mini tarmac racing, bought a car spent £6500 on a race engine that lasted 1 1/2 laps of Brands Hatch before seizing!! he went back to Grass track racing and this was best part of 30 years ago!!But, it's the bar that's been set by the 'larger wallet than capability' crowd, so the rest have to follow suit or be left behind on the straights. I guess to people spending £80k+ to build a Mini, £100k+ to build a Cortina, £1k on a set of 4 tyres isn't the end of the world. Yes you'll always get costs spiralling, but I recall historic saloon car racing in the '80s, when people actually drove their cars to the circuit, 'prepared' it themselves by checking fluid levels and tightening the wheel nuts, then going out for a day's competition; grateful I got to experience these times, they were certainly better than whatever historic motorsport has turned in to now.
It has been done along the lines of the guys in their sheds in the 70/80s .
No exotic material,engines or fancy electronics.
One of the criteria has been to build it for less than most would spend on a race engine .
After 4 years , COVID ,a major speedway accident and a very busy workshop it's almost ready for the circuit .
garypotter said:
Same goes for everything, even if you run something 'cheap' like a Mini, a Swiftune race engine apparently costs over £20k, and running at those stresses it'll probably need regular rebuilds.
But, it's the bar that's been set by the 'larger wallet than capability' crowd, so the rest have to follow suit or be left behind on the straights. I guess to people spending £80k+ to build a Mini, £100k+ to build a Cortina, £1k on a set of 4 tyres isn't the end of the world. Yes you'll always get costs spiralling, but I recall historic saloon car racing in the '80s, when people actually drove their cars to the circuit, 'prepared' it themselves by checking fluid levels and tightening the wheel nuts, then going out for a day's competition; grateful I got to experience these times, they were certainly better than whatever historic motorsport has turned in to now.
Reminds of a friend who went from grass track racing to Mini tarmac racing, bought a car spent £6500 on a race engine that lasted 1 1/2 laps of Brands Hatch before seizing!! he went back to Grass track racing and this was best part of 30 years ago!!But, it's the bar that's been set by the 'larger wallet than capability' crowd, so the rest have to follow suit or be left behind on the straights. I guess to people spending £80k+ to build a Mini, £100k+ to build a Cortina, £1k on a set of 4 tyres isn't the end of the world. Yes you'll always get costs spiralling, but I recall historic saloon car racing in the '80s, when people actually drove their cars to the circuit, 'prepared' it themselves by checking fluid levels and tightening the wheel nuts, then going out for a day's competition; grateful I got to experience these times, they were certainly better than whatever historic motorsport has turned in to now.
You'd be horrified if you saw how sophisticated many Autograss cars are now
The building of my mates Citroen 2CV8 race car has shown us where much of the amateur racing in the UK going wrong .
The car has been built for less than the cost most spend on a race engine. We have had messages from several clubs in Europe who would cover the expenses to race and travel over the channel.
The other side is the number of our ex race cars that when sold virtually disappeared. Several of them cars that won national championships with great history and were in ready to race condition when sold .
A couple have recently returned to the circuits but tend to run in midfield or further back .
Lots of the problems are tied up with money/ running costs .
As always the cost of building or buying the car is just the start of the destruction of your bank account.
Transporting the car ,entry fees , membership,fuel,tyres ,spares , accommodation,repairs each year can often cost more than the car did originally, more so if you are travelling the length of the country.
Even doing a local circuit race meeting can cost (10 miles away) £600 for 30 minutes of track time . Yet a track day giving 2.5 hours of track time can cost significantly less .
The car has been built for less than the cost most spend on a race engine. We have had messages from several clubs in Europe who would cover the expenses to race and travel over the channel.
The other side is the number of our ex race cars that when sold virtually disappeared. Several of them cars that won national championships with great history and were in ready to race condition when sold .
A couple have recently returned to the circuits but tend to run in midfield or further back .
Lots of the problems are tied up with money/ running costs .
