Tuckshops Ultima
Discussion
I generally subscribe to the school of thought that says the best form of traction control in a car like the Ultima is your right foot. Having had cars both with and without it, I would say that you get a lot more control if you do the work yourself. I have an AMG Merc as my daily transport (not particularlt sprightly by Ultima standards, but it has 365 BHP and will lap Snetterton in 1:28) and I find that if I want to go fast, and control the car round high speed corners, I turn the TC off.
I wouldn't dream of fitting it to a car like the Ultima, because you should be taking it easy on the roads, so it won't be necessary, and you would turn it off on the track.
James
I wouldn't dream of fitting it to a car like the Ultima, because you should be taking it easy on the roads, so it won't be necessary, and you would turn it off on the track.
James
Really sad to see the pics Tuckshop. Glad you both escaped with only minor injuries.
I had a very spooky moment in my Ultima on the way to the last Pie & Drive a VW. I was sat behind some white eurobox in a NSL with a wet road doing about 40mph. The said car pulls into a right hand turn filter lane and when my way was clear I eased down on the throttle, and I mean eased, I was in no hurry! The rear tyres just lit up, no warning! Now I was in FOURTH gear! The car squirmed up the road with the rev counter heading round towards 5,500rpm.
Just goes to show that 500+Ib/ft of torque and a wet road needs seriouse respect. It could have been far worse, I was lucky to only find myself chuckling, not explaining to some poor sod why my car is embedded in his front wall.
On the crash worthy front Jedi. A factory car was involved in a very similar accident about a year ago. A punter was driving with Ted in the passenger seat, exiting a roundabout he managed to loose it big time. For some reason he keept his foot in and ended up spinning accross the road at over 80. Hit the front of an Omega doing about 40mph side ways on just behind the passenger side fuel tank. The car carried on up the road, hit a very large lampost front on, spun off into a road sign and ended up down a ditch. The only injury sustained was a cracked sturnum for Ted. (He never tightened his belts properly.)
When the car was back at the factory they took some measurements of the passenger cell. It lined up perfectly. Just about every other component was destroyed or badly damaged. The engine & 'box were knocked a good 10deg out of line, all four wheels were deformed absorbing a lot of the energy, the front crumple zone and steering colum performed as designed and even though the fuel tank was clipped in the initial impact it never leaked. I had a good sniff arround this car and was amazed at the energy involved in a high speed crash. I did feel a little smug though, I helped build the car right up to rolling chassis and was nearing completion of my own Ultima.
WELL DONE THE ULTIMA DESIGN TEAM FOR GETTING THE IMPORTANT BITS RIGHT.
Paul.
I had a very spooky moment in my Ultima on the way to the last Pie & Drive a VW. I was sat behind some white eurobox in a NSL with a wet road doing about 40mph. The said car pulls into a right hand turn filter lane and when my way was clear I eased down on the throttle, and I mean eased, I was in no hurry! The rear tyres just lit up, no warning! Now I was in FOURTH gear! The car squirmed up the road with the rev counter heading round towards 5,500rpm.
Just goes to show that 500+Ib/ft of torque and a wet road needs seriouse respect. It could have been far worse, I was lucky to only find myself chuckling, not explaining to some poor sod why my car is embedded in his front wall.
On the crash worthy front Jedi. A factory car was involved in a very similar accident about a year ago. A punter was driving with Ted in the passenger seat, exiting a roundabout he managed to loose it big time. For some reason he keept his foot in and ended up spinning accross the road at over 80. Hit the front of an Omega doing about 40mph side ways on just behind the passenger side fuel tank. The car carried on up the road, hit a very large lampost front on, spun off into a road sign and ended up down a ditch. The only injury sustained was a cracked sturnum for Ted. (He never tightened his belts properly.)
When the car was back at the factory they took some measurements of the passenger cell. It lined up perfectly. Just about every other component was destroyed or badly damaged. The engine & 'box were knocked a good 10deg out of line, all four wheels were deformed absorbing a lot of the energy, the front crumple zone and steering colum performed as designed and even though the fuel tank was clipped in the initial impact it never leaked. I had a good sniff arround this car and was amazed at the energy involved in a high speed crash. I did feel a little smug though, I helped build the car right up to rolling chassis and was nearing completion of my own Ultima.
WELL DONE THE ULTIMA DESIGN TEAM FOR GETTING THE IMPORTANT BITS RIGHT.
Paul.
On the crash worthness front one thing to remember is that GRP will absorb loads on impact and then shatter, leaving not much left, where as a metal car will absorb impact in the crumple zone and then crumple the bit with you in it...
