"Tuckshop" moment
Discussion
I must admit I had a "Tuckshop" moment on thursday.
Whilst doing 40mph round a sweeping bend the front went light with a little understeer, I eased out of it and the back went round, only went a bit before I caught it but if it had gone I would have collected a car coming the other way.
I didn't hit black ice (although there was ice on the roads that day), I wasn't being over abventurous so why do I suffer so much understeer in the wet?
In the dry the car has never had a problem even on the track, and I have only fitted the front splitter in the last few weeks, and I am working on a rear spoiler, if I fit this will it get worse?
The car was set up by the factory and in the dry it is spot on, could it be the goodyear tyres that are no good in the wet?
Whilst doing 40mph round a sweeping bend the front went light with a little understeer, I eased out of it and the back went round, only went a bit before I caught it but if it had gone I would have collected a car coming the other way.
I didn't hit black ice (although there was ice on the roads that day), I wasn't being over abventurous so why do I suffer so much understeer in the wet?
In the dry the car has never had a problem even on the track, and I have only fitted the front splitter in the last few weeks, and I am working on a rear spoiler, if I fit this will it get worse?
The car was set up by the factory and in the dry it is spot on, could it be the goodyear tyres that are no good in the wet?
Look, let's nip this in the bud before we all get carried away.
It's not so much the power that gets you into trouble (especially in slippery conditions) it's the torque.
You are driving a SUPERCAR, yup, that's right - a supercar. So don't be surprised when it want's to buck you off an gallop into the distance!
In conditions like these (in the UK) treat the power with respect. Imagine that you've got Kylie on the bonnet and you're guaranteed a shag if she doesn't fall off!
These cars, in fact, all powerful cars in the wet can be tremendous fun because you can explore the handling envelope at much lower speeds than you can in the dry. My first racing experience in fact was at Donington IN THE SNOW! I'm one of the mad breed who actually LIKE the wet for racing because it demands far greater finesse with car control.
So, if you're not comfortable, I'd recommend something like the Don Palmer day at Mira to get used to the car in the wet (as shown on the Ultima site's video clips).
Or I'll come round your house and take you out in a Dutton Malaga B+ with Bakelite tyres - Guaranteed pant filler
It's not so much the power that gets you into trouble (especially in slippery conditions) it's the torque.
You are driving a SUPERCAR, yup, that's right - a supercar. So don't be surprised when it want's to buck you off an gallop into the distance!
In conditions like these (in the UK) treat the power with respect. Imagine that you've got Kylie on the bonnet and you're guaranteed a shag if she doesn't fall off!
These cars, in fact, all powerful cars in the wet can be tremendous fun because you can explore the handling envelope at much lower speeds than you can in the dry. My first racing experience in fact was at Donington IN THE SNOW! I'm one of the mad breed who actually LIKE the wet for racing because it demands far greater finesse with car control.
So, if you're not comfortable, I'd recommend something like the Don Palmer day at Mira to get used to the car in the wet (as shown on the Ultima site's video clips).
Or I'll come round your house and take you out in a Dutton Malaga B+ with Bakelite tyres - Guaranteed pant filler
I didn't hit black ice (although there was ice on the roads that day), I wasn't being over abventurous so why do I suffer so much understeer in the wet?
In the dry the car has never had a problem even on the track, and I have only fitted the front splitter in the last few weeks, and I am working on a rear spoiler, if I fit this will it get worse?
The car was set up by the factory and in the dry it is spot on, could it be the goodyear tyres that are no good in the wet?
You mention your recent fitting of a front splitter and your soon to be fitted rear wing. Can I ask, why did you fit the splitter in the first place? Had you experienced some problems?
Phil
Please note it wasn't the power of the car that got it out of shap, it was the understeer!
I fitted the spliter as I have been finding the car tends to understeer more than I would like in the wet.
It's a real shame as the car is perfect in the dry and as it stands there is now way I would push the car in the wet.
However after driving the car for a couple of hours in terential rain last night (by the way the hood works perfectly) I am possitive its that my tyres are no good in the wet!.
I may try putting some new sticky ones on the front.
I fitted the spliter as I have been finding the car tends to understeer more than I would like in the wet.
It's a real shame as the car is perfect in the dry and as it stands there is now way I would push the car in the wet.
However after driving the car for a couple of hours in terential rain last night (by the way the hood works perfectly) I am possitive its that my tyres are no good in the wet!.
