LS6 engine in an Ultima
Discussion
I apologize in advance if this is a silly question, but I'm new to building cars. I'm looking at getting an Ultima GTR kit to build in California. Unfortunately, everything I read seems to point towards major limitations on what's possible from an engine standpoint - being pointed towards an LS1. Was curious if it's possible to put an LS6 in the Ultima chassis and if so would it still pass California Emissions, etc.? Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers!
Cheers!
In the UK we have it easy because the engine has to pass the emissions law at the time the block was manufactured. However I believe in california an old chevy engine runnning on carbs will not pass your emissions laws. As a rule of thumb if you put a modern "california friendly" engine in your ultima it will pass the emission tests.
I'm currently building a GTR in Germany and we have together with California the strictest emission regulations worldwide. We put in a brand new LS6 engine last week. I have the advantage of building the car together with a first class engineering company and they're about to develop a new exhaust system which will pass our emission regulations. It should then be good for California,too. The costs for developing such an exhaust system can be extremely high as there's very little space for the cataclysts and mufflers. I guess we'll have the first prototype finished by the end of this month, so maybe you should just wait until we've completed the development. If there are more people interested in such an exhaust system we could maybe even think about producing it...which was not planned but could turn out to be an intersting alternative for those who have the same problem like you.
Ok this is when I tell everyone to move to Toronto, Canada. As of January 1st 2002 all " kitcars " are emmisions exempt! This has left the door wide open for whatever engine I want. This has created a large dilema for me as it really comes down to how much money am I willing to spend on the drivetrain.
schimms - do you have any idea what the cost would be for a copy of your exhaust system - ballpark would be fine? Also - would there be any guarantee that the system would pass CA emissions?
Thanks much for the info!
Also - curious what electronics and instrumentation you plan to build in with your LS6, would imagine that there would be a number of possibilities.
>> Edited by imagine on Sunday 3rd November 22:06
Thanks much for the info!
Also - curious what electronics and instrumentation you plan to build in with your LS6, would imagine that there would be a number of possibilities.
>> Edited by imagine on Sunday 3rd November 22:06
I really can't tell you anything about the cost of the system as I don't know by now which parts will be used. But I guess it'll be much cheaper than anything you'd have built. I'll tell you about the costs as soon as I know more. Apart from that we found out that the standard chevy/porsche adapter plate from Ultima won't fit to the LS6 engine, as well as the flywheel. So we designed and built these parts to fit to the engine, an engine management is in development. If you could give me some information about the California emission regulations we could maybe try to dyno the engine to meet both the German and your regulations... you can e-mail if you want to for further information.
Regards,
Sven
Regards,
Sven
imagine: I'll try to be as helpful as possible considering I don't know much about all the details of a car being approved in California, but I remember reading about California specific stuff.
The problem is that it's not just a simple matter of the car passing the emission test. That would be relatively easy, but it also involves government bureaucracy, and that's the harder part. However, it can be overcome.
In California, whenever you do something like a kit car or swap a different engine in a regular production car, it's not enough to just take it to have your emissions tested every year. Before you do that, you have to have the car approved by an emission referee--yup, that's really what they call the person who does this. Only after the referee approves the conversion, kit car, or whatever it is, then you're set and can now go on to regular emission testing each year thereafter.
Again, I don't know much about this but have read a few things about it. I believe that with kit cars, you have to take it to the referee, but I'm not sure. I'd check with the emission people in California (CARB and those who do the actual testing), and I'd also try to find late model kit car owners in California and ask them.
Since the Ultima is a mid-engined car in which you're going to install a Corvette engine, and it uses its own specific headers and exhaust, you need to see exactly where the catalytic converters go on the Corvette and find out how they could be incorporated in the design of the Ultima's exhaust. Again, if a referee would need to approve the car, you'd need to know all the specifics of cats being installed in your Ultima, such as does it need to use the exact same cats that the LS6 powered Corvette uses? Same number of cats? If not, then what? Where do they need to go? Etc.
It's because of this that Sven's headers and full exhaust, even if it passes California emissions--meaning the actual sniffer test--may not visually pass a referee's inspection.
