Bits to preo Saxo VTR for Stock Hatch or similar - what?
Discussion
The Lotus is getting MoT'd this week, then will be up for sale and the current plan is to pick up a Saxo VTR to play with. I had a brand new one in 2003 and loved it, they're cheap now and seem to be the vehicle of choice for Stock Hatch. Tin Tops looks like it could be fun too, I also have a mate or two who would be interested in sharing the drive which would help with costs.
What I want to end up with is a car that's fairly flexible, can be used on the road if I have to as well as for track days and maybe some racing too.
With that in mind what kind of bits do I need to budget for? 6 point bolt in cage, seat(s), harness(es), tyres, pads etc are a given but what about suspension? What kind of kit do I need? Which bits can be replaced with standard parts (wishbones, balljoints, bearings etc) and what needs to be replaced?
There are a lot of modded cars out there but most have been lowered by winding the torsion bars back 2 notches and have nasty G-Max kit on the front end so I'm thinking a standard car would be best to start with.
Any other tips? Anyone on here running a similar car?
What I want to end up with is a car that's fairly flexible, can be used on the road if I have to as well as for track days and maybe some racing too.
With that in mind what kind of bits do I need to budget for? 6 point bolt in cage, seat(s), harness(es), tyres, pads etc are a given but what about suspension? What kind of kit do I need? Which bits can be replaced with standard parts (wishbones, balljoints, bearings etc) and what needs to be replaced?
There are a lot of modded cars out there but most have been lowered by winding the torsion bars back 2 notches and have nasty G-Max kit on the front end so I'm thinking a standard car would be best to start with.
Any other tips? Anyone on here running a similar car?
I would start with the rule book for your chosen series and then look to see if you can find a ready prepared car for sale.
Even tweaking a tired racecar will be cheaper and less time consuming than starting from scratch. If you do decide to go from scratch I would pick a stock car so you can put all new componenets on and be sure that the mods done are to a high standard.
Even tweaking a tired racecar will be cheaper and less time consuming than starting from scratch. If you do decide to go from scratch I would pick a stock car so you can put all new componenets on and be sure that the mods done are to a high standard.
I've had a look at the regs but was more interested in the best suspension bits (Leda, Gaz?) to go for, along with anything else to look for.
As for buying a pre-built car, I know it would be cheaper but firstly part of the challenge for me would be building the car and doing the work. Secondly, there aren't really any sensibly priced Saxos out there, if I was after an XR2 then it would be a no brainer to buy pre-built but most Saxos seem to be big budget cars and cost £5k or so.
As for buying a pre-built car, I know it would be cheaper but firstly part of the challenge for me would be building the car and doing the work. Secondly, there aren't really any sensibly priced Saxos out there, if I was after an XR2 then it would be a no brainer to buy pre-built but most Saxos seem to be big budget cars and cost £5k or so.
if you are going to build from scratch and you want to be competitive, expect to spend nearer to 10k
Go and talk to the people on the stockhatch forum
http://www.phil-law.co.uk they are a good bunch and nearly all race.
or maybe contact Stockhatcher on here. He races 106 Rallye and I know it cost him a lot more than 5k to buy.
Peugeot 205's and XR2s can be bought ready to race for 1500 - 2000 but will only get you into the mid field.
Go and talk to the people on the stockhatch forum
http://www.phil-law.co.uk they are a good bunch and nearly all race.
or maybe contact Stockhatcher on here. He races 106 Rallye and I know it cost him a lot more than 5k to buy.
Peugeot 205's and XR2s can be bought ready to race for 1500 - 2000 but will only get you into the mid field.
orange n blue said:
if you are going to build from scratch and you want to be competitive, expect to spend nearer to 10k
Go and talk to the people on the stockhatch forum
http://www.phil-law.co.uk they are a good bunch and nearly all race.
or maybe contact Stockhatcher on here. He races 106 Rallye and I know it cost him a lot more than 5k to buy.
Peugeot 205's and XR2s can be bought ready to race for 1500 - 2000 but will only get you into the mid field.
But 205s & XR2s will be perfectly competitive in Class C of CSCC Tin Tops & all for very little outlay and far more track time.Go and talk to the people on the stockhatch forum
http://www.phil-law.co.uk they are a good bunch and nearly all race.
or maybe contact Stockhatcher on here. He races 106 Rallye and I know it cost him a lot more than 5k to buy.
Peugeot 205's and XR2s can be bought ready to race for 1500 - 2000 but will only get you into the mid field.
Edited by andy97 on Monday 3rd August 22:27
I admire your enthusiasm in wanting to build a racing car that you can share with your mates and also drive to and from the track.
Unfortunately it is highly unlikely that you would go a seasons racing without incurring any significant damage (especially in Stock Hatch) which would leave you in a spot of bother getting home. Also how would you share the driving once you have the bug?
I would presonally spend the money buying/building a car and a trailer, and trying a few track days before setting on your sites on a seasons racing. If you build a relatively standard hatch back then it will be eligible in many tin top series.