As always the cost of building or buying the car is just the start of the destruction of your bank account.
Transporting the car ,entry fees , membership,fuel,tyres ,spares , accommodation,repairs each year can often cost more than the car did originally, more so if you are travelling the length of the country.
Even doing a local circuit race meeting can cost (10 miles away) £600 for 30 minutes of track time . Yet a track day giving 2.5 hours of track time can cost significantly less .
I think it is still possible to race "cheaply" (I do as best I can) but if you want to be at the front, you have to spend a fortune. I only started racing a year or so ago but I was amazed at the amount of winnebagos and support teams being used in club racing. Those of us who turn up with the car on the back of a trailer appear to now be in the minority. It's a shame really as I think it puts people off even starting
As it seems a rare thing to be done, I thought i'd sing the praises of the Classic Touring Car Racing Club's meeting that I attended @ Donington Park on the last weekend in March. The club managed to gather 30-ish pre-66 touring cars on the grid for 2 races over the weekend, along with a few other well-supported series, and it was a great spectacle to see; amidst the news that clubs like HSCC are struggling for entries to some of their series, it was heartening to see so many likeminded enthusiasts gathering to compete together, and the paddock atmosphere was genuinely friendly and approachable - something i've not experienced at even a historic club meeting for a number of years.
The club shared the venue for the weekend with some form of Britcar series, so at points there were modern GT3 cars in the pitlane with full on fuelling rigs etc, but it made a nice change to see such a number of historic racing saloons on the grid together at the same time - on the whole the racing was clean and closely fought too
I also saw on YouTube there was a meeting at Donington Park a few weeks earlier with a miscellany of 60s sports cars and saloons, with Elan 26Rs and 'lightweight' E Types overtaking Jaguar Mk2 saloons - not sure of the appeal of competing in such a 'run what you brung' series, but it was well supported also and good to see so many cars competing there also 
The club shared the venue for the weekend with some form of Britcar series, so at points there were modern GT3 cars in the pitlane with full on fuelling rigs etc, but it made a nice change to see such a number of historic racing saloons on the grid together at the same time - on the whole the racing was clean and closely fought too
I also saw on YouTube there was a meeting at Donington Park a few weeks earlier with a miscellany of 60s sports cars and saloons, with Elan 26Rs and 'lightweight' E Types overtaking Jaguar Mk2 saloons - not sure of the appeal of competing in such a 'run what you brung' series, but it was well supported also and good to see so many cars competing there also Chunkychucky said:
I also saw on YouTube there was a meeting at Donington Park a few weeks earlier with a miscellany of 60s sports cars and saloons, with Elan 26Rs and 'lightweight' E Types overtaking Jaguar Mk2 saloons - not sure of the appeal of competing in such a 'run what you brung' series, but it was well supported also and good to see so many cars competing there also
That would have been the Classic Sports Car Club (CSCC).Something like 450 cars entered over the who,e weekend with separate races for cars from the 60s (the one you referenced - “Swinging Sixties”; 70s & 80s (Future Classics), 90s (Modern Classics); Post 2000 era (New Millenium) with additional separate races for <2 litre tin tops, turbo tin tops, cars on slick tyres, Locaterfield type cars, one make races for BMWs and MGs, who have joined the club this year after their organising clubs decided to reduce their motorsport involvement.
Within each race there are separate classes based on capacity so the 26R are not really racing in the same class as the Mk2 Jags etc.
The appeal is that it’s a well run club with very big grids, 40 min races with a pit stop for 1 or 2 drivers (so costs can be shared), good driving standards and good value for money.
andy97 said:
That would have been the Classic Sports Car Club (CSCC).
Something like 450 cars entered over the who,e weekend with separate races for cars from the 60s (the one you referenced - “Swinging Sixties”; 70s & 80s (Future Classics), 90s (Modern Classics); Post 2000 era (New Millenium) with additional separate races for <2 litre tin tops, turbo tin tops, cars on slick tyres, Locaterfield type cars, one make races for BMWs and MGs, who have joined the club this year after their organising clubs decided to reduce their motorsport involvement.