FYI the 02 and 03 Z06 Vettes use less cats than the 01 Z06. I believe that for 02, they dropped the small, auxiliary cats that are close to the engine/exhaust manifolds, and used a more efficient main cat (or two main cats--not sure) further down the exhaust.
I'd imagine that someone out there must've built an Ultima in California, and even if it was LS1 powered, it'd help you to know the specifics.
Sorry I can't give you any actual answers. All I'm saying is that you need to research this as thoroughly as you can, and I hope that I at least pointed you in the right direction.
Or just move to Canada.
Sven: Do you know if the custom work that you're doing in order to hook up the LS6 to the Porsche transaxle would be necessary for an LS1 as well, or would the Ultima adapter plate work for that engine? I think that the LS6 engine has a different starter motor from the LS1, which leads me to believe that it may use a different flywheel also. I'm asking because fully built Ultimas were sold in the US with the LS1.
The problem is that it's not just a simple matter of the car passing the emission test. That would be relatively easy, but it also involves government bureaucracy, and that's the harder part. However, it can be overcome.
In California, whenever you do something like a kit car or swap a different engine in a regular production car, it's not enough to just take it to have your emissions tested every year. Before you do that, you have to have the car approved by an emission referee--yup, that's really what they call the person who does this. Only after the referee approves the conversion, kit car, or whatever it is, then you're set and can now go on to regular emission testing each year thereafter.
Again, I don't know much about this but have read a few things about it. I believe that with kit cars, you have to take it to the referee, but I'm not sure. I'd check with the emission people in California (CARB and those who do the actual testing), and I'd also try to find late model kit car owners in California and ask them.
Since the Ultima is a mid-engined car in which you're going to install a Corvette engine, and it uses its own specific headers and exhaust, you need to see exactly where the catalytic converters go on the Corvette and find out how they could be incorporated in the design of the Ultima's exhaust. Again, if a referee would need to approve the car, you'd need to know all the specifics of cats being installed in your Ultima, such as does it need to use the exact same cats that the LS6 powered Corvette uses? Same number of cats? If not, then what? Where do they need to go? Etc.
It's because of this that Sven's headers and full exhaust, even if it passes California emissions--meaning the actual sniffer test--may not visually pass a referee's inspection.
FYI the 02 and 03 Z06 Vettes use less cats than the 01 Z06. I believe that for 02, they dropped the small, auxiliary cats that are close to the engine/exhaust manifolds, and used a more efficient main cat (or two main cats--not sure) further down the exhaust.
I'd imagine that someone out there must've built an Ultima in California, and even if it was LS1 powered, it'd help you to know the specifics.
Sorry I can't give you any actual answers. All I'm saying is that you need to research this as thoroughly as you can, and I hope that I at least pointed you in the right direction.
Or just move to Canada.
Sven: Do you know if the custom work that you're doing in order to hook up the LS6 to the Porsche transaxle would be necessary for an LS1 as well, or would the Ultima adapter plate work for that engine? I think that the LS6 engine has a different starter motor from the LS1, which leads me to believe that it may use a different flywheel also. I'm asking because fully built Ultimas were sold in the US with the LS1.
Miguel,
Thanks much for the info, thus far, finding someone who has built and registered an Ultima GTR in California has been a challenge - though I've only been looking for a short time. Guess my next steps will be to followup with the CARB, etc.
Sven,
I'll drop you a mail to followup on options.
to all,
Also, interested if anyone has had any luck with a sequential gearbox. I've read a couple posts here - most seem to have been rather troublesome experiences. Anyone with positive news/details?
Thanks, imagine
Thanks much for the info, thus far, finding someone who has built and registered an Ultima GTR in California has been a challenge - though I've only been looking for a short time. Guess my next steps will be to followup with the CARB, etc.
Sven,
I'll drop you a mail to followup on options.
to all,
Also, interested if anyone has had any luck with a sequential gearbox. I've read a couple posts here - most seem to have been rather troublesome experiences. Anyone with positive news/details?
Thanks, imagine
That referee thing sounds very familiar to me, that's just the same here in Germany. You need to have any change to any car approved by them plus annual inspections. I think we have the toughest regulations worldwide, that's why we have to put so much effort into the construction.
Miguel: as far as I know the standard parts sold by Ultima will fit to the LS1 engine, there must be some differences between the LS1 and the LS6 engine. We used a porsche starter which was easier to fit...