ALthough crashed grp cars can look terrible at then end of the day they have protected you the same if not more than the metal bodied car...
And the important thing is that you are both ok..
ALthough crashed grp cars can look terrible at then end of the day they have protected you the same if not more than the metal bodied car...
And the important thing is that you are both ok..
I spun the Ultima in the wet during the summer. I have talked it through with the factory and they thought I might have aquaplaned. What makes this interesting is that I was doing 90 mph in 5th on full throttle when the rears lit up and the car did a 360 down the dual carriageway. I needed both the lanes to recover and it was more luck than skill that allowed me to catch the spin when the car pointed back in the direction of travel. Amazingly I hit nothing at all and didn't stop shaking for 2 hours.
There were no puddles and the road had a good surface. The reason I think I spun was down to spilled diesel from a lorry. It’s a common problem that bikers complain about alot. Unfortunately when an Ultima starts to spin it has alot of weight in the back (the engine) and you have to be supernaturally fast to catch it. This is especially the case when the rears light up and surprise you.
If I was a gambling man Tuckshop I bet that’s what happened to you.
There were no puddles and the road had a good surface. The reason I think I spun was down to spilled diesel from a lorry. It’s a common problem that bikers complain about alot. Unfortunately when an Ultima starts to spin it has alot of weight in the back (the engine) and you have to be supernaturally fast to catch it. This is especially the case when the rears light up and surprise you.
If I was a gambling man Tuckshop I bet that’s what happened to you.
Hope everyone gets well soon, looks like a very scary accident!
Regarding traction control - How about a long throw accelerator pedal instead of TC? So you really have to push a long way to get full throttle. There is a modified throttle cam available for my car that decrease the pedal travel, giving the impression of improved throttle response and hence accelaration - it seems in an Ultima you'd want the opposite of this!
Regarding traction control - How about a long throw accelerator pedal instead of TC? So you really have to push a long way to get full throttle. There is a modified throttle cam available for my car that decrease the pedal travel, giving the impression of improved throttle response and hence accelaration - it seems in an Ultima you'd want the opposite of this!
James
There is a difference in driving a Merc with TC compared to an Ult. The TC i have is tunable and comes with variable slip on straightline and bend. What makes it so much fun is that you can set the slip you want for the road and conditions. If you want to hoon you can let the back slide but if it is wet and you want to get home you can let the tc allow 0% slip on full throttle. It works for me when the roads are flooded and you ca always turn it off!!
There is a difference in driving a Merc with TC compared to an Ult. The TC i have is tunable and comes with variable slip on straightline and bend. What makes it so much fun is that you can set the slip you want for the road and conditions. If you want to hoon you can let the back slide but if it is wet and you want to get home you can let the tc allow 0% slip on full throttle. It works for me when the roads are flooded and you ca always turn it off!!
UltimaAnimal - drunken reply I'm afraid. Couple of comments to explain - first it is refreshing to find someone involved in the industry that can reason against the magical horse (in a few threads at the moment), without relating to the fat Fiat so must be crap argument. Maybe it isn't so bad that I will never be able to afford one after all (although there will always be something a bit special about them).
Reason I said that you need to understand reason for the crash is that otherwise you will never enjoy mashing the throttle experience without the what if in the back of your mind. That's what I felt anyway.
I'm obviously not on form tonight. Much as I enjoy PH, it is not my ideal after pub entertainment! I'd better not come home on my own tomorrow as well
.
Reason I said that you need to understand reason for the crash is that otherwise you will never enjoy mashing the throttle experience without the what if in the back of your mind. That's what I felt anyway.
I'm obviously not on form tonight. Much as I enjoy PH, it is not my ideal after pub entertainment! I'd better not come home on my own tomorrow as well
.
james said: I generally subscribe to the school of thought that says the best form of traction control in a car like the Ultima is your right foot. Having had cars both with and without it, I would say that you get a lot more control if you do the work yourself. I have an AMG Merc as my daily transport (not particularlt sprightly by Ultima standards, but it has 365 BHP and will lap Snetterton in 1:28) and I find that if I want to go fast, and control the car round high speed corners, I turn the TC off.
I wouldn't dream of fitting it to a car like the Ultima, because you should be taking it easy on the roads, so it won't be necessary, and you would turn it off on the track.
James
Hear hear mate. I have TC fitted, but I spend half my time walking on it!
Having now had a chance to see the pictures, I'd guess that Tuckshop gave it a bit too much large away from the lights, losing the back and putting it into the path of the oncoming car. The impact seems to have been taken on on the nearside front half of the car - almost square on (which would tally with the 'spinning into oncoming traffic' theory).