Unfortunately it is highly unlikely that you would go a seasons racing without incurring any significant damage (especially in Stock Hatch) which would leave you in a spot of bother getting home. Also how would you share the driving once you have the bug?
I would presonally spend the money buying/building a car and a trailer, and trying a few track days before setting on your sites on a seasons racing. If you build a relatively standard hatch back then it will be eligible in many tin top series.
Coxyjunior said:
Also how would you share the driving once you have the bug?
CSCC Tin Tops are 40 min races or one or two drivers, with a compulsory pit stop for all so sharing a car (and costs) is a definate possibility and is good fun. There is also not much panel bashing in CSCC as well. Accidents do happen but driving standards are ploiced strongly. Persistent offenders are not invited! At every CSCC meeting there is also a 15/20 min "Sports Vs Saloon" allcomers race and you can race in that for just £90 if you have raced previously in the day. One person could race in this at one meeting & the other at the next. Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 4th August 09:58
Have a look at the classifieds on the 750motor club website.
Other things you'll need to consider fitting to the car which all add up are;
Fire extinguisher
MSA Rain light
External ignition switches
Lightweight fuel cell + pump
Bonnet pins
and loads of little things that soon add up! I know the pre-prepped route is generally advisable, and i would normally suggest that, however if you can do the work yourself it may be better as you can get a road legal VTS/VTR for £400 these days.
Other things you'll need to consider fitting to the car which all add up are;
Fire extinguisher
MSA Rain light
External ignition switches
Lightweight fuel cell + pump
Bonnet pins
and loads of little things that soon add up! I know the pre-prepped route is generally advisable, and i would normally suggest that, however if you can do the work yourself it may be better as you can get a road legal VTS/VTR for £400 these days.
Coxyjunior said:
I admire your enthusiasm in wanting to build a racing car that you can share with your mates and also drive to and from the track.
Unfortunately it is highly unlikely that you would go a seasons racing without incurring any significant damage (especially in Stock Hatch) which would leave you in a spot of bother getting home. Also how would you share the driving once you have the bug?
I would presonally spend the money buying/building a car and a trailer, and trying a few track days before setting on your sites on a seasons racing. If you build a relatively standard hatch back then it will be eligible in many tin top series.
I have a tow car already and would buy a trailer, I have no intention of driving a car to and from races as the last thing I want is to be left stranded at Oulton Park after sticking the car into a barrier!Unfortunately it is highly unlikely that you would go a seasons racing without incurring any significant damage (especially in Stock Hatch) which would leave you in a spot of bother getting home. Also how would you share the driving once you have the bug?
I would presonally spend the money buying/building a car and a trailer, and trying a few track days before setting on your sites on a seasons racing. If you build a relatively standard hatch back then it will be eligible in many tin top series.
I can do the majority of the prep work myself and I'm not expecting to be running at the front of any series, it's just a bit of fun really.
The reason I'm looking at Stock Hatch regs is because they seem the stictest of the classes it could potentially run in so if the car is eligable for that but all it'll need is potentially a change of tyres to be eligable for other series.
The think that's really tempting me is the fact Saxos are very cheap to buy now, parts are easily available and it should be fairly cost effective to prep one to an average standard rather than buying a pre-built car. I don't have the talent to win races so I need to improve my driving before I go spending huge amounts of cash to make the car 0.2 seconds a lap quicker!
Within the regs, what would you need to put on the car to make it front running?
From the race results the saxo is the car to have, why? As far as I knew it was a 106 underneath with different panels - what makes them that bit quicker?
Shocks? Koni/leda/spax - all much of a muchness except revalving them to personal preference?
Engines? What constitutes the regs definition of blueprinting?
Not many years ago you could put a 205 near the front but now it's all the saxo's/106's - is that because all the good 205's got smashed up and uneconomical to repair and spares are rarer?
From the race results the saxo is the car to have, why? As far as I knew it was a 106 underneath with different panels - what makes them that bit quicker?
Shocks? Koni/leda/spax - all much of a muchness except revalving them to personal preference?
Engines? What constitutes the regs definition of blueprinting?
Not many years ago you could put a 205 near the front but now it's all the saxo's/106's - is that because all the good 205's got smashed up and uneconomical to repair and spares are rarer?
The Saxo is the car to have because they're cheap and plentiful to buy, and they do a 'hot' version with a 1.6 litre 8 valve engine. The only Peugeot that's similar is the ph2 106 Rallye which is much rarer and a lot more expensive to buy so everyone goes for the Saxo. Because of the restrictive nature of the regs (1.6 8v or 1.4 16v) there aren't many other options which can be made light enough to get competitive. I guess an MG ZR 105 or Clio 1.4 16v could work but they cost more and are heavier than the Saxo which runs a minimum weight of 910kg.
Having said all that they seem to have allowed the C2 VTS to enter which has a 1.6 16v engine, as is the Ford SportKa so maybe they've changed the regs to allow more new cars to enter.
Having said all that they seem to have allowed the C2 VTS to enter which has a 1.6 16v engine, as is the Ford SportKa so maybe they've changed the regs to allow more new cars to enter.
