More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t.

More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t.

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Discussion

Deva Link

26,934 posts

194 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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Through work, we know someone in this industry and they were losing business by refusing to "burn-in" cables because they think it's horsest. So they offer it now.

IforB

6,606 posts

178 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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Now that's something that confuses the hell out of me. Burning in cables? What is it supposed to actually do?

Running in speakers is one thing, but cables? Methinks that some people have their intelligence to Money ratio a bit wrong.

Adrian W

11,357 posts

177 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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custodian said:
Good post.

I have a good system, very definitely high end.

Like most people, I've tried many tweaks and upgrades. They fall into three camps
No change
Make sound "better"
Make sound "worse"

Better and worse are inevitably subjective terms.

Examples

I bought a pair of super tweeters which seemed idiotic since my upper hearing limit is 12khz. Result was worsening of sound by confusing stereo image. Why?

Bought several highly regarded mains cables. Result worse because sound seemed "strangled"

Bought Finite Elemente stands, result significant improvement (to an all digital system). Why?

Bought mains regenerator. No change!


So, I don't think the placebo effect is relevant here.

For reference, current system is
Aurender s10
DCS Scarlatti
Halcro dm88
Rockport Mira grand
Siltech Signature cables
Finite Elemente stands
Dedicated 30amp mains spur
Interesting , I use Neat MFS'S and they depend on the super tweeters, they have two on top of each speaker, I blew one, as an experiment I tried them without, like you I shouldn't be able to hear them, but the sound was a lot smaller without them.

I know the people at DCS very well, have you heard the Vivaldi yet?

hidetheelephants

15,234 posts

142 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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Deva Link said:
Through work, we know someone in this industry and they were losing business by refusing to "burn-in" cables because they think it's horsest. So they offer it now.
IforB said:
Now that's something that confuses the hell out of me. Burning in cables? What is it supposed to actually do?

Running in speakers is one thing, but cables? Methinks that some people have their intelligence to Money ratio a bit wrong.
Sounds like a productive niche; 'what do you do for living?' 'I burn in cables for credulous poltroons'

I think that to do it complete justice you'd have to offer bespoke service; cables burned entirely with Coltrane and Parker for Jazz listeners, Booker T & the MGs and Al Green for Memphis Soul addicts, the permutations bullst potential is endless. hehe

Countdown

25,174 posts

145 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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All this smacks a little of "Emperors new clothes" to me.... smile

toxicnerve

22,240 posts

126 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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Countdown said:
All this smacks a little of "Emperors new clothes" to me.... smile
I'd be interested to see a proper sound analysis (super sensitive microphones, oscilloscope readouts etc) of these various things to see if there's a measurable difference. People's hearing ranges vary so I can believe one person could hear something while another does does not. I don't doubt that. What I want to see if the response of a system varies measurably by changing the DAC or to different cables, using cones etc.

Then I may start to "believe" as it were.

davepoth

29,395 posts

148 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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toxicnerve said:
Countdown said:
All this smacks a little of "Emperors new clothes" to me.... smile
I'd be interested to see a proper sound analysis (super sensitive microphones, oscilloscope readouts etc) of these various things to see if there's a measurable difference. People's hearing ranges vary so I can believe one person could hear something while another does does not. I don't doubt that. What I want to see if the response of a system varies measurably by changing the DAC or to different cables, using cones etc.

Then I may start to "believe" as it were.
By the time you get up to this level of ridiculousness the differences would be a bit too subtle to pick up with recording equipment - microphones always colour the sound a little themselves.

nonuts

15,855 posts

178 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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custodian said:
Dedicated 30amp mains spur
I'm amazed more people with seriously expensive kit don't do this, especially if you have power hungry amps.

I'm intrigued by *mains* conditioners etc. however if a component has a good enough power supply to start with I really can't see how they should make any difference. For a turntable with a motor that runs at mains voltage I can see more of a reason though.

toxicnerve

22,240 posts

126 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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davepoth said:
By the time you get up to this level of ridiculousness the differences would be a bit too subtle to pick up with recording equipment - microphones always colour the sound a little themselves.
Ok forget the mics, directly measure the output at the end of the speaker cable (not sure how this would work if you didn't have a load attached though). See if the amplified signal has changed AT ALL and is actually a statistically significant change...


Driller

7,232 posts

227 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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Toxicnerve I salute your endurance but you're on a hiding to nothing with these nutters. Oh yeah and how DARE you suggest a scientific, reproducible and reliable way of proving that all of this is bks! hehe

custodian said:
Bought several highly regarded mains cables. Result worse because sound seemed "strangled"
rofl and indeed rofl


toxicnerve

22,240 posts

126 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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Driller said:
Toxicnerve I salute your endurance but you're on a hiding to nothing with these nutters. Oh yeah and how DARE you suggest a scientific, reproducible and reliable way of proving that all of this is bks! hehe
smile

I work in high-end Home Automation (which includes AV), so I've seen various systems at pretty much ALL price-points (including Mega-Yacht systems). Oddly enough some of the most expensive setups sounded the worst to me and the more modest ones sounded the best.

Also, as a poster above stated, the room itself can change the response of a system more than some (most?) people realise. Get a decent amount of soft furnishing in and you will improve the response no end. Deep-pile carpet, deep cushions, a large sofa etc. Indeed, it's not uncommon for a high-end home-cinema to have leather/fabric panelling on the walls. It can make so much difference to how things sound (sort of like an anechoic chamber).

