Where Have All The Racing Cars Gone?
Discussion
Dewi 2 said:
I might be wrong, but I tend to think of HSCC and HSCC as being the type of historic saloons that race in the Goodwood Revival.
In other words, expensive and extremely fast.
On occasions, visiting Mini Cooper S cars have come from other race series, to race in a CTCRC event and have easily achieved overall wins.
ChevronB19 said:
HSCC HRSR (acronym hell!) has the fantastic advantage of being surrounded by other races with cars from all eras as well. So it’s great to spectate *and* race. Expensive tyres, yes, but they are *far* more fun to drive on M sections than on modern compounds. Unfortunately grids are low at the moment, but the metal panel class will hopefully help. Entry and membership fees are way cheaper than HRDC too.
Yeah I grew up going to HSCC meetings and loved the fact you could watch historic touring cars racing so closely (Chris Sanders' LUV12, Graham Dodd's Mk2 Jag, Simon Garrad's BMW 2000 and latterly Dan Cox's 105e etc.) whilst also being entertained by lovely historic F5000 cars and the eclectic roadsports series. I've not tried my car on anything other than CR65s as yet but agreed they're great fun, and the lower costs in addition with that new 'Economy' class are what's steering me in the direction of competing with HSCC. Great variety of tracks too - Cadwell, Oulton, Croft, shame the HRSR are not invited to the Brands GP meeting too! Was hoping to get along to Cadwell this weekend to spectate but unfortunately unavoidably detained..
ChevronB19 said:
Dewi 2 said:
I might be wrong, but I tend to think of HSCC and HSCC as being the type of historic saloons that race in the Goodwood Revival.
In other words, expensive and extremely fast.
On occasions, visiting Mini Cooper S cars have come from other race series, to race in a CTCRC event and have easily achieved overall wins.
I may not have written clearly, but was trying to draw an overall performance comparison between CTCRC Pre-66 races and those in other Pre-66 championships. Your description of 4th o/a, then later on being at the back with the same lap time, clearly illustrates the performance increases. Everyone spends more, so everyone gets quicker. Competitors might even still be running in the same race order as before, although with lighter wallets. Lap times in the CTCRC might be slower than other series, therefore making it possibly a good place to start competing, without finishing last.
Entry list for this weekend's GoldCup is strong. HRDC seems strong, Equipe is strong as has been said. Most historic single seater forumlas seem strong, and we even had a high number of Super Tourers out a few weeks ago.
HSCC seems to have tailed off entry wise, and their series portfolio seems to have dropped off a cliff in the past few years. Masters is also struggling for numbers bar Pre 66/Masters GT in this country.
Yet PeterAuto costs way more in Europe and entries are insane. 50+ cars in pretty much every race at Spa a month or so ago. I don't understand, but I don't think cost is the issue as the most expensive series seem to fill grids.
HSCC seems to have tailed off entry wise, and their series portfolio seems to have dropped off a cliff in the past few years. Masters is also struggling for numbers bar Pre 66/Masters GT in this country.
Yet PeterAuto costs way more in Europe and entries are insane. 50+ cars in pretty much every race at Spa a month or so ago. I don't understand, but I don't think cost is the issue as the most expensive series seem to fill grids.
Skylinecrazy said:
Entry list for this weekend's GoldCup is strong. HRDC seems strong, Equipe is strong as has been said. Most historic single seater forumlas seem strong, and we even had a high number of Super Tourers out a few weeks ago.
HSCC seems to have tailed off entry wise, and their series portfolio seems to have dropped off a cliff in the past few years. Masters is also struggling for numbers bar Pre 66/Masters GT in this country.
Yet PeterAuto costs way more in Europe and entries are insane. 50+ cars in pretty much every race at Spa a month or so ago. I don't understand, but I don't think cost is the issue as the most expensive series seem to fill grids.
Yeah PeterAuto seems to maintain strong grids and levels of entries, get some lovely cars out at their meetings.HSCC seems to have tailed off entry wise, and their series portfolio seems to have dropped off a cliff in the past few years. Masters is also struggling for numbers bar Pre 66/Masters GT in this country.
Yet PeterAuto costs way more in Europe and entries are insane. 50+ cars in pretty much every race at Spa a month or so ago. I don't understand, but I don't think cost is the issue as the most expensive series seem to fill grids.
