More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t

[Crackie]

TonyRPH said:

@crackie (David) I view it this way.

The mains regenerator is ultimately a dedicated 50 (or 60) Hz amplifier / power oscillator.

So for it to produce low noise and low THD, it too would need a clean mains source.

They magically clean up the 'dirty' mains, using that same 'dirty' mains as their power source, but why aren't they themselves affected by the dirty mains?

After all, they will need a standard power supply derived from the mains to kick start the whole process, and then said dirty mains is used to generate 'clean' mains.

I realise they don't need the bandwidth of an audio device, and circuit design is ultimately far more simple (in relative terms).

But I still don't see it.

As I've stated previously in this thread, in a scenario where the mains is really bad - then perhaps yes - but if the mains was *that* bad, then all other devices connected to it would suffer one way or another - overheated transformers (caused by DC on the mains) overheated motors (caused by harmonic distortion) and so on.

And yet all the people that seem to need regenerators don't seem to suffer from constant appliance failures...

Not to mention computers that would continually crash if the mains was that bad - but they just don't, because it's not bad enough.

Until somebody can demonstrate the benefits to me in my presence (both in measured performance terms and audible terms) I'll have to step away from the debate.

ETA: With a lot of kit, it's actually possible to interrupt the mains for very brief periods (micro seconds) with no apparent detriment to performance, and yet we have all the above...

Oh well....

Hi Tony,
I get that you are sceptical and understand why you might want to step away from the debate.

Its important for you to understand the method by which the PS audio products synthesize their 'perfectwave' AC waveform prior to feeding it to the big power stages. Once you know that, I think you'll get it. The part in bold above makes some incorrect assumptions.

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 23 May 23:53

[TonyRPH]

Crackie said:

<snip>The part in bold above makes some incorrect assumptions.

I Think you forgot the bold!

EDIT: @crackie - do you have some connection with PS Audio?

[Crackie]

TonyRPH said:

Crackie said:

<snip>The part in bold above makes some incorrect assumptions.

I Think you forgot the bold!

EDIT: @crackie - do you have some connection with PS Audio?

Oops...….I did put the instruction at the start of the first and the end of the second paragraphs but didn't realise you had to 'bold' each of the paragraphs individually.

No I don't have any connection to PS Audio Earlier in the thread I mentioned products from Accuphase and Isotek. Here is a review of a mains regeneration product made by Isotek https://hifipig.com/isotek-super-titan-and-genesis...

The reviewer was initially a complete sceptic, much like yourself. He is now a convert and an advocate. I've seen other critics who consider the mains regenerators they use are the second most influential component in their systems ( after their speakers ).

Here is a compilation of Isotek reviews ( The subjective conclusions are compelling ). You'll probably be most interested in the very last review ( page 73 of 76 ) which contains some test measurements; these were conducted by Keith Howard, one of the most respected technical reviewers in the industry. In this case, the product was able to generate a solid 230v output with only 0.32% THD when fed with incoming mains containing over 7% THD. ( 22 x lower distortion ). https://www.isoteksystems.com/downloads/brochure/I...

My contention is that during the early hours of the morning the mains doesn't carry the significant distortion components it is plagued with during the daytime. In my experience the differences are measurable and easily audible. The subjective difference does depend upon how clean the mains is in the area where you live; I think Huntingdon in Cambs was poor due to the number of engineering facilities on the various industrial estates in the town.

Edited by Crackie on Friday 24th May 08:45

[bristolracer]

A question for you noise gurus if I may.......

I currently use a tidal account on my pc which in turn feeds into a Cambridge audio dac via USB and then into my naim amp via rca.

I am getting pc noise, when scrolling on the pc you can hear noise in time with the mouse, even when the pc is idling you will still hear digital noise.

If I unplug the USB I get no noise so I guess its not an rf issue and I'm not sure it's ground loop as it's not a hum type sound.

If I replaced the sound card with an optical output one would it help or I am I always going to get activity noise generated by the pc?

Would I be better off spending on a music server rather than asking a pc to be jack of all trades?

Sorry for the hijack but you guys seem to have a better handle on the causes of noise than I do

[Angrybiker]

bristolracer said:

A question for you noise gurus if I may.......

I currently use a tidal account on my pc which in turn feeds into a Cambridge audio dac via USB and then into my naim amp via rca.

I am getting pc noise, when scrolling on the pc you can hear noise in time with the mouse, even when the pc is idling you will still hear digital noise.