As was said earlier, the fact that you both got out with your lives (thank goodness) is testament to the strength and design of the Ultima chassis. Whilst Ted & Co. can make every effort to make these cars as safe as possible, it's us as drivers who have a responsibility to keep them shiny side up. You can't just drive them with inpunity.
As a footnote, the Ultima may have it's roots on the racetrack, but it was designed for road use. That's what takes years to develop too!!
There's a lesson here for us all.
OUCH...Tuckshop 
i just managed to view the pics...thats gonna hurt the GirlFriend as well as the wallet But as i suspected a side 3/4 impact and it is testament that your girlfriend got out alive with minor injuries....there are not many cars on the market today that you would both walk away from. I remember an accident i had in my youth (about 1981) whilst driving a Vauxhaul HSR Chevette (lol...yeah i had a Chevette) i hit a tree at about 50 head on, when i woke up all i cound feel was pain in my shoulders, a cracked collar bone (bone was out the front of my shirt ) and my knees ached like hell. After the trip to the hospital it was explained that the 6 points broke my collar bone and bruised both shoulders and in the impact my knees rose up and hit the lower dash roll but apart from the damage to my wallet i was reletevely ok, again thanks to a roll cage and Willans 6 points...I will never forget that day as long as i live, as i suspect you feel the same now....Hope you are both OK and getting over the accident as well as you can.
Kind regards
Andy
Daydreamer...OK...no problem. As you probably guessed by now i am not a great fan of the big red F...for many reasons but mainly the type of people who drive them are DICKS and know absolutely ZERO about the machinery they own. I also dislike some of the (and i hasten to use this word) cheap engineering. I know it sound rediculous, but I have been involved in the reverse engineering tear downs of a few of the prancing horses (a 355, 360, 400 and a 240 restoration for a friend) and i have never been impressed by the passenger compartment or the structure, but the engines are a work of absolute art. To be fair though early Astons were very similar GT2/4 Zegato being one i remember well and early DB5 (very thin skin in places).
>> Edited by UltimaAnimal on Saturday 30th November 11:31
i just managed to view the pics...thats gonna hurt the GirlFriend as well as the wallet But as i suspected a side 3/4 impact and it is testament that your girlfriend got out alive with minor injuries....there are not many cars on the market today that you would both walk away from. I remember an accident i had in my youth (about 1981) whilst driving a Vauxhaul HSR Chevette (lol...yeah i had a Chevette) i hit a tree at about 50 head on, when i woke up all i cound feel was pain in my shoulders, a cracked collar bone (bone was out the front of my shirt ) and my knees ached like hell. After the trip to the hospital it was explained that the 6 points broke my collar bone and bruised both shoulders and in the impact my knees rose up and hit the lower dash roll but apart from the damage to my wallet i was reletevely ok, again thanks to a roll cage and Willans 6 points...I will never forget that day as long as i live, as i suspect you feel the same now....Hope you are both OK and getting over the accident as well as you can. Kind regards
Andy
Daydreamer...OK...no problem. As you probably guessed by now i am not a great fan of the big red F...for many reasons but mainly the type of people who drive them are DICKS and know absolutely ZERO about the machinery they own. I also dislike some of the (and i hasten to use this word) cheap engineering. I know it sound rediculous, but I have been involved in the reverse engineering tear downs of a few of the prancing horses (a 355, 360, 400 and a 240 restoration for a friend) and i have never been impressed by the passenger compartment or the structure, but the engines are a work of absolute art. To be fair though early Astons were very similar GT2/4 Zegato being one i remember well and early DB5 (very thin skin in places).
>> Edited by UltimaAnimal on Saturday 30th November 11:31
My heart is set on an Ultima now anyway - especially providing year end goes OK. Our company preaches that mechanical design should be about making the best use of the base engineering concepts (Newton et al - I'm biased as I went to his college). This seems to be where Ted is coming from - get the design right first, from a functional (i.e strong and stiff) and an emotive front (in the case of cars, lots of g-forces in every direction), then enhance it with clever bits of control only if you need to, which many on this thread (and in the know) think is unnecessary.
Tuckshop's incident always makes you think about these choices. I think old 911 had similar characteristics to the Ultima in past incarnations (i.e. you need to really know what you are doing to push it, as it is not the most forgiving of platforms), but didn't stop if becoming a classic.
Any doubts were put to rest when I came across the new(ish) MPEGS on the web site this morning, and also the links from James' site.
www.ultimacars.com/video/ultima14.mpg
I know that Ted is no slouch, but the cornering speeds are still exceptional. The end of the last clip however, where Ted is hard on the brakes to slow to the top speed of a Porche says it all.
