Arrive and Drive / Team managed?
Discussion
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
I largely agree with this. The cost of hiring is eye watering. Especially when, if you are running a car your self, you know what the costs are. BTW fairly certain those fees don't include the entry.
SO it's closer to 2k.
Now if you know you could never afford faster car than the one you got, then maybe hiring one to scratch and itch or prove a point might be worthwhile, and indeed I am thinking of doing something like this for my special birthday in 2024. A team might argue that there's the build cost to pay for, mechanics time, and transport but taking your MX5 example id suggest a figure of £1200 all in is a fairer reflection.
£300 car hire
£300 mechanic hire
£300 pre race prep and travel costs
£300 entry fee.
And then you might have to insure it , or leave a not inconsiderable damage deposit.
Whereas I can do a race for £500-600 depending how far I have to travel. And budget maybe £500-1000 pa for spares which includes 2x tyres.
I have some reservations about the place of professional teams running cars in club motorsport, there is no question that it is changing the game and making it harder for drivers that run their own cars to be competitive on anything like what used to be considered a sensible budget. On the other hand a lot of drivers are not fortunate enough to have experience and facilities to prep and run their own car and grids would be a lot smaller if they were excluded. SO it's closer to 2k.
Now if you know you could never afford faster car than the one you got, then maybe hiring one to scratch and itch or prove a point might be worthwhile, and indeed I am thinking of doing something like this for my special birthday in 2024. A team might argue that there's the build cost to pay for, mechanics time, and transport but taking your MX5 example id suggest a figure of £1200 all in is a fairer reflection.
£300 car hire
£300 mechanic hire
£300 pre race prep and travel costs
£300 entry fee.
And then you might have to insure it , or leave a not inconsiderable damage deposit.
Whereas I can do a race for £500-600 depending how far I have to travel. And budget maybe £500-1000 pa for spares which includes 2x tyres.
But on the costs, some of the numbers on this thread don’t seem high to me, quite the opposite.
How much does it cost to build a race spec MX5? If you think it’s less than £10k then you are not allowing for the hours spent doing it or you think they should be free because you don’t add them up when you are doing it yourself.
If it is £10k then it would have to be rented out at 33 race weekends @£300 just to cover the cost. For starters that means throwing £10k in parts and hours at something that is running a proper loss for a few years, then consider the ongoing maintenance that doesn’t get covered by the £300 per meeting prep/travel costs………..
By the time you’ve unloaded and just cleaned the car off and checked it over from the last race that’s a couple of hours. Going through any snagging, loading up again etc is a couple more, at least. Lets be generous and say £50/hr for that and £200 of the £300 prep/travel budget is gone, now we have to get it to the track. You could look at the cost of a van and trailer and start to work that in but it’s probably easier just to do a mileage charge, typical recovery/towing now is about £1.50-2.00/mile so if the team centrally based they probably have an average distance of 100m to track over the season so that’s 200m return at £1.50 = £300.
So that’s actually £500 gone already and during the 33 race meetings this car has to complete just to pay for itself there will be annual suspension rebuilds, bushes, engine maintenance and probably repair, cosmetic damage to sort out - nothing big enough that you could bill it back to the last driver but plenty scabby enough that the next one won’t want to see it (or will take less care with the car if he does). This stuff takes labour time as well as parts etc so I’m going to say £2k annually would be a cheap result, if you manage to get it out on ten weekends that’s still another £200 per event.
Mechanic hire. Well if it’s a one day event and the mechanic is also the one bringing the car then £300 is ok, possibly generous but if you are trying to get it done in one day it is a long day! If the races are spread over two days it’s more and then there’s accommodation and food to cover, testing as well would obviously add to this if you want it as well as the additional hire costs.
Entry fee, as discussed, £300 is not impossible, just pretty unusual.