I'm willing to believe that someone could tell the difference between a system wired with 2.5mm mains flex, 2.5mm OFC speaker cable and some silver cable IF the difference between the three can be measured by test equipment. If the difference can't be measured then I call bullst when someone tells me they can tell the difference.

I'm all about facts. Without facts and reason (provable), it's snake-oil to me.

Edited by toxicnerve on Saturday 5th January 12:59

Adrian W

11,357 posts

177 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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custodian said:
Not heard the Vivaldi. Rav wants to lend me one but I am not rushing for the time being.
He's a nice guy, very enthusiastic, it is worth a listen, but you do need a lot of space for it.

Did you notice that in their listening room, non of the mains outlets have switches on?

Edited by Adrian W on Saturday 5th January 13:02

TonyRPH

Original Poster:

10,050 posts

117 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
quotequote all
IforB said:
Now that's something that confuses the hell out of me. Burning in cables? What is it supposed to actually do?

Running in speakers is one thing, but cables? Methinks that some people have their intelligence to Money ratio a bit wrong.
If you've ever bought a new house, you'l notice that the lights get brighter and produce a more even lighting field as the mains cables burn in.

I can't believe you didn't know this.



toxicnerve

22,240 posts

126 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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TonyRPH said:
If you've ever bought a new house, you'l notice that the lights get brighter and produce a more even lighting field as the mains cables burn in.

I can't believe you didn't know this.
/NotSureIfSeriousMemeGoesHere

toxicnerve

22,240 posts

126 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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custodian said:
Sure, room is key part of system. Some excellent room treatments available these days.

Provable reason- good point. Listen to stuff. If it really sounds better, buy it. If it doesn't, don't. Sounds pretty clear cut to me.

Back to car analogy. Why is a Ferrari better (or worse) than a Lambo. Show me the scientific reason.
The engines will have measurably different characteristics e.g. horsepower, torque, rate of rise/fall of revs etc. Same applies for the drivetrain (4WD vs. RWD etc)/gearbox, the suspension, the brakes etc. All will have measurably different traits.

Some people may prefer one over the other of that there is no doubt but there will be measurable and provable reasons for this. Surely you're not suggesting this isn't the case?

Adrian W

11,357 posts

177 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
quotequote all
toxicnerve said:
I'm willing to believe that someone could tell the difference between a system wired with 2.5mm mains flex, 2.5mm OFC speaker cable and some silver cable IF the difference between the three can be measured by test equipment. If the difference can't be measured then I call bullst when someone tells me they can tell the difference.

I'm all about facts. Without facts and reason (provable), it's snake-oil to me.

Edited by toxicnerve on Saturday 5th January 12:59
I work in electronics, a speaker is an electric motor that moves air, the cable is an important part of the control system, with the right equipement differences are easily measurable, the problem will always be that with our very limited hearing we won't notice it, I'm over 50 so I've got no chance. I would argue that most people over 15 couldn't tel one good cable from another, it's all down to personal taste.

toxicnerve

22,240 posts

126 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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custodian said:
Are you serious? I think that the purchase decision is much more often to do with image and perception rather than fact.

Your argument on HiFi equipment isn't sustainable. Do you have enough detailed scientific knowledge to really understand what happens in a cable or a component or a filter? I know I don't and its my job.

A couple of US companies offer quantum noise reduction devices. One of the companies also supplies similar technology to the US navy. Do I understand his claims? No way. Do they work in my system. No! So don't use them.

If your theoretical physics is up to a full understanding of all effects, then I suggest you are wasted in your current job.
No doubt image plays and important part but that's not what you asked. Are you suggesting that audiophile purchases are all about image/kudos? I won't disagree with that!

I'm not saying I understand the physics. I'm saying show me the evidence (measured differences) that supports the claims of a particular piece of equipment...

If audiophiles are not willing to do that then I call bullst on their claims. How anyone can claim to hear the difference between, for the sake of argument, two DACs if there's no measurable difference in the outputs is beyond me and frankly complete and utter bullst on their part.

f people are not willing to standup to that sort of scrutiny then, again, I call bullst.

Edited by toxicnerve on Saturday 5th January 13:27

toxicnerve

22,240 posts

126 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
quotequote all
First show me OBJECTIVE evidence that a particular cable or device alters the signal/sound in some way THEN I will accept the subjective (better vs. worse) opinion.

I can't say fairer than that. Just to be clear I'm not saying there aren't differences but if they're no measurable (in any way) then...



Surely, SURELY that's 100% unbiased and fair?

Countdown

25,174 posts

145 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
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custodian said:
Why would I want to spend my time doing that?

If that is the way you want to choose, it's up to you. I'm sure you will end up with a very low noise, low distortion,system.

For me, my ears work pretty well as the selection tool.
If your ears can tell the difference, would it not be possible to show the difference on measuring equipment?

ETA something feels hot or cold - can be proven by a thermometer. Something sounds loud/quiet, again can be measured.

Why can't sound waveform distortion be quantified ?

Edited by Countdown on Saturday 5th January 13:50

TonyRPH

Original Poster:

10,050 posts

117 months

Saturday 5th January 2013
quotequote all
toxicnerve said:
TonyRPH said:
If you've ever bought a new house, you'l notice that the lights get brighter and produce a more even lighting field as the mains cables burn in.

I can't believe you didn't know this.
/NotSureIfSeriousMemeGoesHere
hehe