I may try putting some new sticky ones on the front.
Personaly I would only fitt Goodyears. The front's you have a Chioce of F1's or the Factory Feranos, the rears your Stuck as you can not get any other 18" tyres apart from the Factory Feranos.
You can not get the Goodyear Feranos any where else apart from the Factory, a mate of mine was a Goodyear dealer and he could not get any.
I have 17" rims with F1 fronts and GSA assametrical rears. No problems so far with under steer in the wet.
Only problem suffered so far in the wet was Plane clothed Omega trying to catch me up. I did not know it was there and at the time was just blasting of the cobwebs, not a car in sight so I thorght.
Nice man let me off with a Producer, as in his words he could not judge what speed I was doing .Funny I can't remember either, but he was doing over 120 to catch me up. When he did I was only doing 60ish. oops
You can not get the Goodyear Feranos any where else apart from the Factory, a mate of mine was a Goodyear dealer and he could not get any.
I have 17" rims with F1 fronts and GSA assametrical rears. No problems so far with under steer in the wet.
Only problem suffered so far in the wet was Plane clothed Omega trying to catch me up. I did not know it was there and at the time was just blasting of the cobwebs, not a car in sight so I thorght.
Nice man let me off with a Producer, as in his words he could not judge what speed I was doing .Funny I can't remember either, but he was doing over 120 to catch me up. When he did I was only doing 60ish. oops
A large tire dealer here in North America posts the following tire survey ratings.
[url]www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/max.jsp|http://
Note the rating of the F1's in the wet.
My F1's are on order, but I see that Pirelli PZero Asimmetrico have a much better wet rating and they are available in Ultima sizes.. I also see that the P Zero Rosso will be available here the first of next year.
Jack
>> Edited by USCANAM on Sunday 22 December 23:42
[url]www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/max.jsp|http://
Note the rating of the F1's in the wet.
My F1's are on order, but I see that Pirelli PZero Asimmetrico have a much better wet rating and they are available in Ultima sizes.. I also see that the P Zero Rosso will be available here the first of next year.
Jack
>> Edited by USCANAM on Sunday 22 December 23:42
Have any of you fit the Michelin Pilot Sports? Tire rack gave them the 2nd highest rating according to the link below. I don't know if the rears would fit, but you can get pretty close to the Goodyear Eagle F1's.
Comparison:
Goodyear F1 GS-Fioranio Fronts: 245/35/18 Section Width 9.2" on 8.5" wide wheel. Inflated Diameter 24.7"
Michelin Pilot Sports Fronts: 235/35/18, Section Width 9.5" on 8.5" wide wheel. Inflated Diamter 24.4"
Goodyear F1 GS-Fioranio Rears:
335/30/18, Sect. Width 13.5" on 12" wide wheel. Inflated Diameter 25.9.
Michelin Pilot Sports Rears: 335/30/18, Sect. Width 13.5 on 12" wide wheel. 26.1" Inflated Diameter.
Pretty close, but I'm not sure if the rear diameter is too large.
Cheers!
-Mack
Comparison:
Goodyear F1 GS-Fioranio Fronts: 245/35/18 Section Width 9.2" on 8.5" wide wheel. Inflated Diameter 24.7"
Michelin Pilot Sports Fronts: 235/35/18, Section Width 9.5" on 8.5" wide wheel. Inflated Diamter 24.4"
Goodyear F1 GS-Fioranio Rears:
335/30/18, Sect. Width 13.5" on 12" wide wheel. Inflated Diameter 25.9.
Michelin Pilot Sports Rears: 335/30/18, Sect. Width 13.5 on 12" wide wheel. 26.1" Inflated Diameter.
Pretty close, but I'm not sure if the rear diameter is too large.
Cheers!
-Mack
Mack
Would you really want to go with a narrower front tire by using the Michelin Pilot? Thinking about the understeer problem.
Unfortunately, the Pilot is not made in the 245x35x18 size.I don't know how it is with the Sport, but I hear that front wheel size is critical with the GTR and CanAm for wheel clearance.
Upon seeing how bad the F1's are in the wet, I'm going to see if I can change my order over to the Pirelli Asimmetricos since the F1's are still on back order.
Jack
Would you really want to go with a narrower front tire by using the Michelin Pilot? Thinking about the understeer problem.
Unfortunately, the Pilot is not made in the 245x35x18 size.I don't know how it is with the Sport, but I hear that front wheel size is critical with the GTR and CanAm for wheel clearance.