Then someone needs to pay for tyres, brakes, fuel etc, you didn’t think that was included in the £300 car hire did you? Arrive and driver drivers may not expect new tyres at every meeting but they will expect pretty decent ones, ten meetings per year, lets say two sets so by the time they are binned they’ve still had over a dozen heat cycles; they will be over £100 a corner so call it a grand or £100 per meeting. Same again in fuel and say £50 towards brakes and bits and bobs. That’s another £250.
So I make that £1850 if it’s a cheap entry, one day event with no testing, over £2k if it’s a weekender and well over £3k if you want to test on the Friday. In a relatively light weight, low power, entry level club race series.
And don’t forget this is if you can find someone who can offer you this service without having to add in any costs for running his business or make a living out of it. The only "profit" in the whole job is a bit of labour time for prep and a day rate at the event, nothing extra to cover insurance, rent, tools and equipment or anything to cover all the other days in the week.
An arrive/drive car with 60 races under its belt 
. Every car will have a value but unless it’s had a lot of success it’s a fair gamble to hope that it will sell for more than it has cost to build and even more unlikely it will cover any of the time it took.
The simple fact is that a lot of teams are in fact enthuiasts that are subsidising other peoples racing with their own time. I’m not saying it’s necessarily a bad thing if they want to do it and a few will end up doing it for a living but in the meantime they don’t need calling out for being too expensive while they are doing it at what any business would call a loss
. Every car will have a value but unless it’s had a lot of success it’s a fair gamble to hope that it will sell for more than it has cost to build and even more unlikely it will cover any of the time it took. The simple fact is that a lot of teams are in fact enthuiasts that are subsidising other peoples racing with their own time. I’m not saying it’s necessarily a bad thing if they want to do it and a few will end up doing it for a living but in the meantime they don’t need calling out for being too expensive while they are doing it at what any business would call a loss
I won't quote your reply Steve however I am in agreement pretty much on all points.
The professional teams in club motorsport is interesting as you point out if it didn't happen then possibly some people wouldn't race or they'd (like a few guys in the CGRC) have their own dedicated mechanic, spares supply etc.
With one make series like the Caterham ones, there is obviously a limit to the benefit a pro team has WRT to pace. We can only adjust rollbars and tyre pressures (and how you set the car up but most guys run a neutral or mild toe-out and is seldom changed at the track - which anyone can do) so it comes down to having someone do the stuff you either can't or don't want to but I don't think there is a benefit for the faster guys: one is a "one man band" who does everything himself - enjoying every aspect.
Did having help from a team help me into the series? absolutely. Would I have started racing anyway without it? absolutely, however it did make it easier and as mentioned previously gives a bit of confidence.
I'll give you an example: my first race event was Silverstone, I'd never done a test day before, I trailered the car there, unloaded etc. checked fluids, tyre pressures (asked whoever was nearby) went out for the first session and all good. Second session all good, checked oil, tyre pressures, torqued wheels and so on. All day no dramas.
End of that day was applying stickers for the next day's racing - at the end as I was about to leave the garage I noticed a bolt on the floor (not particularly near my car but the cars had been in and out of the garage all day) - pointed it out to my brother (chief pit-crew!) who picked it up and I thought nothing of it.
Next morning, talking to one of the mechanics (I don't have full support as mentioned before but I'm in the same garages as those that do) and said about the bolt and he, slightly aghast asked if I was checking all my bolts, nuts etc. after each session. Me, oblivious, answered no.
Long story less long, it was a cam cover bolt from my engine and several other things were loose too. It simply didn't occur to me (probably completely obvious to others) that the car would / could unwind itself over the day. Now everything has white marks and is all checked fastidiously. I'm not a mechanical idiot either having swapped engines in cars, gearboxes, etc. etc. but it simply never occurred to me.
It's a simple thing but I wouldn't have asked another driver so the presence of the mechanic definitely saved me from a mechanical failure. As someone posted previously it's the benefit of immediate access to experience and knowledge that I haven't acquired yet.
