More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
OutInTheShed said:
As not all CD players sound the same, clearly they're not all perfect.
Conversely, if we're allowing the possibility of a perfect CD player, no turntable can be perfect. An ideal turntable cannot be as accurate to the studio master as an ideal CD player can be.Still, those crystal resonators on USB cables, eh?
Sporky said:
Conversely, if we're allowing the possibility of a perfect CD player, no turntable can be perfect. An ideal turntable cannot be as accurate to the studio master as an ideal CD player can be.
..
But the talented record producer knows this, and is creating a disc which will sound as he wants, when played on a suitable deck...
The master is not the goal, it is just a step in the process.
It's a bit different if the source music is say an orchestra, where the goal is clearly reproducing a real sound.
People forget how good vinyl can be, and that listening in a real home, on real speakers, with real background noise, the theoretical SINAD etc is buried by the noise of traffic two streets away
It's not for me, because I want something which lasts and a fairly good CD player is probably cheaper than a top end gramophone.
I posed my question not cork sniffing, but for the fact that the way music is compressed on vinyl and tape has a satisfaction missing on digital formats, that for some styles of music adds a lot to how good it sounds
And I don't mean that it's not possible to make your digital recording, played through a digital medium, sound like a tape or a record to a degree, because it is - I mean that in general there is a lovely soft thump to vinyl and a lovely saturation of hot inputs to tape, combined with a low and high frequency roll-off, that sounds absolutely sensational on electronic music (house/techno/electro). Given the music was originally MADE for vinyl format, it's probably no surprise that many of us from that era prefer it when listening to that type of music - it adds something that is nigh on impossible to replicate using plug-ins
I say that as someone with a "pro" home studio, with most of the kit the experts use except for the expensive outboard compressors and EQs they would typically used to master. I have 30 high quality A/Ds and 28 D/As - I find it hilarious folk spend hundreds/thousands of pounds on a single D/A when a grands worth of pro studio equipment has 8 of the same convertors in it
I self-master (badly, Im no sound engineer, even though I produce my own music) and it was really interesting to me recently how different my song sounded on vinyl, as it went through a (required) vinyl mastering process before being pressed - sounds really different because of the limitations of the medium.
There is a new bit of snake oil at the moment doing the rounds, MQA, which is meant to reproduce 96K recording mechanisms in 44K. Like most new ideas, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny of the theory ....
And I don't mean that it's not possible to make your digital recording, played through a digital medium, sound like a tape or a record to a degree, because it is - I mean that in general there is a lovely soft thump to vinyl and a lovely saturation of hot inputs to tape, combined with a low and high frequency roll-off, that sounds absolutely sensational on electronic music (house/techno/electro). Given the music was originally MADE for vinyl format, it's probably no surprise that many of us from that era prefer it when listening to that type of music - it adds something that is nigh on impossible to replicate using plug-ins
I say that as someone with a "pro" home studio, with most of the kit the experts use except for the expensive outboard compressors and EQs they would typically used to master. I have 30 high quality A/Ds and 28 D/As - I find it hilarious folk spend hundreds/thousands of pounds on a single D/A when a grands worth of pro studio equipment has 8 of the same convertors in it
I self-master (badly, Im no sound engineer, even though I produce my own music) and it was really interesting to me recently how different my song sounded on vinyl, as it went through a (required) vinyl mastering process before being pressed - sounds really different because of the limitations of the medium.
There is a new bit of snake oil at the moment doing the rounds, MQA, which is meant to reproduce 96K recording mechanisms in 44K. Like most new ideas, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny of the theory ....
nebpor said:
I posed my question not cork sniffing, but for the fact that the way music is compressed on vinyl and tape has a satisfaction missing on digital formats, that for some styles of music adds a lot to how good it sounds
And I don't mean that it's not possible to make your digital recording, played through a digital medium, sound like a tape or a record to a degree, because it is - I mean that in general there is a lovely soft thump to vinyl and a lovely saturation of hot inputs to tape, combined with a low and high frequency roll-off, that sounds absolutely sensational on electronic music (house/techno/electro). Given the music was originally MADE for vinyl format, it's probably no surprise that many of us from that era prefer it when listening to that type of music - it adds something that is nigh on impossible to replicate using plug-ins
I say that as someone with a "pro" home studio, with most of the kit the experts use except for the expensive outboard compressors and EQs they would typically used to master. I have 30 high quality A/Ds and 28 D/As - I find it hilarious folk spend hundreds/thousands of pounds on a single D/A when a grands worth of pro studio equipment has 8 of the same convertors in it
I self-master (badly, Im no sound engineer, even though I produce my own music) and it was really interesting to me recently how different my song sounded on vinyl, as it went through a (required) vinyl mastering process before being pressed - sounds really different because of the limitations of the medium.
There is a new bit of snake oil at the moment doing the rounds, MQA, which is meant to reproduce 96K recording mechanisms in 44K. Like most new ideas, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny of the theory ....