If I unplug the USB I get no noise so I guess its not an rf issue and I'm not sure it's ground loop as it's not a hum type sound.

If I replaced the sound card with an optical output one would it help or I am I always going to get activity noise generated by the pc?

Would I be better off spending on a music server rather than asking a pc to be jack of all trades?

Sorry for the hijack but you guys seem to have a better handle on the causes of noise than I do

I can help you here. You do not have to buy a server. I have a PC media centre, using Kodi for films, Jriver for music and I thus also have the flexibility of youtube, Netflix, Skype, etc. etc.- and I'm feeding into a very expensive system and I'm very happy with it.

PC's are generally very noisy. There are several things you can do to clean up the signal - doing all of these will also take a little harshness out of the sound too. Noise here is chiefly caused by two things - firstly power supply and secondly the mess of internal circuits. Some or all of these things would help to some extent or other although I can't say whether any one or two would definitely solve it. - though probably step 1 and 2 will get you most of the way.

Step1 - get a linear power supply for your PC; you can custom build one with your library on SD; low or no graphics card, etc. The less you can get away with in terms of internal components the better. Spinning hard drive = noise. super graphics card = heat, magnetic fields = noise. Long unshielded network cable (yes even that) = noise. unshielded USB cables = noise. Everything causes noise so have as little of everything as possible. You can also go as far as stripped down windows builds to avoid any messing around with audio that windows does.

Step 2 - separate the it from the main equipment as far as you can (mine's on the other side of a wall)

Step 3 - To reduce noise from interference on the USB use an optical out (no not SPDIF, a proper wide bandwidth optical like they'd use to connect to your house)

Step 4 - Put in an optical to USB converter next to your DAC (powered by a linear PSU); and if you like reclock the USB with a Regen or something

Step 5 - nice USB cable into your DAC. There are some nice previously very expensive second hand USB cables out there


Speak to a chap called Mark at Item Audio, he's one of the few in the country who's invested a lot of time into understanding all this and knows this stuff backwards. There may be others but I couldn't find them. You can do as little or as much as you want here and spend anywhere from a few hundred to a couple of thousand.

[Coolbanana]

Crackie said:

...
My contention is that during the early hours of the morning the mains doesn't carry the significant distortion components it is plagued with during the daytime. In my experience the differences are measurable and easily audible. The subjective difference does depend upon how clean the mains is in the area where you live; I think Huntingdon in Cambs was poor due to the number of engineering facilities on the various industrial estates in the town.

Edited by Crackie on Friday 24th May 08:45

I'm no audio expert but I did have the pleasure of speaking to a few who installed a very high-end system into a home I was working on a few years ago - circa £250k for the cinema and similar for the house reference audio.

They talked about AC 'noise' as manifesting itself not so much in audible terms but as 'haze' through components and it varied throughout the day, dependant upon local grid loads, switching etc.

I was sceptical - my Client, a very wealthy young IT millionaire was too albeit happy to splash his cash regardless. Anyway, during the installation, we heard the system in a state where they claimed no compensation was being made and after and even to our untrained ears, the difference was clear - literally! It wasn't night and day clear, but perceptible. 'Haze' was a good description; it wasn't noise per se, but a definite dulling of the whole.

[TonyRPH]

Angrybiker said:

<snip>

PC's are generally very noisy. There are several things you can do to clean up the signal - doing all of these will also take a little harshness out of the sound too. Noise here is chiefly caused by two things - firstly power supply and secondly the mess of internal circuits. Some or all of these things would help to some extent or other although I can't say whether any one or two would definitely solve it. - though probably step 1 and 2 will get you most of the way.

I have a bog standard Intel i3 with a "noisy" graphics card adjacent to my sound cars (Asus Xonar STX) (with both an SDD *and* a spinning HDD).

This is the noise spectrum measured via my PC.



I don't call a -160dB* noise floor noisy.

Angrybiker said:

Step1 - get a linear power supply for your PC;
<snip>

If you like high power consumption, and lots of heat then yes, do this.

Angrybiker said:

<snip>
you can custom build one with your library on SD; low or no graphics card, etc. The less you can get away with in terms of internal components the better. Spinning hard drive = noise. super graphics card = heat, magnetic fields = noise. Long unshielded network cable (yes even that) = noise. unshielded USB cables = noise. Everything causes noise so have as little of everything as possible. You can also go as far as stripped down windows builds to avoid any messing around with audio that windows does.

Mostly good advice - non need to prune Windows services, it makes no difference to my noise levels.

Angrybiker said:

Step 2 - separate the it from the main equipment as far as you can (mine's on the other side of a wall)

Strictly speaking, not necessary. All computer hardware has to meet FCC standards for RF emissions. If you have a PC that is radiating RF then either something is wrong with it, it is overclocked, or a particular componenet doe snot meet FCC regulations.

Angrybiker said:

Step 3 - To reduce noise from interference on the USB use an optical out (no not SPDIF, a proper wide bandwidth optical like they'd use to connect to your house)

Using fancy cables for optical SPDIF will not make a shred of difference. A decent cable will transmit the light regardless, and the speed limitations will still exist. If you want fast transmission, then you will need to incorporate some other optical standard into your SPDIF interface.

Angrybiker said:

Step 4 - Put in an optical to USB converter next to your DAC (powered by a linear PSU); and if you like reclock the USB with a Regen or something

I'm sure you mean a USB to SPDIF converter with reclocking? A Topping D10 would be perfect here.

Angrybiker said:

Step 5 - nice USB cable into your DAC. There are some nice previously very expensive second hand USB cables out there

A 28/24 AWG USB cable such as this one will be fine.

• there are some caveats attached to this figure, the technical details of which I won't get into here.

@bristolracer

With regard to ground loops and digital - a ground loop will not always result in a hum, but more of a hissing / scratching type of sound.

I think it's likely that your Naim amp is grounded to mains ground, and of course your PC is grounded to mains ground.

The DAC sits in the middle - it's RCA sockets grounded by the amp, and USB grounded by the PC.

In any DAC, the analogue audio and digital grounds are kept separate and are usually linked at a central point somewhere in the onboard power supply.

But the earth loop is circumventing this, resulting in digital hash that you are hearing.

It is for this reason that many coaxial SPDIF inputs are isolated with a tiny transformer, to prevent ground loops.

I would suggest trying a USB to SPDIF converter, and then using the optical output into the DAC - or - a USB isolator.

I have one of these Chinese USB / SPDIF converters - I have highlighted the isolating transformer I mentioned above.

[Angrybiker]

Soundcard for PC output, un-necessary and noisy. I think we have different definitions of the term noise. If you add anything at all to a signal path you will affect that signal. The longer it is and the more stuff you put it through the bigger the effect. All electrical current generates magnetic fields and that affects impedance / integrity of or nearby signal paths.

If FCC standards are in your lexicon then we're not quite at the same level. Government standards were not driven from audiophile objectives. (I also built my house to much higher than official British Standards and I'm very glad I did).

I meant wide bandwidth optical converted to USB, then reclock the USB, and use asynchronous USB as the input to the DAC. I'm not going to get into a debate on the best input for a DAC. In most people's view it's asynchronous USB (or AES) however if you are happy with for example a cap of 16 bit or 24/192 then it's fine for your purpose. It does in fact make a difference. I know because I heard it, and my non-audiophile Mrs also heard it, and all the people who come round and are interested to listen have also heard it.

I would not go near that USB cable for anything other than charging my phone, for high fidelity audio I perceived a difference. I'm sure MP3s are 'fine' and 'will do' for most people, too.

Look all this stuff is 'un-necessary'. You can produce music perfectly 'fine' using the most basic equipment. Anything more than a Fiat 500 is 'un-necessary', it gets you from A-B. Having a coffee machine is 'un-necessary', there's no difference between coffee from the office machine and coffee from your home grinder. Making ice-cream yourself with fresh and organic ingredients is 'un-necessary', the store bought stuff is much better. etc...

But do the little tweaks make a difference? Absolutely yes, if the rest of your system isn't so bad as to overwhelm the differences with their own flaws; and if you perceive the difference in your improved enjoyment of the music is worth the money. Each to their own. I did all my stuff because when I listened it made a difference. I'm not into pissing money away on stuff that doesn't do anything, or to show off to anyone that I have expensive stuff. I don't care about any critiques to my system or personal perception. All I care about is how I feel when I listen to music. I'll happily share what I did what I experienced as a result. I have my own limits on where I draw the line and what I can perceive, everyone else will be different.

[TonyRPH]

Angrybiker said:

Soundcard for PC output, un-necessary and noisy. I think we have different definitions of the term noise. If you add anything at all to a signal path you will affect that signal. The longer it is and the more stuff you put it through the bigger the effect. All electrical current generates magnetic fields and that affects impedance / integrity of or nearby signal paths.