Upon seeing how bad the F1's are in the wet, I'm going to see if I can change my order over to the Pirelli Asimmetricos since the F1's are still on back order.
Jack
I never go by the traditional stamped tire size. You just can't trust the manufacturer's size classifications. I've grown custom to only looking at inflated tire diameter and the inflated tire section width. Even though the 235 Michelin sounds narrower than the 245 Goodyear it has a wider section width 9.5" vs 9.2".
The sports is a little different story. We can't run 18" wheels without some pretty serious modifications to the bodywork. Most of the guys run 16" fronts and 17" rears, but I run a 17" front with a tire that matches the 16" tire's diam. and section width. My sports doesn't have a problem with understeer or oversteer. It out handles my old BMW M3.
Cheers!
-Mack
The sports is a little different story. We can't run 18" wheels without some pretty serious modifications to the bodywork. Most of the guys run 16" fronts and 17" rears, but I run a 17" front with a tire that matches the 16" tire's diam. and section width. My sports doesn't have a problem with understeer or oversteer. It out handles my old BMW M3.
Cheers!
-Mack
ultimaandy said: Please note it wasn't the power of the car that got it out of shap, it was the understeer!
I fitted the spliter as I have been finding the car tends to understeer more than I would like in the wet.
It's a real shame as the car is perfect in the dry and as it stands there is now way I would push the car in the wet.
However after driving the car for a couple of hours in terential rain last night (by the way the hood works perfectly) I am possitive its that my tyres are no good in the wet!.
I may try putting some new sticky ones on the front.
It sounds like a minor setup problem. The car has been set up for the dry, and the factory will have a fairly standard neutral setup that the use for the car which will give you a good starting point. However, everybody drives a bit differently, so what is good for one person isn't neccesarily good for everybody else. Your driving style in the wet obviously doesn't suit the setup that they've given you. That's why 2 racing drivers won't be able to drive each others cars well without doing a lot of work on changing the setup.
Also remember that a car will handle differently in the wet (as you have found out). In the wet, you generally want to go for a softer setup than in the dry.
It sounds to me like your front suspension is a bit too stiff in the wet. The best thing to do is to make a note of how it is set up currently, and then just soften the dampers off about 4 clicks. See if that's any better. If it is, make it a bit softer still, until you find the point where you're happiest.
I'd be very surprised if the problem was your tyres (unless you're using some sort of race tyre, or they're particularly worn). Remember that you have VERY wide tyres, and not an awful lot of weight. In the wet, you don't have much pressure on the tyre forcing it through the water, and into contact with tarmac. It's standard with all cars running wide tyres. They tend to aquaplane more easily that cars with skinny tyres.
The best advice that I can give you to solve your understeer problem in the wet is to use the old fashioned method of slowing down a bit. It may be a race car for the road, but you are driving it on the road, and so you should be driving well within the limits of the car at all times. I've driven a TVR Cerbera along uncleared snow and ice covered roads in the past, and I had no trouble whatsoever. It was simply a case of driving to the conditions.
James
Driving to the conditions is somthing I automatically do.
I have been driving my Rwd cossie with some 350+bhp come rain or snow for the last 9years, and in the wet I could walk all over the Ultima with its current characteristics.
And before you ask the cossie has coil overs as well which are set up for dry track and only 10mm diference in tyre width!
The reason I ask about the sports is that I have the same wheels as that car ie 17 rears and 16 fronts so my cars handling will be more in keeping with one of those.
I have been driving my Rwd cossie with some 350+bhp come rain or snow for the last 9years, and in the wet I could walk all over the Ultima with its current characteristics.
And before you ask the cossie has coil overs as well which are set up for dry track and only 10mm diference in tyre width!
The reason I ask about the sports is that I have the same wheels as that car ie 17 rears and 16 fronts so my cars handling will be more in keeping with one of those.
That could go some way to explaining your problem too. I'd say it was more likely yo be down to your setup as there are plenty of other Ultima's out there that don't have this problem.
A few questions regarding your setup:
What sort of transaxle are you running? Does it has LSD? Have you changed the ratios?
You mention that you're running 17" wheels. Did you know that the suspension geometry is designed around 18" wheels? This may be having an effect. Are they Ultima supplied wheels ie. have matching offsets etc.?
What tyres are you running. These will have a DRAMATIC effect on the cars ability to grip. Tyres also deteriorate with age - how old are they? If the car's standing around alot, it won't be doing the tyres any good either.