Regional said:
Within the regs, what would you need to put on the car to make it front running?
.
.
.
.
Engines? What constitutes the regs definition of blueprinting?
If the factory tolerance on the bore is 88mm +/- 1.5mm, you run with a bore that is 89.499mm diameter. If a factory piston should have been 120g +/- 2.5g, yours will all weigh 117.501g .... Apply the same principle to any relevant dimensions or tolerances that might give you a tiny performance edge, or simply reduce friction losses. .
.
.
.
Engines? What constitutes the regs definition of blueprinting?
Get along to a stock hatch race, walk around the paddock and listen to the engines running. Most people competing on a budget will have changed the oil and filter on their donor engine, and it will sit in the car for many seasons. Now find the front running cars, and listen to them running ... Note how well they tick over at low revs for a "factory" engine, and how freely they rev.
In many ways it can be easier (and even cheaper) to build a front running car with more relaxed engine regs than the tightly regulated forumlae ......... especially if you are honest and stay inside the regs
Thanks - that's what I thought.
I used to race Alfa's and my engine had a lot of time spent on it weighing all the components we had, choosing the lightest and then balanced everything - it was a superb engine and one of the strongest in a straight line (in my class).
Where would I find the factory tolerances?
Is the contact as bad as i'm led to believe?
When I was in the Alfa championship I would consider myself to have had a bad race if my wing mirrors had not been folded in by another car, lol
I consider that to be close racing but if the car is in need of new doors every race i'm not sure I want to get involved, can't afford the paint!
I used to race Alfa's and my engine had a lot of time spent on it weighing all the components we had, choosing the lightest and then balanced everything - it was a superb engine and one of the strongest in a straight line (in my class).
Where would I find the factory tolerances?
Is the contact as bad as i'm led to believe?
When I was in the Alfa championship I would consider myself to have had a bad race if my wing mirrors had not been folded in by another car, lol
I consider that to be close racing but if the car is in need of new doors every race i'm not sure I want to get involved, can't afford the paint!
Stock hatch is great fun racing, good bunch of people, and ready built cars can be bought for very little money (compared to building one) I'd recommend it.
There is a lot of un-necessary contact, with cars getting damaged at most rounds (less so at the front) so be prepared for body repairs.
To take a mid grid saxo and build it into a front running saxo you'd ideally need a set of AST suspension then a pro' built engine with a mappable ecu fitted, with lots of time spent on the rolling road and then have new tyres available for each event.
But you can have plenty of fun without trying to be at the front, so without spending a fortune you can be mid grid and there are always people to race with throughout the grid (big grids, usually 60+ cars entered split into two heats and a final).
For sale section from the stock hatch forum is here, usually a few cars come up at end of season;
http://www.phil-law.co.uk/pl/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi...
There is a lot of un-necessary contact, with cars getting damaged at most rounds (less so at the front) so be prepared for body repairs.
To take a mid grid saxo and build it into a front running saxo you'd ideally need a set of AST suspension then a pro' built engine with a mappable ecu fitted, with lots of time spent on the rolling road and then have new tyres available for each event.
But you can have plenty of fun without trying to be at the front, so without spending a fortune you can be mid grid and there are always people to race with throughout the grid (big grids, usually 60+ cars entered split into two heats and a final).
For sale section from the stock hatch forum is here, usually a few cars come up at end of season;
http://www.phil-law.co.uk/pl/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi...
What is the advantage of having AST shocks over... say Koni adjustables (single) and having them revalved to my spec?
Engine wouldn't be a problem, that's what we do anyway (my father runs a race prep firm).
I'm just trying to gather an idea on what it takes to be competitive, Alfa's are dying out so I don't think thats an option when I do come back.
Do the tyres go off that quickly?
Engine wouldn't be a problem, that's what we do anyway (my father runs a race prep firm).
I'm just trying to gather an idea on what it takes to be competitive, Alfa's are dying out so I don't think thats an option when I do come back.
Do the tyres go off that quickly?
rallycross said:
There is a lot of un-necessary contact, with cars getting damaged at most rounds (less so at the front) so be prepared for body repairs.
To take a mid grid saxo and build it into a front running saxo you'd ideally need a set of AST suspension then a pro' built engine with a mappable ecu fitted, with lots of time spent on the rolling road and then have new tyres available for each event.
You haven't sold it to me anyway! I'll stick with CSCC Tin Tops and get loads of track time for my money, a very low annual repair bill, no real need to visit a rolling road very often & tyres that last 4-6 meetings. Each to their own.To take a mid grid saxo and build it into a front running saxo you'd ideally need a set of AST suspension then a pro' built engine with a mappable ecu fitted, with lots of time spent on the rolling road and then have new tyres available for each event.
In terms of suspension for a race Saxo i'd look at either AST or GAZ Gold. I've been trying to find out for ages what people are using on the stock hatch Saxos/106s and it seems to be one of these two. AST seem to be the bench mark but are nearly half the price again of the Gaz setup. Also the SAXMAX race cars use Gaz so it should be up to the task.
Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff