Spriting: how modified is modified?
Discussion
I'm still trying to get my head around the rules for speed events.
What mods are allowed in the standard road going classes and then how far modified can you go in modified road before it becomes sports libre or something?
Something like this...
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1042495.htm
...is presumably too stripped out for the road going class, but it is essentially what it claims to be - an E30 325i - underneath?
I guess my concern is this: If I was to tweak a production-based car a little bit for track days, would I suddenly find myself up against purpose built race machinery running all sorts of exotic modifications at a club sprint or hillclimb?
What mods are allowed in the standard road going classes and then how far modified can you go in modified road before it becomes sports libre or something?
Something like this...
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1042495.htm
...is presumably too stripped out for the road going class, but it is essentially what it claims to be - an E30 325i - underneath?
I guess my concern is this: If I was to tweak a production-based car a little bit for track days, would I suddenly find myself up against purpose built race machinery running all sorts of exotic modifications at a club sprint or hillclimb?
thats ModProd from the pics.
MSA havent done a great job of making things clearer for the 2009 Blue Book, although im sure that the 2010 will beb a lot clearer (every scrute and club have been querying everything this year!!)
anyway, Production is essentially full interior, std suspesnion layout (no coilovers etc) no huge brakes, but doesnt need full cage.
imho very few cars actually fit into production properly as most petrol heads will have modified the brakes or suspension more than rules allow.
ModProd
covers the majority of cars out there (again imho before the pedantic police fire up the quattro!). you can modify brakes, suspension (cant change 'design', no dbl wishbones where a live axle used to live etc) engines (must have original type block, no engine transplants), modified gearboxes and diffs (std casing though). bodyshell can be stripped and lightened, will need a cage (6 point from memory), harnesses and race seat. stripped interior is fine. Dosent need to be road legal IF its got an MSA log Book and you can run any tyre inc slicks, but if it doesnt have an MSA log book, it has to run in road legal trim ie lights, road legal tyres (list 1A or 1B) and have full MOT, tax and insurance.
Sports Libre
really ends up in two camps, 'wrong engine' ie an old Ford with a zetec or vauxhall twink etc or spaceframed monsters which are more single seater in a frock than a road car.
To be honest its not that simple really, but near impossible until you nail down a make and car type, then you can be specific.
HTH
CNH
MSA havent done a great job of making things clearer for the 2009 Blue Book, although im sure that the 2010 will beb a lot clearer (every scrute and club have been querying everything this year!!)
anyway, Production is essentially full interior, std suspesnion layout (no coilovers etc) no huge brakes, but doesnt need full cage.
imho very few cars actually fit into production properly as most petrol heads will have modified the brakes or suspension more than rules allow.
ModProd
covers the majority of cars out there (again imho before the pedantic police fire up the quattro!). you can modify brakes, suspension (cant change 'design', no dbl wishbones where a live axle used to live etc) engines (must have original type block, no engine transplants), modified gearboxes and diffs (std casing though). bodyshell can be stripped and lightened, will need a cage (6 point from memory), harnesses and race seat. stripped interior is fine. Dosent need to be road legal IF its got an MSA log Book and you can run any tyre inc slicks, but if it doesnt have an MSA log book, it has to run in road legal trim ie lights, road legal tyres (list 1A or 1B) and have full MOT, tax and insurance.
Sports Libre
really ends up in two camps, 'wrong engine' ie an old Ford with a zetec or vauxhall twink etc or spaceframed monsters which are more single seater in a frock than a road car.
To be honest its not that simple really, but near impossible until you nail down a make and car type, then you can be specific.
HTH
CNH
Chris71 said:
I guess my concern is this: If I was to tweak a production-based car a little bit for track days, would I suddenly find myself up against purpose built race machinery running all sorts of exotic modifications at a club sprint or hillclimb?
good that you thought about this before purchasing, most people buy or build a car and then look for the calss it fits into, and as youd expect, its highly likely its not going to fit the class regs properly.it also depends on the championship or club you are going to compete with. many venues run their own championship, with all rounds at the same hill. Then they have a magical handicap system thats been developed thru the years that allows the singles setares to comepete with the boggo nissan micras etc. contrary to what some will tell you, these championships often work really well and give loads of fun and close competition even though the actual times on the day may be poles apart.
national classes. if you look to compete in say ModProd over 2000cc at various venues across the land, you will always come across cars built to the limit of the regs with great drivers that will beat you, but also you will beat the clubmen doing it for fun. Your call, budget and car choice dictate the competitiveness.