These can all contribute to the symptoms you're getting, none of which have anything to do with the 'design' of the car itself.
Maybe worth having a look at these points and see if some may be contributing to the problem you've got?
A few questions regarding your setup:
What sort of transaxle are you running? Does it has LSD? Have you changed the ratios?
You mention that you're running 17" wheels. Did you know that the suspension geometry is designed around 18" wheels? This may be having an effect. Are they Ultima supplied wheels ie. have matching offsets etc.?
What tyres are you running. These will have a DRAMATIC effect on the cars ability to grip. Tyres also deteriorate with age - how old are they? If the car's standing around alot, it won't be doing the tyres any good either.
These can all contribute to the symptoms you're getting, none of which have anything to do with the 'design' of the car itself.
Maybe worth having a look at these points and see if some may be contributing to the problem you've got?
Case closed 
I am running a LSD and have changed the ratios in my porsche box.
The Ultima was originally designed for 17in rear and 15-16in front, the 18in wheels were added when they changed the body to the GTR shape and they would then fit under the arches.
Thanks for all the advice, I think my next cause of action will be to knock the dampers on the front down from ten clicks to five. However I fear its the front tyres that are the problem.
James
What do you fit to your Sports on the front?
The Ultima was originally designed for 17in rear and 15-16in front, the 18in wheels were added when they changed the body to the GTR shape and they would then fit under the arches.
Thanks for all the advice, I think my next cause of action will be to knock the dampers on the front down from ten clicks to five. However I fear its the front tyres that are the problem.
James
What do you fit to your Sports on the front?
I very much agree with Stig's comments. And would add that the LSD characteristics are important. I see you are running LSD which will have certain complex characteristics. My guess is that, along with other things, the LSD is playing a part in what you are experiencing in the damp/wet. Did Teds car have LSD fitted when the videos were done?
Splitter being aero does not have much influence at low speed - and by that I mean the speed at which aquaplaning is a certainty. I would not dream of saying that what you experienced was aquaplaning though 'cos you say it wasn't!
To be controversial (here goes!)I would be worried about any changes to aero for the road on these cars 'cos they have worked hard to get it right in design at the factory. Aero changes can not only change high speed dynamics but dynamic behaviour under high speed braking.
Back to the problem in hand. If I were you, I would be more interested in changing the shocks at the front to softer, but this needs careful testing.
Changing the tyre rolling diameters will have changed the chassis kinematics and could be particularly noticable on damp surfaces as the behaviour is bound to be different to the excellent dry behaviour you have commented on in the past.
Your observations of the cossie's behavious in the wet is very interesting (and agree with my cossie albeit with less power) but the chassis dynamics are truely different to the Canam along with the tyre type and size differences.
Splitter being aero does not have much influence at low speed - and by that I mean the speed at which aquaplaning is a certainty. I would not dream of saying that what you experienced was aquaplaning though 'cos you say it wasn't!
To be controversial (here goes!)I would be worried about any changes to aero for the road on these cars 'cos they have worked hard to get it right in design at the factory. Aero changes can not only change high speed dynamics but dynamic behaviour under high speed braking.
Back to the problem in hand. If I were you, I would be more interested in changing the shocks at the front to softer, but this needs careful testing.
Changing the tyre rolling diameters will have changed the chassis kinematics and could be particularly noticable on damp surfaces as the behaviour is bound to be different to the excellent dry behaviour you have commented on in the past.
Your observations of the cossie's behavious in the wet is very interesting (and agree with my cossie albeit with less power) but the chassis dynamics are truely different to the Canam along with the tyre type and size differences.
Just for some closure on this.
It's sorted, thanks all for the advice (especially BIGMACK).
I used it yesterday (300 miles in wet and icy conditions) and the car is transformed.
I now know what was wrong,
Knowing what a 'boy racer' I was, the factory set the suspension up for that XR3i feel!
Seriously though it was set up for track use at my request (I forgot) and needed 'tweeking' back for road use.
Doh...
It's sorted, thanks all for the advice (especially BIGMACK).
I used it yesterday (300 miles in wet and icy conditions) and the car is transformed.
I now know what was wrong,
Knowing what a 'boy racer' I was, the factory set the suspension up for that XR3i feel!
Seriously though it was set up for track use at my request (I forgot) and needed 'tweeking' back for road use.
Doh...
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