Hill climbing? Or what other forms of cheap motorsport?
Discussion
Hello chaps,
I was just wondering if anyone would be able to give me a rough idea on costings for hill climbing/sprinting, say an average event? Or even better, a season? A friend and I have just purchased a Mk2 Escort and are planning to get into motorsport on a budget; are we going the right way about it? Any tips?
We don't have a fortune to spend, but we'd love to drive in a competitive environment. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Thanks in advance,
James
I was just wondering if anyone would be able to give me a rough idea on costings for hill climbing/sprinting, say an average event? Or even better, a season? A friend and I have just purchased a Mk2 Escort and are planning to get into motorsport on a budget; are we going the right way about it? Any tips?
We don't have a fortune to spend, but we'd love to drive in a competitive environment. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Thanks in advance,
James
Hi James,
I've just moved on to racing after two years sprinting and it's an excellent start to competitive driving. You won't get as much track time as a track day but you do get to compete, drive as hard as you want, and, in some ways this will actually keep your costs down as you'll use less tyres, fuel, brakes etc. Also, you can double drive further splitting costs.
To get started you'll need to get a speed licence and medical:
http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.a...
And, in terms of car prep, if you're running in the road going class then there is practically nothing you need to do for this although some basic safety gear is obviously to be encouraged, especially in an older car.
Since you're in Kent I'd recommend the TWMC All Circuit series which is based mostly at Lydden with rounds at Brands and Goodwood:
http://www.twmc.org.uk/
Entry fees will be in the region of £80 at Lydden, probably double that at Brands and Goodwood. You wouldn't need to score in every round though to compete in the overall championship.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Chris
I've just moved on to racing after two years sprinting and it's an excellent start to competitive driving. You won't get as much track time as a track day but you do get to compete, drive as hard as you want, and, in some ways this will actually keep your costs down as you'll use less tyres, fuel, brakes etc. Also, you can double drive further splitting costs.
To get started you'll need to get a speed licence and medical:
http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.a...
And, in terms of car prep, if you're running in the road going class then there is practically nothing you need to do for this although some basic safety gear is obviously to be encouraged, especially in an older car.
Since you're in Kent I'd recommend the TWMC All Circuit series which is based mostly at Lydden with rounds at Brands and Goodwood:
http://www.twmc.org.uk/
Entry fees will be in the region of £80 at Lydden, probably double that at Brands and Goodwood. You wouldn't need to score in every round though to compete in the overall championship.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Chris
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the prompt response. What you say makes a lot of sense, especially as we're both still quite young (early twenties), so funding isn't huge. We'll get ourselves joined up the TWMC in the meantime and go from there, maybe attend a few events to get the gist of things?
We hope to enter the Mk2 into the Modified Production Class, as we've got a Safety Devices cage being fitted, a fuel cell, and a 2-litre Pinto on the way along with a few other bits. Any insider tips for a hill climb/sprint novice such as myself? I've done the odd track day, but no actual competition.
£80 for Lydden sounds quite reasonable. I take it the day is pretty friendly and relaxed (within reason)? What would you suggest starting with as an event? I've been to Goodwood before, but I'm wondering if that might be a bit quick for our first outing.
Another question is we're looking at running a pair of bucket seats and harnesses in the Mk2, do these need to be FIA/MSA approved?
Many thanks,
James
Ps. I'll try and get a picture of the Mk2 up soon.
Thanks for the prompt response. What you say makes a lot of sense, especially as we're both still quite young (early twenties), so funding isn't huge. We'll get ourselves joined up the TWMC in the meantime and go from there, maybe attend a few events to get the gist of things?
We hope to enter the Mk2 into the Modified Production Class, as we've got a Safety Devices cage being fitted, a fuel cell, and a 2-litre Pinto on the way along with a few other bits. Any insider tips for a hill climb/sprint novice such as myself? I've done the odd track day, but no actual competition.
£80 for Lydden sounds quite reasonable. I take it the day is pretty friendly and relaxed (within reason)? What would you suggest starting with as an event? I've been to Goodwood before, but I'm wondering if that might be a bit quick for our first outing.
Another question is we're looking at running a pair of bucket seats and harnesses in the Mk2, do these need to be FIA/MSA approved?
Many thanks,
James
Ps. I'll try and get a picture of the Mk2 up soon.
rfjames said:
We'll get ourselves joined up the TWMC in the meantime and go from there, maybe attend a few events to get the gist of things?
Marshal an event or two - gives you a feel for how they run and events can't run at all if they aren't adequately manned.rfjames said:
We hope to enter the Mk2 into the Modified Production Class, as we've got a Safety Devices cage being fitted, a fuel cell, and a 2-litre Pinto on the way along with a few other bits. Any insider tips for a hill climb/sprint novice such as myself? I've done the odd track day, but no actual competition.
In modprod you will be running against stuff on slicks so you may wish to buy some. However since you are buying cages and fuel cells you are well out of budget motorsport already. You will also be wanting a plumbed in extinguisher and to give section I of the blue book a very thorough read to look at the other safety requirements for modprod. I'm assuming Ford built a production Escort with that body and a Pinto engine, else you will be in sports libre which has different safety requirements again.You will need an MSA logbook in modprod. Talk to a scrutineer and they will inspect the car and issue one. That said I think mine has been looked at once at an event.
rfjames said:
Another question is we're looking at running a pair of bucket seats and harnesses in the Mk2, do these need to be FIA/MSA approved?
Not in sprints and hills.BTW you do not normally need a medical for a comp licence to do sprints and hills.
rfjames said:
Any insider tips for a hill climb/sprint novice such as myself? I've done the odd track day, but no actual competition.
Just play yourself into it gently. Worst thing you can do is damage your car and end your day, or even your season early. With your car you will find yuorself up against quicker machinery, just don't worry about that and you can gauge your progress against the stopwatch and, if you're double driving, each other.
The TWMC events can be quite hectic for double drivers as they're mostly morning only events, so get there early and be organised, nothing worse than running round like a loon just before jumping in your car to do a run.
rfjames said:
£80 for Lydden sounds quite reasonable. I take it the day is pretty friendly and relaxed (within reason)? What would you suggest starting with as an event? I've been to Goodwood before, but I'm wondering if that might be a bit quick for our first outing.
Very friendly, and you'll find it's your fellow competitors that help you out the most - I've had the guy I was beating take the driveshaft off his own car so I could get another run in before now!Lydden is a good little track, great place to start though it can still bite if you take liberties. Goodwood even more so, very daunting and obviously much more scope for big damage due to the higher speeds.
If you get yourself to one of the events, you'll be able to chat to the scrutineer who will be able to answer all your specific questions, even get your car sound checked (rather than pay your money and get turned away at your first event for being too loud).
Another advantage of sprints over hillclimbs is that you are far less likely to hit some scenery if you go off (imo). And not even sure of that many hillclimb venues in the SE, we're far better served by sprints.
rfjames said:
Thanks for the prompt response. What you say makes a lot of sense, especially as we're both still quite young (early twenties), so funding isn't huge. We'll get ourselves joined up the TWMC in the meantime and go from there, maybe attend a few events to get the gist of things?
Just to add to some excellent advice so far, yes you should get down there to see and be seen.First, you'll get the swing of things - knowing the process and times (sign-on, scrutineering, etc.) removes a lot of panic first time.
Second, you can find your opposition. I can't comment on the friendlines of Lydden sprinters, but I'm sure they'll welcome another couple of heads around. Pick up a few email addresses, offer to spanner/stopwatch/get coffee and you'll be most welcome to return. Come first event, you've got friends for advice (and quite possibly parts & labour).
Thanks for the fantastic advice chaps, this is a huge help. I think I'll get my friend and I along to an event asap and we'll get chatting with people and try and lend a hand, if possible. The more we can learn the better really, as we're both keen to have fun and compete.
Okay, so I should see a scrutineer at the event for a MSA logbook, or is this something that has to be done beforehand? I've tried to make sure most of the aftermarket parts we've purchased meet the MSA/FIA approval. Fortunately, the Mk2 Escort RS2000 came with a 2-litre Pinto, so I believe we can run this engine in the ModProd class? This is providing we don't go above the 2,000cc bracket, as this will push us up a grouping, I believe?
I think sprinting is going to be our main focus, although we would like to have a play at places such as Prescott Hill and Shelsey Walsh... But we best not run before we can walk.
Regarding the medical, is this required for just sprinting and hill climbing, otherwise we might give it a miss for now? Before I forget, what are the noise limits in general as our Mk2 was producing 102db at Brands (static) - I fear this will be too much?
I hear what you say about timings, so we'll do our best to get there at the crack of dawn and be organised. There's nothing worse than a last minute panic, plus we don't want to forget to do anything.
I find that incredible over the driveshaft incident - brilliant. We're just getting to grips ourselves on the spanners but we'd happily do the same for anyone esle. At the end of the day we're in it to have fun and enjoy the sport. I'm really looking forward to it now, although I envisage a long winter ahead in the lockup fixing things and getting her ready for next season. Out of interest what vehicles do you guys pilot?
Thanks again for the invaluable advice, it's answered a lot of questions.
James.
Ps. Very interesting over the seats. That is a huge help, as I was under the impression we'd need FIA approved jobbies. We can use that money else where for the time being. Maybe purchase a set of Toyo R888's or Yoko A048's like you say. I take it the soft compound would be the preferred option for these?
Okay, so I should see a scrutineer at the event for a MSA logbook, or is this something that has to be done beforehand? I've tried to make sure most of the aftermarket parts we've purchased meet the MSA/FIA approval. Fortunately, the Mk2 Escort RS2000 came with a 2-litre Pinto, so I believe we can run this engine in the ModProd class? This is providing we don't go above the 2,000cc bracket, as this will push us up a grouping, I believe?
I think sprinting is going to be our main focus, although we would like to have a play at places such as Prescott Hill and Shelsey Walsh... But we best not run before we can walk.
Regarding the medical, is this required for just sprinting and hill climbing, otherwise we might give it a miss for now? Before I forget, what are the noise limits in general as our Mk2 was producing 102db at Brands (static) - I fear this will be too much?
I hear what you say about timings, so we'll do our best to get there at the crack of dawn and be organised. There's nothing worse than a last minute panic, plus we don't want to forget to do anything.
I find that incredible over the driveshaft incident - brilliant. We're just getting to grips ourselves on the spanners but we'd happily do the same for anyone esle. At the end of the day we're in it to have fun and enjoy the sport. I'm really looking forward to it now, although I envisage a long winter ahead in the lockup fixing things and getting her ready for next season. Out of interest what vehicles do you guys pilot?
Thanks again for the invaluable advice, it's answered a lot of questions.
James.
Ps. Very interesting over the seats. That is a huge help, as I was under the impression we'd need FIA approved jobbies. We can use that money else where for the time being. Maybe purchase a set of Toyo R888's or Yoko A048's like you say. I take it the soft compound would be the preferred option for these?
rfjames said:
Regarding the medical, is this required for just sprinting and hill climbing, otherwise we might give it a miss for now? Before I forget, what are the noise limits in general as our Mk2 was producing 102db at Brands (static) - I fear this will be too much?
Maybe purchase a set of Toyo R888's or Yoko A048's like you say. I take it the soft compound would be the preferred option for these?
I'm sure you will need a medical for a national B but the MSA site will have the definitive answer on that.Maybe purchase a set of Toyo R888's or Yoko A048's like you say. I take it the soft compound would be the preferred option for these?
Noise limits will be set by the circuit but I think it has always been 105 at all the All Circuit venues. Goodwood is the most strict, Lydden, less so, so make sure you know the exact number as people have been turned away at GW.
If you're in mod prod you can run slicks which will give a big jump in performance. We ran uncut wets as these are the softest rubber you could get for our car.
Okay, I'll pay the MSA site a visit to find out, hopefully we can send off for our licenses soon.
105db is a good rough indication. We'll look into the different noise regulations though, as I can see Goodwood and Lydden being regulars once we're up and running. We're hoping our new 2-litre Pinto will be a tad quieter than our current X-flow, as the new exhaust system will run more boxes. Late night testing is strictly off the agenda where its kept at the moment...
We will definitely give slicks a go at some point, but I think we'll spend a bit of time getting to grips with the car on road tyres first. Very exciting though…
We're trying to loose as much weight in the car as possible at the moment. Any tips, or areas that are worth investigation on a sprint car?
105db is a good rough indication. We'll look into the different noise regulations though, as I can see Goodwood and Lydden being regulars once we're up and running. We're hoping our new 2-litre Pinto will be a tad quieter than our current X-flow, as the new exhaust system will run more boxes. Late night testing is strictly off the agenda where its kept at the moment...
We will definitely give slicks a go at some point, but I think we'll spend a bit of time getting to grips with the car on road tyres first. Very exciting though…
We're trying to loose as much weight in the car as possible at the moment. Any tips, or areas that are worth investigation on a sprint car?
I've been sprinting in the TWMC events this year and really enjoyed it and everyone I've met have been helpful and friendly,
I run the the standard production class up to 2.0 and it's been good value, entry fees are in the region of £90 for Lydden only one which is a bit high is Brands Hatch next month at £160.