One make championships
often this is scored seperately to the classes on the day. MG Porsche Scimitar westfield etc etc often have cars splattered all across the entry list classes but are all competing together as far as their championships are concerned. This means that finishing 4th in class on the day, may well not bother you as youve actually taken max points in your own championship.
Horses for courses really, but a bit of research to find a championship first will show whether your choice of car will be competitive really
CNH
Between Production and Modified is Roadgoing, which has stuff like 'must retain original type of block and head, in original position', and 'must retain rear seats', and 'no modification of the bodywork above the centreline of the wheels'.
The important distinction is that Prod/Roadgoing you need an MOT and insurance for, and anything more than that needs an MSA logbook and a cage, external cutoff, etc.
Bizarrely, at Debden there was what looked like an unmodified E30 325 running in the Sports Libre class. Don't know the story behind that one.
The important distinction is that Prod/Roadgoing you need an MOT and insurance for, and anything more than that needs an MSA logbook and a cage, external cutoff, etc.
Bizarrely, at Debden there was what looked like an unmodified E30 325 running in the Sports Libre class. Don't know the story behind that one.
The technical regulations in section I are an unmitigated disaster at the moment as relates to roadgoing so it is impossible to answer your question with any certainty as in 2009 it will vary from event to event depending on the exact wording of their SRs and whether anyone actually reads the blue book. In 2010 it will be worse if nothing is done as most roadgoing cars will cease to be legal for that category.
First read I.70 to I.81 which defines the "Roadgoing production" categories, which is where you should be aiming for in a road legal car with the orginial engine.
Then read C(b).7. This is the really important one.
Then come back and answer where the very first modification to that BMW (lightened flywheel) is permitted in I.70 to I.81. It isn't. Nothing there says you can modify internal engine components and since C(b).7 says any modification not explicitly permitted is not allowed the lightened flywheel theoretically puts you into modprod, as do many of the other modifications on that car.
Fortunately I.68 which defines the categories is not mandatory, yet, so events can define their own technical regulations which allow modifications. It will be next year. This mess has to be sorted out by then or there will be a riot
What roadgoing production is intended to be would not fit that car as it has no interior. Put in carpets, door panels, window winders and rear seats and the other mods should all be OK as they are uprated versions of standard components rather than replacing it with something completely different. The only one I'm not sure about from the description is what has been done to make the camber adjustable (and perhaps tyres as I don't know what's on what list).
First read I.70 to I.81 which defines the "Roadgoing production" categories, which is where you should be aiming for in a road legal car with the orginial engine.
Then read C(b).7. This is the really important one.
Then come back and answer where the very first modification to that BMW (lightened flywheel) is permitted in I.70 to I.81. It isn't. Nothing there says you can modify internal engine components and since C(b).7 says any modification not explicitly permitted is not allowed the lightened flywheel theoretically puts you into modprod, as do many of the other modifications on that car.
Fortunately I.68 which defines the categories is not mandatory, yet, so events can define their own technical regulations which allow modifications. It will be next year. This mess has to be sorted out by then or there will be a riot
What roadgoing production is intended to be would not fit that car as it has no interior. Put in carpets, door panels, window winders and rear seats and the other mods should all be OK as they are uprated versions of standard components rather than replacing it with something completely different. The only one I'm not sure about from the description is what has been done to make the camber adjustable (and perhaps tyres as I don't know what's on what list).
Chris71
can you see we all rant over the MSA regs?;)
thats why im now in Sports Libre, theres F-all i cant do to the car now
not thought of having a go in your Tiv then? would suit a Roadgoing class as it stands? not fast or handles well (awaits crucifiction from other Tiv owners
) but give you a good feel for the events and how they run.
onamatapeia (sp)
loving the davrian
can you see we all rant over the MSA regs?;)
thats why im now in Sports Libre, theres F-all i cant do to the car now
not thought of having a go in your Tiv then? would suit a Roadgoing class as it stands? not fast or handles well (awaits crucifiction from other Tiv owners
) but give you a good feel for the events and how they run.onamatapeia (sp)
loving the davrian
Edited by CNHSS1 on Tuesday 19th May 12:52
CNHSS1 said:
Not thought of having a go in your Tiv then? would suit a Roadgoing class as it stands? not fast or handles well (awaits crucifiction from other Tiv owners ) but give you a good feel for the events and how they run.