A new 911 and an Ultima may be of similar price, and I could never justify the former, even though it could be driven every day, where you really need a spare car with the latter. There is something about Ted's creations however that seem to make it all worth it. They are without doubt capable, the fact tht you put them together yourself has large appeal to me, and there is certainly the what the f
k was that factor. But is is more than the sum of the parts that makes it so attractive, and why people like me will always spend far more than they can afford in realising the dream.
Tuckshop - get it back on the road - you know that you want to!
). This seems to be where Ted is coming from - get the design right first, from a functional (i.e strong and stiff) and an emotive front (in the case of cars, lots of g-forces in every direction), then enhance it with clever bits of control only if you need to, which many on this thread (and in the know) think is unnecessary. Tuckshop's incident always makes you think about these choices. I think old 911 had similar characteristics to the Ultima in past incarnations (i.e. you need to really know what you are doing to push it, as it is not the most forgiving of platforms), but didn't stop if becoming a classic.
Any doubts were put to rest when I came across the new(ish) MPEGS on the web site this morning, and also the links from James' site.
www.ultimacars.com/video/ultima14.mpg
I know that Ted is no slouch, but the cornering speeds are still exceptional. The end of the last clip however, where Ted is hard on the brakes to slow to the top speed of a Porche says it all.
A new 911 and an Ultima may be of similar price, and I could never justify the former, even though it could be driven every day, where you really need a spare car with the latter. There is something about Ted's creations however that seem to make it all worth it. They are without doubt capable, the fact tht you put them together yourself has large appeal to me, and there is certainly the what the f
k was that factor. But is is more than the sum of the parts that makes it so attractive, and why people like me will always spend far more than they can afford in realising the dream. Tuckshop - get it back on the road - you know that you want to!
Sieze said: Stig - sorry I disagree- an Ulima is a road modified race car (Prosport 3000)not a car designed for road use. Ultima have expertly converted a race chassis into a road car that can be build by almost anyone.
Errr... isn't that what I said?
The Ultima has it's roots on the track (Prosport) but as you have been so keen to point out, Ultima have converted it into a road car and that's where the majority of the last 17 odd years of Ted & Co's development has been focused.
Pass me another egg to suck
>> Edited by Stig (moderator) on Saturday 30th November 21:47
Very sorry to hear about your recent incident Tuckshop. I was trying to check out the photos on your site, but got a 20 meg. limit error. I hope all is well with you and your girlfriend. I know I wouldn't hear the end of it with my wife had it been me. She'd be kicking my A$$ for months
Seriously though, I think one of the lessons to learn here, as was pointed out, is that the Ultima demands respect. I don't know Tuckshops engine specs.. Having read comments on this site about 500+hp motors being the norm and expected thing I can only disagree. I've got a 500hp motor, and I can remember my first impressions and thinking that I should have gone with 400hp. 500hp in an Ultima is like 680hp in a C5 vette. The Ultima is a very light car, the chevy v8 has a ton of torque with a wide powerband, and the stock porsche G50's are geared very short. 1st gear is especially useless, unless doing burn-outs. The best 0-60 times are done starting in 2nd. A good friend of mine with a sport is able to spin the rears, in the dry, in 4th gear with 450ft. lbs of torque. The pylon mounted rear wing helped to cure this, but these aerodynamic aids don't help much at lower speeds. I've been able to break traction on a dry road, regularly, in 3rd at low speed while revving it a bit (3500-4000rpm). Ted&Co. have put together an awesome package of car and power. Its a true supercar without a doubt! People need to think more in terms of power-to-weight when selecting a motor though. As an example: Vette ZO6=(385hp/3130lbs)*2000=246hp/ton. Ultima with 350hp=(350/2400lbs)*2000=291hp/ton. Ultima with 500hp...417 hp/ton. If your thinking of building an Ultima with 500hp, then go out and drive highly modified sports car with 420hp/ton and see if its what you really want to do. Its in a completely different league, than a tuned BMW, Merc., Vette, etc... These cars all pretty much weigh around 3200+lbs, so you'd need to find a car with at least 675hp! Unless your seriously into track days, I can't imagine why you'd want 450+hp in an Ultima. You'll never be able to realize the full potential of it on the street(safely or legally). I'm just glad I live somewhere with a low average rainfall each year
Trust me, though we may not like to admit it, a lot of us would be better off with 350hp...unless your name is Ted Marlow of course
Cheers!