I don't remember suggesting using a sound card for PC output, however the specs below totally destroy your theory.

Asus Xonar Essence STX SPEC:

Audio Performance
Output Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):
124dB for Front-out
117dB for Headphone-out (600ohms) dB
Input Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):
118 dB
Output THD+N at 1kHz:
0.0003% (-110dB) for Front-out
0.001% (-100dB) for Headphone-out
Input THD+N at 1kHz:
0.0002% (-113dB) for Line-in
Frequency Response (-3dB, 24-bit/192kHz input):
<10Hz to 90KHz
Output/Input Full-Scale Voltage
2 Vrms (5.65 Vp-p)

This card also samples right up to 192kHz (it's about 5 - 6years old IIRC)

Angrybiker said:

I think we have different definitions of the term noise.

I'm referring to any kind of noise. Noise is noise, regardless of the source.

Angrybiker said:

If you add anything at all to a signal path you will affect that signal. The longer it is and the more stuff you put it through the bigger the effect. All electrical current generates magnetic fields and that affects impedance / integrity of or nearby signal paths.

Stating the obvious here.....

As for the rest of your post, just "lol".

That is all.

[silentbrown]

bristolracer said:

I am getting pc noise, when scrolling on the pc you can hear noise in time with the mouse, even when the pc is idling you will still hear digital noise.

Before you start worrying about linear power supplies and similar guff, does the headphone output on your PC show the same problem?

Also try using a (generic!) analog cable direct from PC to amp - does *that* have the same problem?

I'm not proposing these as "audiophile solutions" to your problem, just some basic tests that point you in the right direction.

[Crackie]

Coolbanana said:

Crackie said:

...
My contention is that during the early hours of the morning the mains doesn't carry the significant distortion components it is plagued with during the daytime. In my experience the differences are measurable and easily audible. The subjective difference does depend upon how clean the mains is in the area where you live; I think Huntingdon in Cambs was poor due to the number of engineering facilities on the various industrial estates in the town.

Edited by Crackie on Friday 24th May 08:45

I'm no audio expert but I did have the pleasure of speaking to a few who installed a very high-end system into a home I was working on a few years ago - circa £250k for the cinema and similar for the house reference audio.

They talked about AC 'noise' as manifesting itself not so much in audible terms but as 'haze' through components and it varied throughout the day, dependant upon local grid loads, switching etc.

I was sceptical - my Client, a very wealthy young IT millionaire was too albeit happy to splash his cash regardless. Anyway, during the installation, we heard the system in a state where they claimed no compensation was being made and after and even to our untrained ears, the difference was clear - literally! It wasn't night and day clear, but perceptible. 'Haze' was a good description; it wasn't noise per se, but a definite dulling of the whole.

Interesting CB, thanks for the post. Good to know that both you and the client thought the improvements were clear and perceptible despite being sceptical at first.

I'm not living in Huntingdon anymore and haven't gone down the regenerator route ( yet ). Mains quality here in N Yorks appears to be better than Huntingdon was; the 'hash' or 'haze' isn't as severe here during the day and evening. The active system I use has several Rotel power amps so the the regenerator would need to capable of delivering well over 2000w continuously and 2750w on peaks. The only one I've seen that fits the bill is the PS Audio P20 and its hard to justify the £10,500 cost.

Edited by Crackie on Friday 24th May 14:13

Edited by Crackie on Friday 24th May 15:42

[Angrybiker]

TonyRPH said:

Angrybiker said:

Soundcard for PC output, un-necessary and noisy. I think we have different definitions of the term noise. If you add anything at all to a signal path you will affect that signal. The longer it is and the more stuff you put it through the bigger the effect. All electrical current generates magnetic fields and that affects impedance / integrity of or nearby signal paths.

I don't remember suggesting using a sound card for PC output, however the specs below totally destroy your theory.

Asus Xonar Essence STX SPEC:

Audio Performance
Output Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):
124dB for Front-out
117dB for Headphone-out (600ohms) dB
Input Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):
118 dB
Output THD+N at 1kHz:
0.0003% (-110dB) for Front-out
0.001% (-100dB) for Headphone-out
Input THD+N at 1kHz:
0.0002% (-113dB) for Line-in
Frequency Response (-3dB, 24-bit/192kHz input):
<10Hz to 90KHz
Output/Input Full-Scale Voltage
2 Vrms (5.65 Vp-p)

This card also samples right up to 192kHz (it's about 5 - 6years old IIRC)

Angrybiker said:

I think we have different definitions of the term noise.