Actually I've thought about it a lot and it was doing track days and the Carlimits activity days (where they run a sort of sprint course) in it that encouraged me to look at sprinting. Has to be said it actually handles very well and proves quicker than you might expect, but there are two things that put me off. First are the resale implications of a car that's been regularly used on track (I wouldn't have a problem with it, but plenty of people seem to get funny) and second is the cost of maintaining it. ) but give you a good feel for the events and how they run.I realise sprinting itself is reasonably light on the car, but the idea is to have something which acts as a general track day toy as well, so it could rack up quite a lot of miles. And a TVR, although cheaper than you'd think, surely can't match a Caterfield or an MX5 for running costs?
It's a shame, because as a road car I'd keep the TVR every time for its sense of occasion, but I've found I get more enjoyment out of driving on the track than I do on the conjested roads of the South East.
Whatever I get (or even if I stick with the TVR) the problem is getting something that's okay to drive to the track, has a few tweaks like adjustable suspension for when I get there, and yet doesn't get pushed into an uncompetitive class. An MX5 quite appeals for the simplicity and cost, but as standard it'd be in 'up to 2000cc production' against things like Civic Type Rs if not Elises! God only knows where it goes with a supercharger...
If it was just a sprint car I'd go for a '7 clone or a Fisher Fury/Stylus as the kit car class seems to be quite active near me (Herts/Essex type area) and I may still do so, but something like a Ginetta G27, an MX5 or possibly the TVR would be better for occasional road use.
I know I won't be competitive in my first year of sprinting (if ever
), but it would be nice to have something which had the potential to be vaguely competitive if I ever reached the stage where I was!Sorry to waffle, you get the idea...
onomatopoeia said:
Chris71 said:
God only knows where it goes with a supercharger...
In sprints and hills you multiply the capacity by 1.4 for forced induction.Rotary and diesel engines are a whole other story.
Chris,
was very tongue in cheek as i know you, like me, are a TVR 'S' series owner.
i have to say looking at the prices of tatty S's these days you could pick up one for track use pretty cheaply (and keep your tidy version). the suspension and brakes are cheap to upgrade (polys, shocks and ex sierra bits) as is an LSD. the engines a bit more expensive to tune for substantial power increases without a blower (which could affect your class choice), but i would have thought the running costs would be pretty low as the componentry is hardly exotic.
im not sure how cheap/competitive an MX5 would be to be honest for sprints/hills. Tuning stuff always has the 'jap-tax' where all the goodies are from HKS, Greddy, Apexi etc and all seem to cost the earth. The base cars do rust too. like the Tiv chunks of power increase are even bigger chunks of cash or addition of a blower which will usually see you into Sports Libre.
7 Types (coffin dodgems) does cover a huge range of costs and performance. Often the 5-6K westy/striker etc are confused with 15-25k caterhams by the layman, but undoubtedly due to their low weight compared to a '5 or Tiv, it will be difficult to go faster on the day, albeit not necessarily in class.
in my opinion, the first season, the time comes mainly from the driver, so the car being ultra competitive isnt that important, but as youve found out you will really enjoy yourself. after that i suspect you will have seen lots of cars competing and will have made your choice.
most guys i speak to that want to start are in the same boat as you. in time half will end up with a dedicated car for hills/sprints and a trailer to drag it around the country. Some will be happy to stick in the roadgoing classes and spend their budget on doing events rather than developing the car (good logic really...) and a few will be lost to other motorsport/basket weaving/obeying 'Er Indoors etc etc.
was very tongue in cheek as i know you, like me, are a TVR 'S' series owner.
i have to say looking at the prices of tatty S's these days you could pick up one for track use pretty cheaply (and keep your tidy version). the suspension and brakes are cheap to upgrade (polys, shocks and ex sierra bits) as is an LSD. the engines a bit more expensive to tune for substantial power increases without a blower (which could affect your class choice), but i would have thought the running costs would be pretty low as the componentry is hardly exotic.
im not sure how cheap/competitive an MX5 would be to be honest for sprints/hills. Tuning stuff always has the 'jap-tax' where all the goodies are from HKS, Greddy, Apexi etc and all seem to cost the earth. The base cars do rust too. like the Tiv chunks of power increase are even bigger chunks of cash or addition of a blower which will usually see you into Sports Libre.
7 Types (coffin dodgems) does cover a huge range of costs and performance. Often the 5-6K westy/striker etc are confused with 15-25k caterhams by the layman, but undoubtedly due to their low weight compared to a '5 or Tiv, it will be difficult to go faster on the day, albeit not necessarily in class.
in my opinion, the first season, the time comes mainly from the driver, so the car being ultra competitive isnt that important, but as youve found out you will really enjoy yourself. after that i suspect you will have seen lots of cars competing and will have made your choice.
most guys i speak to that want to start are in the same boat as you. in time half will end up with a dedicated car for hills/sprints and a trailer to drag it around the country. Some will be happy to stick in the roadgoing classes and spend their budget on doing events rather than developing the car (good logic really...) and a few will be lost to other motorsport/basket weaving/obeying 'Er Indoors etc etc.
for some classes forced induction can be added, but must keep the car within its existing engine capacity class. if the cars currently in the up to 2000cc class, with the equivalency itll be 2.6 or whatever and thus out of class and into Sports Libre.
Mark Waldrons carbon elise from a few years ago, used a sleeved down K series to 1396cc so that with the blower still ran in the up to 2000cc ModProd iirc
Mark Waldrons carbon elise from a few years ago, used a sleeved down K series to 1396cc so that with the blower still ran in the up to 2000cc ModProd iirc
CNHSS1 said:
Was very tongue in cheek as i know you, like me, are a TVR 'S' series owner ...i have to say looking at the prices of tatty S's these days you could pick up one for track use pretty cheaply (and keep your tidy version).
I knew I recognised the name from somewhere. Actually, on a TVR note, I've been keeping half an eye out for an ex-Tasmin Challenge car, but like you say a tatty S would be another possibility. I suspect the running costs are still quite different to, say, a standard Zetec-engined Sylva Striker though.
In reality I suspect some of it will be a case of what looks like a good deal with a cage and so on already installed when I've got space in the garage. Unfortunately the S has to go first so it's going up for sale when it returns from its service next week. Of course, the market being what it is, I might end up rethinking the decision to part with it!
ex Tasmin would be a good idea, a friend of one of our compies bought one, about 2.5k and ready to rock with all the work done (let some other poor sod do all the hard graft and take the depreciation hit).
ultimately its down to what you want to compete in. in terms of quickest times on the day, the 7 Types take some beating, especially the bike engined ones as you dont even need a jack they are that light! so always gonna be quick. For me they are a it souless as even though ive been side by side in the paddock with many of them for years, i still cant tell a Locost from a westy from a caterham, much to the indignance of the owners.
zetec stryker is a good shout, a firend runs a stryker with toyota engine and its pretty competitive at clubmen level without being a fortune
something like a Davrian, mini, even bike engined 600c-1100cc singles seater or mallock (prices regularly from 5k) are more appealing to me, even though they may not be as 'competitve' nationally, but may be very competitive in their own championship.
as a wise sage once said to me, its not how much you spend, but the grins per quid that proves a cars worth.
ultimately its down to what you want to compete in. in terms of quickest times on the day, the 7 Types take some beating, especially the bike engined ones as you dont even need a jack they are that light! so always gonna be quick. For me they are a it souless as even though ive been side by side in the paddock with many of them for years, i still cant tell a Locost from a westy from a caterham, much to the indignance of the owners.
zetec stryker is a good shout, a firend runs a stryker with toyota engine and its pretty competitive at clubmen level without being a fortune
something like a Davrian, mini, even bike engined 600c-1100cc singles seater or mallock (prices regularly from 5k) are more appealing to me, even though they may not be as 'competitve' nationally, but may be very competitive in their own championship.
as a wise sage once said to me, its not how much you spend, but the grins per quid that proves a cars worth.
Chris71 said:
CNHSS1 said:
Was very tongue in cheek as i know you, like me, are a TVR 'S' series owner ...i have to say looking at the prices of tatty S's these days you could pick up one for track use pretty cheaply (and keep your tidy version).
I knew I recognised the name from somewhere. Actually, on a TVR note, I've been keeping half an eye out for an ex-Tasmin Challenge car,
Will we see you in the TVRCC Speed Championship, then?
"Induction is free ... but must remain in the original capacity class as the original car or manufacturers specified option for the model and engine" it says (I.77), you can turbocharge in roadgoing production if you want to.
With my CoC hat on I would not look too closely at forced induction moving a car out of its class and if anyone mentions it I would suggest to the scrutineers that they shouldn't either. If they did I'd amalgamate the two classes to solve the problem.