In a one make series, money only goes so far and 7s are thankfully relatively inexpensive per event. I can see that in other classes though a bigger wallet can make all the difference whether it's through a team or having your own experienced and skilled mechanic/s.
The professional teams in club motorsport is interesting as you point out if it didn't happen then possibly some people wouldn't race or they'd (like a few guys in the CGRC) have their own dedicated mechanic, spares supply etc.
With one make series like the Caterham ones, there is obviously a limit to the benefit a pro team has WRT to pace. We can only adjust rollbars and tyre pressures (and how you set the car up but most guys run a neutral or mild toe-out and is seldom changed at the track - which anyone can do) so it comes down to having someone do the stuff you either can't or don't want to but I don't think there is a benefit for the faster guys: one is a "one man band" who does everything himself - enjoying every aspect.
Did having help from a team help me into the series? absolutely. Would I have started racing anyway without it? absolutely, however it did make it easier and as mentioned previously gives a bit of confidence.
I'll give you an example: my first race event was Silverstone, I'd never done a test day before, I trailered the car there, unloaded etc. checked fluids, tyre pressures (asked whoever was nearby) went out for the first session and all good. Second session all good, checked oil, tyre pressures, torqued wheels and so on. All day no dramas.
End of that day was applying stickers for the next day's racing - at the end as I was about to leave the garage I noticed a bolt on the floor (not particularly near my car but the cars had been in and out of the garage all day) - pointed it out to my brother (chief pit-crew!) who picked it up and I thought nothing of it.
Next morning, talking to one of the mechanics (I don't have full support as mentioned before but I'm in the same garages as those that do) and said about the bolt and he, slightly aghast asked if I was checking all my bolts, nuts etc. after each session. Me, oblivious, answered no.
Long story less long, it was a cam cover bolt from my engine and several other things were loose too. It simply didn't occur to me (probably completely obvious to others) that the car would / could unwind itself over the day. Now everything has white marks and is all checked fastidiously. I'm not a mechanical idiot either having swapped engines in cars, gearboxes, etc. etc. but it simply never occurred to me.
It's a simple thing but I wouldn't have asked another driver so the presence of the mechanic definitely saved me from a mechanical failure. As someone posted previously it's the benefit of immediate access to experience and knowledge that I haven't acquired yet.
In a one make series, money only goes so far and 7s are thankfully relatively inexpensive per event. I can see that in other classes though a bigger wallet can make all the difference whether it's through a team or having your own experienced and skilled mechanic/s.
Steve is very much correct that there would be a lot less people doing club racing without teams running cars. Maybe that’s what some people want, but I can’t see how that could ever be a good thing.
Some people (who run their own cars) seem to get very snooty about people using a team to run a car for them or people going down the arrive and drive route. Not everyone has the ability to build and run their own car, or somewhere to store it, but that should not exclude them from racing.
Also the money thing is nonsense. Regardless of whether they are run by a team or not, people with more money will spend more money. It is not down to teams that motorsport is getting more expensive. And when you actually factor everything in (people who run their own cars often conveniently forget about some of their costs) it may not actually be more expensive to run with a team than running your own car. Especially if you take into account wasted entry fees for races you miss due to failures that could have been fixed or prevented by a team.
Some people (who run their own cars) seem to get very snooty about people using a team to run a car for them or people going down the arrive and drive route. Not everyone has the ability to build and run their own car, or somewhere to store it, but that should not exclude them from racing.