If you come to some either of the remaining TWMC event I'll be there in the Yellow Clio 172.
I run the the standard production class up to 2.0 and it's been good value, entry fees are in the region of £90 for Lydden only one which is a bit high is Brands Hatch next month at £160.
If you come to some either of the remaining TWMC event I'll be there in the Yellow Clio 172.
That's good news over the non-race Nat B license, we'll send off for ours immediately.
Excellent. We'll try and get along to the next event, will you be attending Brands Hatch? If so I'll keep an eye out for a Yellow 172 if we can make it. They're cracking handling cars. Is there a forum available on the TWMC?
Pricing seems pretty reasonable, is there much of a difference for those double driving?
Stupid question time; is there anyone else out on track at the same time?
Excellent. We'll try and get along to the next event, will you be attending Brands Hatch? If so I'll keep an eye out for a Yellow 172 if we can make it. They're cracking handling cars. Is there a forum available on the TWMC?
Pricing seems pretty reasonable, is there much of a difference for those double driving?
Stupid question time; is there anyone else out on track at the same time?
rfjames said:
That's good news over the non-race Nat B license, we'll send off for ours immediately.
Excellent. We'll try and get along to the next event, will you be attending Brands Hatch? If so I'll keep an eye out for a Yellow 172 if we can make it. They're cracking handling cars. Is there a forum available on the TWMC?
Pricing seems pretty reasonable, is there much of a difference for those double driving?
Stupid question time; is there anyone else out on track at the same time?
Apologies, I stand corrected on the medical issue. Excellent. We'll try and get along to the next event, will you be attending Brands Hatch? If so I'll keep an eye out for a Yellow 172 if we can make it. They're cracking handling cars. Is there a forum available on the TWMC?
Pricing seems pretty reasonable, is there much of a difference for those double driving?
Stupid question time; is there anyone else out on track at the same time?
But licences are annual, so don't bother sending off for a current licence if you don't intend to sprint this year!
Entry fees are per driver, not like track days where you can add an additional driver for a small extra fee.
TWMC doesn't have a forum but there is a sprint section on Ten-Tenths which a couple of drivers might use.
At Lydden, I think there are three cars on track but you'll never see one another unless you end up pointing the wrong way! At Goodwood during the first couple of runs when people are finding their feet it's not unusual to catch up a slower driver which gets you a rerun.
carl_w said:
chris_w said:
I'm sure you will need a medical for a national B but the MSA site will have the definitive answer on that.
Nope, although if you're over a certain age (45?) then I think you need to put your doctor's details on there.rfjames said:
Stupid question time; is there anyone else out on track at the same time?
Typically at a speed event cars are set off at ~20-30 second intervals so there will be up to four cars on the track, depending on the length of the course in use. Unless there is a massive difference in speed between two cars or the person in front of you spins you will not see another car on the track during your run. If you do catch someone up during a "timed run" and are baulked (overtaking is generally frowned upon) then you will get a re-run.It gets a bit more complicated when events are multi-lap, for example we do a 1.75 lap event at Castle Combe and another at Llandow. We don't get many baulks at Llandow as it is so short but we do get some at Combe, even with seeding the cars on the start line to try to avoid it.
James,
Just to clarify the medical bit, for a non race national B it's a self certification similar to a job application, you are asked yes/no questions, 'Have you ever suffered with heart disease' type of question. As long as you can answer no to all of the questions and know your GP's contact details you can apply for your licence online, (and at your age I'd be surprised if you couldn't answer no), also have a digital facial picture ready you have to put that in the application, licence usually seems to be back within a few days.
The other thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is you will need an MSA approved helmet and fire resistant overalls (and gloves next year I think).
My first season sprinting and it's great fun.
Just to clarify the medical bit, for a non race national B it's a self certification similar to a job application, you are asked yes/no questions, 'Have you ever suffered with heart disease' type of question. As long as you can answer no to all of the questions and know your GP's contact details you can apply for your licence online, (and at your age I'd be surprised if you couldn't answer no), also have a digital facial picture ready you have to put that in the application, licence usually seems to be back within a few days.
The other thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is you will need an MSA approved helmet and fire resistant overalls (and gloves next year I think).
My first season sprinting and it's great fun.
Edited by Norfolkit on Wednesday 12th August 21:48
Edited by Norfolkit on Wednesday 12th August 22:43
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