HRDC are doing alright by amalgamating what were previously 4 or 5 races in to 2 grids - not ideal from a competitor's point of view, but it gets them races with 20+ cars on the grid so suppose if it works for them... Quite the disparity to how things used to be, I recall a 'Top Hat' meeting at Castle Combe in probably 2004/05, there was a grid of 20+ cars for the 'Oldies but Goldies' race of '50s saloons, then another grid of 30+ cars for the Pre-66 Appendix K touring car race. With a combined 50+ cars across both eras it's a shame neither can apparently sustain entry numbers to have their own races.
The Super Tourers are a double-edged sword IMO, i'd love an E36 supertourer, but the cars seem so fickle and expensive that owners hardly ever get them out; when they do, it seems pot luck how many you actually get to see, with some never making it out of the garage, others breaking down in practice/qualifying never to be seen again. They are a spectacle and massively more interesting to me than modern touring cars, but feel they're somewhat victims of their own value, worth and complexity.
In terms of supertourers, when HSCC first launched it years ago, values for the latest, fastest ones shot up. It took approximately one season for everyone to realise that an eligible Sierra Cosworth/M3 was almost as quick, far more reliable and half (or less) the cost to run. Late era supertourer values dropped like a stone.
ChevronB19 said:
In terms of supertourers, when HSCC first launched it years ago, values for the latest, fastest ones shot up. It took approximately one season for everyone to realise that an eligible Sierra Cosworth/M3 was almost as quick, far more reliable and half (or less) the cost to run. Late era supertourer values dropped like a stone.
I wish the sellers would take note of that, an E36 'ST' when advertised is still being stuck up for >£250k 
No idea if they're selling at that, but either way it's a good 2/3 times my budget, then you have to budget for spare engines/gearboxes, regular suspension rebuilds etc etc...Couldn't find anywhere more suited to post this so thought I would appeal to the collective historic motorsport knowledge pool/brain trust/anoraks (delete as appropriate). I saw a car I was familiar with long ago recently resurfaced, a '50s Alfa Romeo 'historic touring car', previously raced by Jon Dooley and a lovely car (pictured below):
Now I see this car has been bought by Mike/Andrew Jordan and their bunch of merrymen, who have unceremoniously ripped the car to bits and rebuilt it. All well and good, in-keeping with the spirit of this thread in that it's reviving a competition car from years gone to see that it continues battling on the circuits. However, I know i'm getting on a bit and my eyes/memory aren't what they used to be, but hasn't the Goodwood Revival St Mary's Trophy always been for historic racing cars as they were run in period? If so, how on Earth have JRT been allowed to add Group 2/Thundersaloon flares to their Alfa Romeo, and still gain an entry to Goodwood?
I appreciate some people take events like The Revival a lot more seriously than others and will go to unthinkable lengths to 'win' - regardless, never seen a historic touring car running there like it in recent memory, and i've been to probably 10 Revivals over the past 20 years - illustration from the interwebs below (looks far more obvious in person, particularly back edge of the sills to wheelarches):
Now I see this car has been bought by Mike/Andrew Jordan and their bunch of merrymen, who have unceremoniously ripped the car to bits and rebuilt it. All well and good, in-keeping with the spirit of this thread in that it's reviving a competition car from years gone to see that it continues battling on the circuits. However, I know i'm getting on a bit and my eyes/memory aren't what they used to be, but hasn't the Goodwood Revival St Mary's Trophy always been for historic racing cars as they were run in period? If so, how on Earth have JRT been allowed to add Group 2/Thundersaloon flares to their Alfa Romeo, and still gain an entry to Goodwood?
I appreciate some people take events like The Revival a lot more seriously than others and will go to unthinkable lengths to 'win' - regardless, never seen a historic touring car running there like it in recent memory, and i've been to probably 10 Revivals over the past 20 years - illustration from the interwebs below (looks far more obvious in person, particularly back edge of the sills to wheelarches):Lovely thing . I am relaxed about provenance of some of the cars racing at Goodwood. Some were hardly ever seen in period , and /or were dog slow back then , but unlikely hotrods are a part of the parallel universe which is Goodwood. I love it - and the Alfa looks fabulous .I remember Richard Meaden having a heroic fight in a similar (ish ) car a few years ago .