Also the money thing is nonsense. Regardless of whether they are run by a team or not, people with more money will spend more money. It is not down to teams that motorsport is getting more expensive. And when you actually factor everything in (people who run their own cars often conveniently forget about some of their costs) it may not actually be more expensive to run with a team than running your own car. Especially if you take into account wasted entry fees for races you miss due to failures that could have been fixed or prevented by a team.
wioifoiee said:
(i was there at MSD live on the Saturday running my black radical completely on my own so i know the work and suffering required......totally worth it when you get on track though, and saving myself £2k in the process, which is an eye watering amount!)
side question, I was also as MSD live and did wonder if there were people there just running their own cars as a normal test day, not exhibiting or allowing others to drive taster sessions.. was it more expensive than the average Silverstone int. test day? Edited by wioifoiee on Friday 11th November 12:40
My dad has a couple boxsters that are raced. He races as well and having someone there to do all the hard work makes it easier for him, he can sit down have a coffee and not have to worry about the car or timings for sessions as the mechanics do all that. Then will trailer the car to and from the track and drop off to have a check-up after each race. There are a fair few teams at club level who have worked very high up in motorsport as well so they are very very experienced.
ribiero said:
side question, I was also as MSD live and did wonder if there were people there just running their own cars as a normal test day, not exhibiting or allowing others to drive taster sessions.. was it more expensive than the average Silverstone int. test day?
nope it was cheap, that's why i went along. I don't think they originally intended to make some garages available and allow people to join, maybe they were low on numbers.... i was on the mailing list and with a week to go they sent out a surprise email saying people could book some time. It was only £250 for 5x15 min sessions.
In the end only 3 of us turned up lol...
i'm pretty sure everyone else were all exhibitors and/or offering taster sessions.
I think having the option for 'pro' teams to run club level racers can only be a good thing. If it keeps people on the grid who don't have the skills / time to maintain or spanner the car themselves then that can only be a good thing in a time when grid sizes are already a concern for some clubs.
Don't forget that some teams are better than others too, there may be some that are good at keeping cars on track but aren't able to offer good advice on setup, therefore not making their customer faster, but by taking the burden of maintenance off for the weekend gives their driver the pleasure they need from their weekend off work.
The expense issue is the same as any other sport, some can afford / justify it and some can't, thats fine. This is a sport that constantly requires money to keep going, and is ultimately powered by parts and people. Unfortunately parts are getting dearer so businesses have to pass this on. Mechanics have to be paid to work the weekend, may need accommodation, definitely need food and fuel covered, and this isn't cheap. £250 per day from a business is fair to cover this. There seems to be a general concensus in the motor industry that mechanics should be cheap, but they are trying to earn fair money too, whilst working weekends and having to buy their own tools. Not many industries make their staff supply their own equipment!
I have friends that sub their racing by working part time for race teams at weekends, not only do they earn some money they learn more about club racing giving them the skills to run their own car too.
I also see individual clubbies buddying up with other racers at race weekends too and help each other if they have an issue and pass on advise on setup and driving. You can get similar benefits to being in with a team by doing this without the cost
Don't forget that some teams are better than others too, there may be some that are good at keeping cars on track but aren't able to offer good advice on setup, therefore not making their customer faster, but by taking the burden of maintenance off for the weekend gives their driver the pleasure they need from their weekend off work.
The expense issue is the same as any other sport, some can afford / justify it and some can't, thats fine. This is a sport that constantly requires money to keep going, and is ultimately powered by parts and people. Unfortunately parts are getting dearer so businesses have to pass this on. Mechanics have to be paid to work the weekend, may need accommodation, definitely need food and fuel covered, and this isn't cheap. £250 per day from a business is fair to cover this. There seems to be a general concensus in the motor industry that mechanics should be cheap, but they are trying to earn fair money too, whilst working weekends and having to buy their own tools. Not many industries make their staff supply their own equipment!
I have friends that sub their racing by working part time for race teams at weekends, not only do they earn some money they learn more about club racing giving them the skills to run their own car too.
I also see individual clubbies buddying up with other racers at race weekends too and help each other if they have an issue and pass on advise on setup and driving. You can get similar benefits to being in with a team by doing this without the cost
epinettes said:
I think having the option for 'pro' teams to run club level racers can only be a good thing. If it keeps people on the grid who don't have the skills / time to maintain or spanner the car themselves then that can only be a good thing in a time when grid sizes are already a concern for some clubs.