-Mack
Seriously though, I think one of the lessons to learn here, as was pointed out, is that the Ultima demands respect. I don't know Tuckshops engine specs.. Having read comments on this site about 500+hp motors being the norm and expected thing I can only disagree. I've got a 500hp motor, and I can remember my first impressions and thinking that I should have gone with 400hp. 500hp in an Ultima is like 680hp in a C5 vette. The Ultima is a very light car, the chevy v8 has a ton of torque with a wide powerband, and the stock porsche G50's are geared very short. 1st gear is especially useless, unless doing burn-outs. The best 0-60 times are done starting in 2nd. A good friend of mine with a sport is able to spin the rears, in the dry, in 4th gear with 450ft. lbs of torque. The pylon mounted rear wing helped to cure this, but these aerodynamic aids don't help much at lower speeds. I've been able to break traction on a dry road, regularly, in 3rd at low speed while revving it a bit (3500-4000rpm). Ted&Co. have put together an awesome package of car and power. Its a true supercar without a doubt! People need to think more in terms of power-to-weight when selecting a motor though. As an example: Vette ZO6=(385hp/3130lbs)*2000=246hp/ton. Ultima with 350hp=(350/2400lbs)*2000=291hp/ton. Ultima with 500hp...417 hp/ton. If your thinking of building an Ultima with 500hp, then go out and drive highly modified sports car with 420hp/ton and see if its what you really want to do. Its in a completely different league, than a tuned BMW, Merc., Vette, etc... These cars all pretty much weigh around 3200+lbs, so you'd need to find a car with at least 675hp! Unless your seriously into track days, I can't imagine why you'd want 450+hp in an Ultima. You'll never be able to realize the full potential of it on the street(safely or legally). I'm just glad I live somewhere with a low average rainfall each year
Trust me, though we may not like to admit it, a lot of us would be better off with 350hp...unless your name is Ted Marlow of course
Cheers!
-Mack
Sounds terrible,
We have had some bad luck with our ultima. A friend who helped build the car, who I'm sure will wish to remain anonymous managed to spin the car in quite the same way as you did pulling away in semi-dry conditions. He managed not to hit anything, he also managed not to tell me about it for a while, but came clean after a while.
We have also managed to seriously break some of the more essential parts of the car, once or twice. Untill I read your mesage, I thought we were sofar the unluckiest ultimaowners, after breaking our car on the second day of having it on the road, but your accident sounds a lot worse.
Good luck,
Dr. J
We have had some bad luck with our ultima. A friend who helped build the car, who I'm sure will wish to remain anonymous managed to spin the car in quite the same way as you did pulling away in semi-dry conditions. He managed not to hit anything, he also managed not to tell me about it for a while, but came clean after a while.
We have also managed to seriously break some of the more essential parts of the car, once or twice. Untill I read your mesage, I thought we were sofar the unluckiest ultimaowners, after breaking our car on the second day of having it on the road, but your accident sounds a lot worse.
Good luck,
Dr. J
daydreamer said:
I know that Ted is no slouch, but the cornering speeds are still exceptional. The end of the last clip however, where Ted is hard on the brakes to slow to the top speed of a Porche says it all.
I didn't know that there were any video clips of Ted following a 911. If you're talking about the video's on my site www.ultima-racing.com then it's me driving, not Ted. To be fair, I wasn't pushing it at any time in that clip, but was just following my mate Beaver in order to get some footage of his car on the track. You'll see (and hear) that about half way round the lap I missed a gear, and it was pretty easy to make up the gap that opened. When I was actually trying, there was no way that his Porker could keep up. That isn't particularly because of any incredible skill level on my part, more because my Ultima (with a mere 330BHP) is much better set up for track use than the 911.
The only in car video on the site with anybody but me driving was an ex team mate who rolled one of the Rovers at Thruxton
James
The video is up on Ultima's web site, it was taken at Donnington a few weeks ago.
It was the Porsche drivers first track day, so he was driving it pretty slowly, especially as his colleagues 911 had taken a trip across the dirt earlier in the day, and the Impreza from the next pit had been written off.
I was hoping to get some decent footage of Ted on the track, but unfortunately as I managed to get up behind him he was black flagged for being too noisy...
There are a couple of pictures from the day on my website - www.miraz.com/
It was the Porsche drivers first track day, so he was driving it pretty slowly, especially as his colleagues 911 had taken a trip across the dirt earlier in the day, and the Impreza from the next pit had been written off.
I was hoping to get some decent footage of Ted on the track, but unfortunately as I managed to get up behind him he was black flagged for being too noisy...
There are a couple of pictures from the day on my website - www.miraz.com/
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