Miguel: as far as I know the standard parts sold by Ultima will fit to the LS1 engine, there must be some differences between the LS1 and the LS6 engine. We used a porsche starter which was easier to fit...
I'm installing a 580hp (450RWHP)LS6 in my GTR. The Gen 3 small block, as it's refered to, is very different from the gen 1 SBC. Kennedy Engineering in Palmdale CA make the adaptor plates for all Ulitma applications. You can't use the 6 speed, I'm using a G50/52. Guy Beddington in Australia, guy@blueheelerbeds.com ,has a carbon fibre intake system $800 and a complete exhaust with or without Cats for $3200-3600 U.S. for the LS1-LS6.
The best sources for ls1/LS6 perf parts are www.sdpc2000.com and www.paceparts.com these are huge GM Dealers that sell in volume, which make there prices much better than my local dealer. They also ship worldwide.
LS1 or LS6 doesn't really matter as they a dimensionally very similar. I was going to build an LS6 Ultima but couldn't get it past customs in Canada. I found out to my cost that no kit car can "Legally" be imported into Canada even if they are for off road use. I know the guy who originally built Ultimas in the US had a California legal GTR. The big problem is that not only do you need to have full cats which is easy but also a pressurized gas tank. This requires a lot of work from what I understand but it can be done. A friend had a ride in the car and everything worked OK.
I think the guys name was Mike Mullen. I don't have any contact info. You could try talking to Ted Marlow at Ultima in the UK. I don't think Ted and Mike saw eye to eye regarding the business side. Mike is no longer involved with Ultima from what I have been told. However, Ted may have his contact info. The Ultima factory really don't want to get involved with anything other than smallblock installs due to there lack of knowledge of other engines. You can't really blame them but the end result is that you will be pretty much on your own with an LS6 install.
pstockley said: LS1 or LS6 doesn't really matter as they a dimensionally very similar. I was going to build an LS6 Ultima but couldn't get it past customs in Canada. I found out to my cost that no kit car can "Legally" be imported into Canada even if they are for off road use. I know the guy who originally built Ultimas in the US had a California legal GTR. The big problem is that not only do you need to have full cats which is easy but also a pressurized gas tank. This requires a lot of work from what I understand but it can be done. A friend had a ride in the car and everything worked OK.
You are referring to assembled kitcars? I am under the impression that unassembled cars are aloud in. Am I wrong?
pstockley said: No kitcar assembled or not is allowed into the country. I found out the hard way because they turned mine away at the border and sent it back to the UK. I still haven't got my money back yet and its been over 8 months. Anyone want to buy a left hand drive GTR ?
Excuse my French but you have to be F!@#@#$$ kidding me!! Thats the worse news I have had in a long time! This is really bad...I was about to say you don't know how upset this makes me but your car had to be sent back. I feel sorry for you. If you don't see me post again its most likely because I have gone to see my shrink
Is this a new law? I have seen alot of other kitcars around did they say why?
pstockley said: If your interested, I have a friend who is just finishing a LS1 powered GTR in Toronto. I think he may be selling the car when its complete.
How much does he want for it and is it legal here? Damn I am so crushed by this news. Originally I delayed my Ultima purchase to get a new house with space to build it in. Now I find out all my troubles were for nothing. My wife is going to freak on me! Dammit an assembled car is going to be out of my price range
Well let me know how much he is going to want for it. If you could also send me an email regarding how much you want for your kit. I am not giving up that easy. Yes apparently that is the law. I think the law was changed somewhere around 5 to 10 years ago to ban any kit cars imported into the country. Someone told me that there was some shady business between the US and Canada that prompted the ban. Not too sure how accurate that is.
Most of the kit cars recently imported more than likely were brought in as car parts (illegally). I talked to the registrar for imported vehicles and they said there was no way for me to import the car for street or track use.
The end result is that I am now designing an building my own car powered by a Suzuki Hyabusa motor.
Most of the kit cars recently imported more than likely were brought in as car parts (illegally). I talked to the registrar for imported vehicles and they said there was no way for me to import the car for street or track use.
The end result is that I am now designing an building my own car powered by a Suzuki Hyabusa motor.
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