Don't forget that some teams are better than others too, there may be some that are good at keeping cars on track but aren't able to offer good advice on setup, therefore not making their customer faster, but by taking the burden of maintenance off for the weekend gives their driver the pleasure they need from their weekend off work.
The expense issue is the same as any other sport, some can afford / justify it and some can't, thats fine. This is a sport that constantly requires money to keep going, and is ultimately powered by parts and people. Unfortunately parts are getting dearer so businesses have to pass this on. Mechanics have to be paid to work the weekend, may need accommodation, definitely need food and fuel covered, and this isn't cheap. £250 per day from a business is fair to cover this. There seems to be a general concensus in the motor industry that mechanics should be cheap, but they are trying to earn fair money too, whilst working weekends and having to buy their own tools. Not many industries make their staff supply their own equipment!
I have friends that sub their racing by working part time for race teams at weekends, not only do they earn some money they learn more about club racing giving them the skills to run their own car too.
I also see individual clubbies buddying up with other racers at race weekends too and help each other if they have an issue and pass on advise on setup and driving. You can get similar benefits to being in with a team by doing this without the cost
That's cheap. The teams I know of are 400-600 a day (which could also be for test day, not sure) so you're already at 1200-1800 for 3 days before entry fee's etc. 3-4k a weekend with a team in UK is quite normal, not a problem for many that do it.Don't forget that some teams are better than others too, there may be some that are good at keeping cars on track but aren't able to offer good advice on setup, therefore not making their customer faster, but by taking the burden of maintenance off for the weekend gives their driver the pleasure they need from their weekend off work.
The expense issue is the same as any other sport, some can afford / justify it and some can't, thats fine. This is a sport that constantly requires money to keep going, and is ultimately powered by parts and people. Unfortunately parts are getting dearer so businesses have to pass this on. Mechanics have to be paid to work the weekend, may need accommodation, definitely need food and fuel covered, and this isn't cheap. £250 per day from a business is fair to cover this. There seems to be a general concensus in the motor industry that mechanics should be cheap, but they are trying to earn fair money too, whilst working weekends and having to buy their own tools. Not many industries make their staff supply their own equipment!
I have friends that sub their racing by working part time for race teams at weekends, not only do they earn some money they learn more about club racing giving them the skills to run their own car too.
I also see individual clubbies buddying up with other racers at race weekends too and help each other if they have an issue and pass on advise on setup and driving. You can get similar benefits to being in with a team by doing this without the cost
Olivera said:
Is it true that arrive & drive in a modern GT3 car in say Blancpain series can be in the region of 50 grand per weekend? 
Be honest though ...... If you could, you would, wouldn't you??Slight tangent to the topic, but I've loved following the Michael Fassbender Road to LeMans series on YouTube. Proper "when I win the lottery" dream stuff, and really goes to show how much hard work goes into fulfilling these types of dreams. It's far more than simply bucket loads of cash!
mat205125 said:
Be honest though ...... If you could, you would, wouldn't you??
Slight tangent to the topic, but I've loved following the Michael Fassbender Road to LeMans series on YouTube. Proper "when I win the lottery" dream stuff, and really goes to show how much hard work goes into fulfilling these types of dreams. It's far more than simply bucket loads of cash!
true, but he had right 'diva' meltdown when he stuffed it into the wall. He reverted to type 'fawning actor' rather than racing driver.Slight tangent to the topic, but I've loved following the Michael Fassbender Road to LeMans series on YouTube. Proper "when I win the lottery" dream stuff, and really goes to show how much hard work goes into fulfilling these types of dreams. It's far more than simply bucket loads of cash!
mat205125 said:
Be honest though ...... If you could, you would, wouldn't you??