MQA, in my opinion was an answer where there wasn’t a problem.And I don't mean that it's not possible to make your digital recording, played through a digital medium, sound like a tape or a record to a degree, because it is - I mean that in general there is a lovely soft thump to vinyl and a lovely saturation of hot inputs to tape, combined with a low and high frequency roll-off, that sounds absolutely sensational on electronic music (house/techno/electro). Given the music was originally MADE for vinyl format, it's probably no surprise that many of us from that era prefer it when listening to that type of music - it adds something that is nigh on impossible to replicate using plug-ins
I say that as someone with a "pro" home studio, with most of the kit the experts use except for the expensive outboard compressors and EQs they would typically used to master. I have 30 high quality A/Ds and 28 D/As - I find it hilarious folk spend hundreds/thousands of pounds on a single D/A when a grands worth of pro studio equipment has 8 of the same convertors in it
I self-master (badly, Im no sound engineer, even though I produce my own music) and it was really interesting to me recently how different my song sounded on vinyl, as it went through a (required) vinyl mastering process before being pressed - sounds really different because of the limitations of the medium.
There is a new bit of snake oil at the moment doing the rounds, MQA, which is meant to reproduce 96K recording mechanisms in 44K. Like most new ideas, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny of the theory ....
Some commented that it was nothing more than digital watermarking and/or a nice pension fund for the Meridian boss who developed it.
I speak in the past tense because:
https://www.creditman.co.uk/company-notices/compan...
Could signal even more problems for Tidal.
Miserablegit said:
Spleen said:
I must admit the ritual of pouring a cheeky one and putting a record on is a jolly pleasant thing indeed. My particular favourite is an Old Fashioned with Miles Davis' Kind of Blue.
I forgo the Old Fashioned but as soon as I get to the office Kind of Blue goes onto the turntable. In fact I listened to it twice on Tuesday so it’s still sitting there for my return today. Rituals are good things.nebpor said:
911hope said:
Vinyl / Turntables are better than uncompressed digital formats. Widely Believed but wrong.
Why are they wrong? Better is a subjective term Many people believe vinyl and tape recordings sound better
Then consider that the performance varies at different parts of the disk (inner, Vs outer) and the performance gets worse the more it is played.
If you can overlook all of this and the clicks and hiss and still prefer it. That's your opinion and it is valid. It is not an assessment of better.
Better is best when objectively assessed.
Distortion (thd and intermod)
SNR
Dynamic range
Channel separation
Linearity
All of these will show a huge differences. Not in favour of plastic disks with wiggly grooves.
I enjoy playing my records. It’s a lovely ritualistic and relaxing way to listen to music. I’ve built up a system which makes a sound I enjoy.
Is it a perfect representation of the original recording or performance? No, of course not. But no system is. Even if your lossless digital file comprises data representing frequencies from 1-100,000 Hz or more, it’s probably still not exactly what the instruments created (unless they were all digital…). Then you are at the mercy of your DAC and any non-linearity in amplifiers and speakers/headphones.
I think it’s daft to strive for ‘perfect’ reproduction. I do think it’s worth going to the effort for decent quality digital reproduction, higher bitrates and lossless (where necessary, ways imho when out running or wearing Bluetooth headphones) but I think it’s better to choose equipment who like the sound of and not to worry about how accurate it is.
Is it a perfect representation of the original recording or performance? No, of course not. But no system is. Even if your lossless digital file comprises data representing frequencies from 1-100,000 Hz or more, it’s probably still not exactly what the instruments created (unless they were all digital…). Then you are at the mercy of your DAC and any non-linearity in amplifiers and speakers/headphones.
I think it’s daft to strive for ‘perfect’ reproduction. I do think it’s worth going to the effort for decent quality digital reproduction, higher bitrates and lossless (where necessary, ways imho when out running or wearing Bluetooth headphones) but I think it’s better to choose equipment who like the sound of and not to worry about how accurate it is.
Spleen said:
Hmm. Next time I play a record (a real one with grooves and stuff), I shall kill my wife and see if that improves the noise floor.
You would need to have two identical listening environments and two identical wives. Except for the being alive bit. And probably not know which one was alive or dead.
I may be overthinking this.
Spleen said:
Miserablegit said:
Spleen said:
I must admit the ritual of pouring a cheeky one and putting a record on is a jolly pleasant thing indeed. My particular favourite is an Old Fashioned with Miles Davis' Kind of Blue.
I forgo the Old Fashioned but as soon as I get to the office Kind of Blue goes onto the turntable. In fact I listened to it twice on Tuesday so it’s still sitting there for my return today. Rituals are good things.Goes well in a Manhattan in Harrys bar, NY
nebpor said:
I say that as someone with a "pro" home studio, with most of the kit the experts use except for the expensive outboard compressors and EQs they would typically used to master. I have 30 high quality A/Ds and 28 D/As - I find it hilarious folk spend hundreds/thousands of pounds on a single D/A when a grands worth of pro studio equipment has 8 of the same convertors in it
Good for you but you won't get 8x Chord DACs in a rack for £1k. I think we should just agree that recording studios have a different set of requirements to a living room hifi. There are lots of very clever people around, outside the BS world, who would’ve been spreading the word decades ago if it was genuinely the case that all we needed for audio nirvana at home was £2k of stuff bought from a studio’s closing down auction.
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