The Davrian is a huge amount of fun, when it works. A one litre car running an engine designed in the 1950s to pump water on fire engines is always going to struggle in a 1400cc class though, especially on hills or where there are a lot of low speed turns followed by bursts of acceleration on the flat. Nice open airfields with fast flowing corners are what it likes.
CNHSS1 said:
for some classes forced induction can be added, but must keep the car within its existing engine capacity class. if the cars currently in the up to 2000cc class, with the equivalency itll be 2.6 or whatever and thus out of class and into Sports Libre.
Mark Waldrons carbon elise from a few years ago, used a sleeved down K series to 1396cc so that with the blower still ran in the up to 2000cc ModProd iirc
Now why is this silly? Classes are up to the organisers within the categories, the capacity splits are not in the blue book. If the class is "roadgoing production 1900cc to 2900cc" then you can turbocharge a 1998cc car (to make 2797cc equivalent) and remain in your class. If the capacity splits are at 1800cc and 2600cc you can't and wind up where - libre? How does that work? (rhetorical question)Mark Waldrons carbon elise from a few years ago, used a sleeved down K series to 1396cc so that with the blower still ran in the up to 2000cc ModProd iirc
With my CoC hat on I would not look too closely at forced induction moving a car out of its class and if anyone mentions it I would suggest to the scrutineers that they shouldn't either. If they did I'd amalgamate the two classes to solve the problem
.The Davrian is a huge amount of fun, when it works. A one litre car running an engine designed in the 1950s to pump water on fire engines is always going to struggle in a 1400cc class though, especially on hills or where there are a lot of low speed turns followed by bursts of acceleration on the flat. Nice open airfields with fast flowing corners are what it likes.
Zumbruk said:
Will we see you in the TVRCC Speed Championship, then?
If I still have a TVR without a doubt, yes. Probably only the localish ones though as I can't really afford a trip up to Knockhill or anything!I've reality, I fell in love with the TVR as a road car and given the money I would always have at least one tiv in the garage, but I'm not sure I could afford to use one as a track car. We shall see...
only a mere competitor, but im sure you appreciate the current MSA 'smoke and mirrors' that are the regs are difficult for us to see through. this isnt a pop at scrutes or CofCs (i wouldnt dare lol) but theres so much that needs a clarification from someone official rather than being clear, and when those asked give differeing opinions, that makes matters worse.
as you say the bLue Book doesmt set capacity limits, but championships do, so it was me this time that wasnt clear in my wording (double standards eh? lol)
i actually think that next years Blue book will be infinitely better and that this years pain for competitors, offcials and the MSA alike will have been worth it in the long run.
I have on occasion come across the Imp engined club/class, and they seem a friendly, nutty bunch! a few years ago at Shelsley when it chucked it down just before the runs, they all had a gentlemens agreement to stay on slicks as it would be more 'fun' in the pouring rain!!. Eccentric but grins from ear to ear in top paddock (and they all survived too!)
as you say the bLue Book doesmt set capacity limits, but championships do, so it was me this time that wasnt clear in my wording (double standards eh? lol)
i actually think that next years Blue book will be infinitely better and that this years pain for competitors, offcials and the MSA alike will have been worth it in the long run.
I have on occasion come across the Imp engined club/class, and they seem a friendly, nutty bunch! a few years ago at Shelsley when it chucked it down just before the runs, they all had a gentlemens agreement to stay on slicks as it would be more 'fun' in the pouring rain!!. Eccentric but grins from ear to ear in top paddock (and they all survived too!)
CNHSS1 said:
only a mere competitor, but im sure you appreciate the current MSA 'smoke and mirrors' that are the regs are difficult for us to see through. this isnt a pop at scrutes or CofCs (i wouldnt dare lol) but theres so much that needs a clarification from someone official rather than being clear, and when those asked give differeing opinions, that makes matters worse.
I heard different interpretations of the book at the MSA officials seminar I attended at the start of the year and I completely agree with you. I know people on the MSA's sprint & hill sub-committee and speed events committee that completely agree with you, I bend one of them's ear about all this often enough . Consequently I know efforts are being made to sort it out.
Chris71 said:
Zumbruk said:
Will we see you in the TVRCC Speed Championship, then?
If I still have a TVR without a doubt, yes. Probably only the localish ones though as I can't really afford a trip up to Knockhill or anything!I've reality, I fell in love with the TVR as a road car and given the money I would always have at least one tiv in the garage, but I'm not sure I could afford to use one as a track car. We shall see...
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