Slight tangent to the topic, but I've loved following the Michael Fassbender Road to LeMans series on YouTube. Proper "when I win the lottery" dream stuff, and really goes to show how much hard work goes into fulfilling these types of dreams. It's far more than simply bucket loads of cash!
I think the whole Fassbender story shows that you should have to start in slower cars and work your way up, regardless of how much money you’ve got.Slight tangent to the topic, but I've loved following the Michael Fassbender Road to LeMans series on YouTube. Proper "when I win the lottery" dream stuff, and really goes to show how much hard work goes into fulfilling these types of dreams. It's far more than simply bucket loads of cash!
Has he done a single race without crashing?
Dan BSCS said:
I think the whole Fassbender story shows that you should have to start in slower cars and work your way up, regardless of how much money you’ve got.
Has he done a single race without crashing?
IIRC he wasn't a complete novice when signing up to the Le Mans programme. Fairly certain he'd done some Ferrari club racing in the states.Has he done a single race without crashing?
But yes, start off slow and move to faster cars. Luckily for me I've been starting off in slow cars for 20 plus years now. I just need to make the transition to faster ones .
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
IIRC he wasn't a complete novice when signing up to the Le Mans programme. Fairly certain he'd done some Ferrari club racing in the states.
But yes, start off slow and move to faster cars. Luckily for me I've been starting off in slow cars for 20 plus years now. I just need to make the transition to faster ones .
Yes I’m aware of his racing history (which was clearly the bare minimum necessary to gain the licence level he required for WEC) but,But yes, start off slow and move to faster cars. Luckily for me I've been starting off in slow cars for 20 plus years now. I just need to make the transition to faster ones .
1. Ferraris aren’t exactly starting slow or beginners material
and
2. Judging by his results in Ferrari Challenge there wasn’t really any talent in the field for him to test himself against.
He is clearly massively underprepared and WAY out of his depth currently.
Edited by Dan BSCS on Friday 6th January 11:20
Dan BSCS said:
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
IIRC he wasn't a complete novice when signing up to the Le Mans programme. Fairly certain he'd done some Ferrari club racing in the states.
But yes, start off slow and move to faster cars. Luckily for me I've been starting off in slow cars for 20 plus years now. I just need to make the transition to faster ones .
Yes I’m aware of his racing history (which was clearly the bare minimum necessary to gain the licence level he required for WEC) but,But yes, start off slow and move to faster cars. Luckily for me I've been starting off in slow cars for 20 plus years now. I just need to make the transition to faster ones .
1. Ferraris aren’t exactly starting slow or beginners material
and
2. Judging by his results in Ferrari Challenge there wasn’t really any talent in the field for him to test himself against.
He is clearly massively underprepared and WAY out of his depth currently.
Edited by Dan BSCS on Friday 6th January 11:20
Dan BSCS said:
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
IIRC he wasn't a complete novice when signing up to the Le Mans programme. Fairly certain he'd done some Ferrari club racing in the states.
But yes, start off slow and move to faster cars. Luckily for me I've been starting off in slow cars for 20 plus years now. I just need to make the transition to faster ones .
Yes I’m aware of his racing history (which was clearly the bare minimum necessary to gain the licence level he required for WEC) but,But yes, start off slow and move to faster cars. Luckily for me I've been starting off in slow cars for 20 plus years now. I just need to make the transition to faster ones .
1. Ferraris aren’t exactly starting slow or beginners material
and
2. Judging by his results in Ferrari Challenge there wasn’t really any talent in the field for him to test himself against.
He is clearly massively underprepared and WAY out of his depth currently.
I've nothing but the upmost respect and unashamed jealously for what he's done, and to have done so in such a transparent public way too.
It's been a fascinating series to come along with for the ride, so to speak.
I'm positive that his experience and aptitude levels would not be dissimilar than a number of others on the LeMan grid for his race, or any number of races in the past or future ........ If I win the lottery, I'll do my own version of his journey, and you'll see what proper amateur looks like
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