Within each race there are separate classes based on capacity so the 26R are not really racing in the same class as the Mk2 Jags etc.
The appeal is that it’s a well run club with very big grids, 40 min races with a pit stop for 1 or 2 drivers (so costs can be shared), good driving standards and good value for money.
I did the cscc test/trackday there earlier in the year, really nice club, very much "blokes with cars" and not "blokes renting a car off a team" Something like 450 cars entered over the who,e weekend with separate races for cars from the 60s (the one you referenced - “Swinging Sixties”; 70s & 80s (Future Classics), 90s (Modern Classics); Post 2000 era (New Millenium) with additional separate races for <2 litre tin tops, turbo tin tops, cars on slick tyres, Locaterfield type cars, one make races for BMWs and MGs, who have joined the club this year after their organising clubs decided to reduce their motorsport involvement.
Within each race there are separate classes based on capacity so the 26R are not really racing in the same class as the Mk2 Jags etc.
The appeal is that it’s a well run club with very big grids, 40 min races with a pit stop for 1 or 2 drivers (so costs can be shared), good driving standards and good value for money.
andy97 said:
That would have been the Classic Sports Car Club (CSCC).
Something like 450 cars entered over the who,e weekend with separate races for cars from the 60s (the one you referenced - “Swinging Sixties”; 70s & 80s (Future Classics), 90s (Modern Classics); Post 2000 era (New Millenium) with additional separate races for <2 litre tin tops, turbo tin tops, cars on slick tyres, Locaterfield type cars, one make races for BMWs and MGs, who have joined the club this year after their organising clubs decided to reduce their motorsport involvement.
Within each race there are separate classes based on capacity so the 26R are not really racing in the same class as the Mk2 Jags etc.
The appeal is that it’s a well run club with very big grids, 40 min races with a pit stop for 1 or 2 drivers (so costs can be shared), good driving standards and good value for money.
I watched the aforementioned Swinging Sixties race, and have to say I was left wondering the merit; racing is obviously good fun, however turning up to such a race with a 'semi lightweight' E Type or an Elan 26R smacks a bit of 'pot hunting' to me. The cars were in a completely different league to most other things on the circuit, and in post-race interviews at least one of the drivers alluded to slower cars impeding their race; granted there would be an element of this in a 60s touring car or gran touring car race anyway, but competing with cars of a similar class/performance would eliminate that, and prevent the 2 car battle there was for the lead with various other small battles going on throughout the field. I did find it amusing however watching the Lotus Cortinas, climbing all over the back of the Lotus Elans which is something that you don't see every day. Something like 450 cars entered over the who,e weekend with separate races for cars from the 60s (the one you referenced - “Swinging Sixties”; 70s & 80s (Future Classics), 90s (Modern Classics); Post 2000 era (New Millenium) with additional separate races for <2 litre tin tops, turbo tin tops, cars on slick tyres, Locaterfield type cars, one make races for BMWs and MGs, who have joined the club this year after their organising clubs decided to reduce their motorsport involvement.
Within each race there are separate classes based on capacity so the 26R are not really racing in the same class as the Mk2 Jags etc.
The appeal is that it’s a well run club with very big grids, 40 min races with a pit stop for 1 or 2 drivers (so costs can be shared), good driving standards and good value for money.
I don't particularly enjoy these races where there's a plethora of different types of car entered, and to have a separate race going on for only Jaguar Mk1/2 saloons was weird - but driving standards on the whole seemed clean and the cars were nicely turned out. Value for money is subjective, and as far as i'm aware clubs like CTCRC cater for historic saloons (among others) with 2 races across a weekend, so if drivers needed or wanted to share costs they could have the pleasure of doing an entire race themselves, instead of inheriting something at a pit stop with tyres/brakes already cooked.
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