Absolutely, lovely cars and as you say Meaden and even Pirro have driven these small Giuliettas to great effect in previous years - wish someone would do the job propely and turn up with a '50s 1900 Berlina, used them on the Mille Miglia but not seen one circuit racing over here 
Even the car Meaden drove from memory didn't have flared arches on it, such an odd thing to fit as they don't obviously help with wheel/tyre fitment, and when you look at it parked next to another one with standard wheelarches they stick out like a saw thumb! Not seen the Jags, Austin A35s/Westminsters etc rock up with altered bodywork panels, hopefully it doesn't set a precedent for everyone else to start taking the piss too..
Even the car Meaden drove from memory didn't have flared arches on it, such an odd thing to fit as they don't obviously help with wheel/tyre fitment, and when you look at it parked next to another one with standard wheelarches they stick out like a saw thumb! Not seen the Jags, Austin A35s/Westminsters etc rock up with altered bodywork panels, hopefully it doesn't set a precedent for everyone else to start taking the piss too..
Last week I got my old Tasmin (owned since 2019) back on circuit (Mallory Park) after.. well i don't know when it was last on tbh, converted to racer back in 2001 (for 750mc roadsports). I saw some history of it being recommissioned (including paint i think) in 2010 by Wedge Automotive (RT Racing, original builders I believe) , but belts/seat/Extinguisher expired back in 2005, paint's the same as i've seen back in 2010 and no signs of it being stickered up. Got a big old list of jobs to do over the winter before deciding what to do with it, but like above imo there's a balance between keeping it original and doing some work to modernise it a bit.
I find Goodwood to be a bit of an anomaly in terms of judging the health of classic Motorsport or seeing which cars still exist / have been restored.
At least 4 of the grids had around 30 cars at Castle Combe yesterday (and Ferrari Club Classic had 20, an impressive treat for the ears). I know these things ebb and flow and it does depend on which series they secure each year for the Autumn Classic, but considering the values of many of these now, and given this is probably the most under-the-radar classic event oh the year (which is why I love it), I was hugely impressed the range of cars.
In terms of sheet volume we (UK) must have a staggering number of race-worthy classics still.
At least 4 of the grids had around 30 cars at Castle Combe yesterday (and Ferrari Club Classic had 20, an impressive treat for the ears). I know these things ebb and flow and it does depend on which series they secure each year for the Autumn Classic, but considering the values of many of these now, and given this is probably the most under-the-radar classic event oh the year (which is why I love it), I was hugely impressed the range of cars.
In terms of sheet volume we (UK) must have a staggering number of race-worthy classics still.
Having spoken to some friends who have competed in historic motorsport over the past 20 years, and who no longer compete, they intimated a large part of them no longer competing was the cost aspect.
One pal made a good point, and that was Dunlop, in particular their historic crossply racing tyre. Seemingly this tyre is stipulated to be used in 90% of historic motorsport regulations, however the prices of these tyres have increased astronomically over the past 20 years, to the point now where one chap said he could get a 7 day family holiday for the price of a set of 4 tyres for his historic sports car.
Given the size of a company like Dunlop, does this ruinous pricing really need to be taking place? Granted a company needs to make money to function, but >£200 for a 13 inch crossply tyre is taking the piss. Why does everyone stipulate these Dunlop crossply tyres need to be run? Are Dunlop 'greasing the palms' of race organisers to curry favour and ensure their tyres are stipulated?
Yes they are lovely to drive on and great to spectate with owing to the slip angles of the cars, but when it starts affecting the ability of competitors to enter race events, something needs to be done. It's a shame no race organisers have taken this real-world view, instead b
dising their series by opening grids up to multiple series/different eras of cars. At the end of the day, if things continue the way they are, series organisers will be faced with empty grids and bankruptcy, it's surely a matter of time/economics. Does anyone know historic race series that allow you to run on tyres that don't cost the Earth?
And that's just for tyres - don't get me started on 'race fuels'... [rant over - apologies if someone has pointed this out already]
One pal made a good point, and that was Dunlop, in particular their historic crossply racing tyre. Seemingly this tyre is stipulated to be used in 90% of historic motorsport regulations, however the prices of these tyres have increased astronomically over the past 20 years, to the point now where one chap said he could get a 7 day family holiday for the price of a set of 4 tyres for his historic sports car.