I'm referring to any kind of noise. Noise is noise, regardless of the source.

Angrybiker said:

If you add anything at all to a signal path you will affect that signal. The longer it is and the more stuff you put it through the bigger the effect. All electrical current generates magnetic fields and that affects impedance / integrity of or nearby signal paths.

Stating the obvious here.....

As for the rest of your post, just "lol".

That is all.

As I said, each to their own. I'm sure I would "lol" at the sound from your system; and I'm sure you would not, at the sound of mine.

That is all.

[TonyRPH]

Angrybiker said:

<snip>
I'm sure I would "lol" at the sound from your system
<snip>

You are probably right - however I'm happy with it and I've spent less than a 4 figure sum getting there.

[Angrybiker]

TonyRPH said:

Angrybiker said:

<snip>
I'm sure I would "lol" at the sound from your system
<snip>

You are probably right - however I'm happy with it and I've spent less than a 4 figure sum getting there.

AS I SAID - Each to their own. if it floats your boat, bully for you. I spent more and I found that I got a lot more pleasure from my music than I did when I had a cheap system. Bully for me too. Just don't to try to 'out electronic engineer' me with bullst that anything more than your cheap system is nonsense. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns and some snake oil at the far extreme end of hi-fi. This thread is essentially about that but mate if you're using a soundcard then you're about a million miles from snake oil territory.

[TonyRPH]

Angrybiker said:

<snip>
Just don't to try to 'out electronic engineer' me with bullst that anything more than your cheap system is nonsense.
<snip>

I wasn't trying to do this at all - I was just stating facts as I see them, from an engineering point of view.

Angrybiker said:

There is definitely a point of diminishing returns and some snake oil at the far extreme end of hi-fi. This thread is essentially about that but mate if you're using a soundcard then you're about a million miles from snake oil territory.

Completely agree about diminishing returns.

No, I'm not using a sound card for my main system - not quite sure how you reached that conclusion.

For reference my system is:
Intel NUC with custom Linux (Debian) ---> USB ---> Topping D10 ---> Home brewed DAC ---> Home Brew preamp --> Rotel RB06 ---> Dynaudio 52.

I use a sound card for audio measurements, in the absence of having sufficient funds to purchase an Audio Precision of some sort.

[hman]

Get a room you two

Anyway, in my localish hi-fi shop in melbourne hdmi cables at $4,450aud a pop for a 1m cable - or nearly $15k (aud) for an 8m cable

https://www.melbournehifi.com.au/collections/hdmi-...

Edited by hman on Friday 24th May 14:35

[Angrybiker]

lol - Thankyou, trusty Aussie dude, for bringing us back to earth.

Now THAT, is definitely within my definition of snake oil. I bought a £120-ish HDMI while I was upgrading, because what the hell, and I have to say I didn't notice any difference at all between that and an old stock £25 cable. Perhaps I need this one to see the richer colours..

[Jobbo]

Crackie said:

I'm not living in Huntingdon anymore and haven't gone down the regenerator route ( yet ). Mains quality here in N Yorks appears to be better than Huntingdon was; the 'hash' or 'haze' isn't as severe here during the day and evening.

How are you accounting for the difference in your listening room? That alone would make vastly more difference than any minor tweaks to your system by way of cables, mains isolation etc.

[gizlaroc]

Bristolracer, all these work well.


https://ifi-audio.com/home-2/digital/






TonyRPH.

How do you know you're measuring the right things?


You know, to come to the conclusions you have come to, how do you know you that the things you are measuring are the only things that effect sound?

[TonyRPH]

gizlaroc said:

<snip>

TonyRPH.

How do you know you're measuring the right things?

You know, to come to the conclusions you have come to, how do you know you that the things you are measuring are the only things that effect sound?

The discussion was centred around noise* from the mains.

I'm measuring noise - what else is there to measure in relation to the discussion?

Mains regen / mains cables won't change the frequency response of the system...

Additionally (both in theory and in my own experience and that of others) the things I have been measuring won't affect the sound anyway...

However I sense the debate is about to enter the circular phase (if it hasn't done so already) so I suggest we just leave it at that.

It's kind of like religion isn't it? You either believe or you don't.

• noise including distortion etc.