Given the size of a company like Dunlop, does this ruinous pricing really need to be taking place? Granted a company needs to make money to function, but >£200 for a 13 inch crossply tyre is taking the piss. Why does everyone stipulate these Dunlop crossply tyres need to be run? Are Dunlop 'greasing the palms' of race organisers to curry favour and ensure their tyres are stipulated?
Yes they are lovely to drive on and great to spectate with owing to the slip angles of the cars, but when it starts affecting the ability of competitors to enter race events, something needs to be done. It's a shame no race organisers have taken this real-world view, instead b
dising their series by opening grids up to multiple series/different eras of cars. At the end of the day, if things continue the way they are, series organisers will be faced with empty grids and bankruptcy, it's surely a matter of time/economics. Does anyone know historic race series that allow you to run on tyres that don't cost the Earth?And that's just for tyres - don't get me started on 'race fuels'... [rant over - apologies if someone has pointed this out already]
Oilchange said:
Someone else needs to make these type of tyres and charge £50 a corner.
If all the race cars turn up with non dunlop tyres, what are they going to do, disqualify all of them? No cars on the grid?
Clearly they have had their palms greased.
I’m an ex committee member for an historic race series, and can guarantee you there was no palm greasing going on. Yes, dunlops are expensive, but the one thing they do have is that they are damn good fun to drive on!If all the race cars turn up with non dunlop tyres, what are they going to do, disqualify all of them? No cars on the grid?
Clearly they have had their palms greased.
Edited by ChevronB19 on Tuesday 5th December 09:32
Oilchange said:
So can the drivers choose another tyre or are they forced to use Dunlops?
Whether or not Dunlops are fun to drive on isn't the point
The series (well obviously only certain series, including the one I helped run) specify Dunlop (L or M section, some allow both, others don’t).Whether or not Dunlops are fun to drive on isn't the point
Yes, as per your previous comment, if the entire grid turned up on Yokohamas, they would be excluded, just as if they turned up with any other blatant breaking of published regulations. There is a *small* potential get out of running in an invitation class for certain cases, so long as if they were notified beforehand and the entry approved.
I’m worried about your comment about ‘palms being greased’. I can assure you that isn’t the case.
CKY said:
Does anyone know historic race series that allow you to run on tyres that don't cost the Earth?
If by “historic” you mean a series to FIA Appendix K regs then probably not, but there are club racing series with age related classes where tyres such as Yokohama A048s are allowed and cars do not have to be to homologated spec. I am talking about CSCC Swinging Sixties as an obvious example but I think there are others. CSCCs Classic K series, though, does use Dunlop historic tyres and Appendix K regs. Nevertheless some people do run in both series, simply changing the tyres between races.ChevronB19 said:
The series (well obviously only certain series, including the one I helped run) specify Dunlop (L or M section, some allow both, others don’t).
Yes, as per your previous comment, if the entire grid turned up on Yokohamas, they would be excluded, just as if they turned up with any other blatant breaking of published regulations. There is a *small* potential get out of running in an invitation class for certain cases, so long as if they were notified beforehand and the entry approved.
I’m worried about your comment about ‘palms being greased’. I can assure you that isn’t the case.
OK but the thread is about race cars that aren't seen any more so if Dunlop are pricing people out of racing (because they have a monopoly on the series) then that might be one of the reasons!Yes, as per your previous comment, if the entire grid turned up on Yokohamas, they would be excluded, just as if they turned up with any other blatant breaking of published regulations. There is a *small* potential get out of running in an invitation class for certain cases, so long as if they were notified beforehand and the entry approved.
I’m worried about your comment about ‘palms being greased’. I can assure you that isn’t the case.
Oilchange said:
OK but the thread is about race cars that aren't seen any more so if Dunlop are pricing people out of racing (because they have a monopoly on the series) then that might be one of the reasons!
There is very limited choice in the correct size tyres. It’s all about tyre profile. It’s the same with road cars. I need a 205 75 14 on one of my cars. 30 years ago that’d have been £45 and a 205 60 14 would have been £150. Now that 60 profile is £60 and the 75 is £300. The lack of all round demand for higher profile carcass has driven the prices up. Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff