More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
kayc said:
No disrespect but not sure Roksan ever got considered as any good by anyone who actually bothered to listen to one..probably was a classic e-bay purchase.
100% correct, my old DVD player was playing so bought what i though would be something decent without listening / seeing and was enticed by the shiny box and good rep their amps had.kayc said:
JustinP1 said:
True story:
I used to have a Chord Integrated stereo amp. About £4000 worth - that that was a decade ago. Weighed a ton. Even the remote control was a 'brick' of CNCed metal about two inches thick.
After I had it a few years, a couple of things happened to the remote, some of the buttons got a bit 'sticky' and the response waned - it needs new batteries.
So, I unscrew the metal section at the back which I presume is the battery compartment. It is - and underneath is another plastic battery compartment, like in a common or garden remote control...
Hmm, I thought, so I worked out while I was there how to open the whole thing metal remote control to see why the keys were sticky...
And inside the big chunky metal enclosure was not just the guts, but a whole (JVC if I remember rightly) 1990esque remote control. It worked completely independently from the big, heavy suit of armour around it - you could use it by itself. The little window at the top of the Chord unit simply let the IR from the JVC control through, and the milled metal buttons on the Chord casing were simply designed to be above to the plasticy JVC buttons. Hence why the buttons got sticky.
It was at that point I rethought my attitude to hi-fi 'style' over substance. In this case the £200 Chord 'casing' on the remote actually stopped the cheapo but perfectly good components woking properly.
Sounds like bI used to have a Chord Integrated stereo amp. About £4000 worth - that that was a decade ago. Weighed a ton. Even the remote control was a 'brick' of CNCed metal about two inches thick.
After I had it a few years, a couple of things happened to the remote, some of the buttons got a bit 'sticky' and the response waned - it needs new batteries.
So, I unscrew the metal section at the back which I presume is the battery compartment. It is - and underneath is another plastic battery compartment, like in a common or garden remote control...
Hmm, I thought, so I worked out while I was there how to open the whole thing metal remote control to see why the keys were sticky...
And inside the big chunky metal enclosure was not just the guts, but a whole (JVC if I remember rightly) 1990esque remote control. It worked completely independently from the big, heavy suit of armour around it - you could use it by itself. The little window at the top of the Chord unit simply let the IR from the JVC control through, and the milled metal buttons on the Chord casing were simply designed to be above to the plasticy JVC buttons. Hence why the buttons got sticky.
It was at that point I rethought my attitude to hi-fi 'style' over substance. In this case the £200 Chord 'casing' on the remote actually stopped the cheapo but perfectly good components woking properly.
ks to me to be fair..sure it can be googled.Dont have a picture of the innards, but this is the remote I am talking about:
And inside it was something no dissimilar to this:
z6lrlVQ~~60_12.JPG)
Inside was padding to hold the complete controller in place underneath the corresponding buttons. That's why the controller is 5cm thick!
JustinP1 said:
To be fair to me - why would I make this up?
Dont have a picture of the innards, but this is the remote I am talking about:
And inside it was something no dissimilar to this:
Inside was padding to hold the complete controller in place underneath the corresponding buttons. That's why the controller is 5cm thick!
Haha..doesnt look like many of those buttons correspond..must have had fun using any of the functions..frigging volume button nowhere near!or any of the others to be fair.Dont have a picture of the innards, but this is the remote I am talking about:
And inside it was something no dissimilar to this:
Inside was padding to hold the complete controller in place underneath the corresponding buttons. That's why the controller is 5cm thick!
kayc said:
Just out of interest..what kit you kit have you got?I have lots so i dont have to be defensive or justify,i just listen to what sounds best..currently have speakers from £300 to £5k..Amps/Cd players of similar price range and some sound great and some sound st ..how anyone can find out without owning the whole spectrum is impossible..so whats the ultimate in your opinion?..bearing i mind of probably heard it or owned it!
I dreaded the day I was asked this on here.. t ..how anyone can find out without owning the whole spectrum is impossible..so whats the ultimate in your opinion?..bearing i mind of probably heard it or owned it!
I have nothing exotic at all - I simply can't afford it.
Most of my kit is modified / DIY with the exception of my Linn Keilidh speakers.
I also have some home brewed transmission line speakers, and various other pairs of speakers I've bought and kept.
But currently:
Speakers: Linn Keilidh
Amp: Home brew modules bought off Chinese vendor on ebay.
CD Player: Well - I have several..
Kenwood DP4090 / Marantz CD17 (heavily modified), Cambridge D500SE (modified to a transport only with reclocking).DAC(s): Cambridge Azur Dacmagic (the first of the newer range) and a home brewed DAC bought from Chinese ebay vendor but modified.
Logitech Squeezebox duet (totally standard!)
Preamp: A Counterpoint (not valve) which was a surround preamp but has been completely modified into stereo only, and fitted with remote volume control (the original RC circuitry was non functional) and relays for switching inputs.
Some pics:
Power amp:
Preamp:
It's changed a bit since this picture - now has a motorised Alps volume control and a few other mods.
Edited by TonyRPH on Friday 1st February 22:03
I also once owned an XTC PRE-1 preamp - supposedly one of the greatest preamps ever...
However, upon examining it in detail I was left distinctly underwhelmed.
It didn't sound as good as expected, so I took a detailed look at the circuit.
On the back panel is stated: "Single ended Class A FET" but...
Here is the schematic, the only thing that's FET is the opamp which is a servo to maintain DC balance.
The actual 'single ended FET' output is a regular bipolar transistor (Q6).
In the picture below - it's possible to see two very small transistors near the centre (in between the 1W resistors) - with the outline of a heat sink on the PCB.
The transistors have G/S/D markings on the PCB - yet they are conventional NPN (Q6 on the schematic).
It looks to me as if XTC had intended this to be a FET design with heat sinks - but:
a) either couldn't get it stable or
b) decided it sounded better with bipolar transistors or
c) the heat sinked version was a higher model. (although no higher model is known of)
PCB:
However, upon examining it in detail I was left distinctly underwhelmed.
It didn't sound as good as expected, so I took a detailed look at the circuit.
On the back panel is stated: "Single ended Class A FET" but...
Here is the schematic, the only thing that's FET is the opamp which is a servo to maintain DC balance.
The actual 'single ended FET' output is a regular bipolar transistor (Q6).
In the picture below - it's possible to see two very small transistors near the centre (in between the 1W resistors) - with the outline of a heat sink on the PCB.
The transistors have G/S/D markings on the PCB - yet they are conventional NPN (Q6 on the schematic).
It looks to me as if XTC had intended this to be a FET design with heat sinks - but:
a) either couldn't get it stable or
b) decided it sounded better with bipolar transistors or
c) the heat sinked version was a higher model. (although no higher model is known of)
PCB:
kayc said:
JustinP1 said:
To be fair to me - why would I make this up?
Dont have a picture of the innards, but this is the remote I am talking about:
And inside it was something no dissimilar to this:
Inside was padding to hold the complete controller in place underneath the corresponding buttons. That's why the controller is 5cm thick!
Haha..doesnt look like many of those buttons correspond..must have had fun using any of the functions..frigging volume button nowhere near!or any of the others to be fair.Dont have a picture of the innards, but this is the remote I am talking about:
And inside it was something no dissimilar to this:
Inside was padding to hold the complete controller in place underneath the corresponding buttons. That's why the controller is 5cm thick!
It was one of that JVC vintage and shape - not dissimilar at all. That pic was the best I could find from the net.
Now, this is years back, but I'm not certain that the buttons did correspond with the identical buttons underneath, or even that all of the JVC functions were used. Of course, they wouldn't need to be, Chord would just need to know which button produced which signal and program the amp's IR accordingly.
I know it sounds astonishing that Chord would charge £200 plus for a remote which is a £10 remote inside - and I was astonished at the time. As I said, it did explain why the remote was so thick - it was simply a casing for another remote inside.
Read about it here:
http://hifipig.com/chord-cpm-2600-ntegrated-amplif...
Check the 'Reliability' section. The only problem he had was the same as me - the volume control kept 'sticking' when using it.
The reviewer called Chord and mentioned the engineer knew it was a common problem, and charged him £150 to fix it. I fixed mine by taking it apart, finding it was a JVC controller inside and that the problem was that the metal Chord button wasn't aligned with the JVC button underneath. I adjusted the position of the JVC control inside it, and put two AA batteries in it and it was good as new.
Edited by JustinP1 on Friday 1st February 20:10
kayc said:
The_Burg said:
I briefly owned a Roksan Kandy DVD.
Bought off eBay. It made a mechanical noise when playing a DVD.
Lid off and discovered a cheapo internal PC DVD drive with the lid removed and a chunk of aluminium glue to the tray.
If i'd paid the best part of a £k for it i would have not been impressed, for th £150 i paid i was unamused and sold it pretty quickly and bought a £200 NAD which was better in pretty much every way except the cheap casing.
No disrespect but not sure Roksan ever got considered as any good by anyone who actually bothered to listen to one..probably was a classic e-bay purchase.Bought off eBay. It made a mechanical noise when playing a DVD.
Lid off and discovered a cheapo internal PC DVD drive with the lid removed and a chunk of aluminium glue to the tray.
If i'd paid the best part of a £k for it i would have not been impressed, for th £150 i paid i was unamused and sold it pretty quickly and bought a £200 NAD which was better in pretty much every way except the cheap casing.
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/roksan-ka...
hifichoice said:
With a highly competitive price tag, Roksan pushes all the right buttons on this fine player
As for Chord, one of the worst sounding amps I ever heard was the (two!!) £19k Chord monoblocks powering some hugely expensive wretched french speakers. Dreadful shrieking sound, my car radio sounded better.It looked something like this, with blue lighting inside
Sounded crap.
TonyRPH said:
Crackie said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Certainly not.Just overhyped and overrated IMHO.
I don't own any Cyrus gear or work for them btw.
Edited by Crackie on Friday 1st February 22:07
JustinP1 said:
<snip>
Read about it here:
http://hifipig.com/chord-cpm-2600-ntegrated-amplif...
Check the 'Reliability' section. The only problem he had was the same as me - the volume control kept 'sticking' when using it.
The reviewer called Chord and mentioned the engineer knew it was a common problem, and charged him £150 to fix it. I fixed mine by taking it apart, finding it was a JVC controller inside and that the problem was that the metal Chord button wasn't aligned with the JVC button underneath. I adjusted the position of the JVC control inside it, and put two AA batteries in it and it was good as new.
For such a beast of an amp, the power output is relatively low, and doesn't rise by much into lower impedance either.Read about it here:
http://hifipig.com/chord-cpm-2600-ntegrated-amplif...
Check the 'Reliability' section. The only problem he had was the same as me - the volume control kept 'sticking' when using it.
The reviewer called Chord and mentioned the engineer knew it was a common problem, and charged him £150 to fix it. I fixed mine by taking it apart, finding it was a JVC controller inside and that the problem was that the metal Chord button wasn't aligned with the JVC button underneath. I adjusted the position of the JVC control inside it, and put two AA batteries in it and it was good as new.
Edited by JustinP1 on Friday 1st February 20:10
Technical Specifications
Output Power: 2 x 120 W RMS into 8 Ohms
2 x 170 W RMS into 4 Ohms
2 x 220 W RMS burst into 4 Ohms
Signal / Noise Ratio: 93 dB
Channel Separation: 90 dB
Harmonic Distortion (THD): 0.05 %
Channel Balance: 0.01 dB
Chord remote control supplied as standard
Dimensions (mm): 480(w) x 138(h) x 355(d) Integra legs fitted
Weight: 20 Kgs. (incl. Integra legs)
Crackie said:
Hi Tony, your IMHO caveat is important. The hype surrounding a product and its media rating are not objective factors; they are driven by subjective opinion. We're entitled to our opinions but the suggestion that ' A lot of Cyrus stuff is just rebadged ' is something very different. It is measureable and in this case completely untrue.
I don't own any Cyrus gear or work for them btw.
You make a fair point, which is why I made a point of saying IMHO, because as I have stated previously in this topic, opinions on Hi Fi are purely subjective.I don't own any Cyrus gear or work for them btw.
Edited by Crackie on Friday 1st February 22:07
However, certain reviewers were very biased toward Cyrus gear I believe simply because it was British. All praise to them wanting to keep the home fires burning and all that, but they could have at least been subjective about it.
There was a time when What Hi Fi was serving nothing but praise on Cyrus products*, and yet other publications were less enthusiastic about them.
- The entire range - not one or two particular items. Sure, some other publications did give praise on occasion, but not sweeping praise to the entire range.
Edited by TonyRPH on Friday 1st February 22:19
custodian said:
Crackie said:
Hi Tony, your IMHO caveat is important. The hype surrounding a product and its media rating are not objective factors; they are driven by subjective opinion. We're entitled to our opinions but the suggestion that ' A lot of Cyrus stuff is just rebadged ' is something very different. It measureable is and in this case completely untrue.
Are you sure? My understanding is that Some Cyrus electronics are actually made by a firm in Northern Ireland that produces products for a number of HiFi companies.Globs said:
As for Chord, one of the worst sounding amps I ever heard was the (two!!) £19k Chord monoblocks powering some hugely expensive wretched french speakers. Dreadful shrieking sound, my car radio sounded better.
It looked something like this, with blue lighting inside
Sounded crap.
I've heard lots of Chord amps and none sounded 'crap" or even remotely like a car stereo, well unless the car was a Panamera with the truly superb Burmester audio option. Might not be to my taste, I had one on home dem against my Krell for a couple of weeks, but honestly, the notion that Chord amps aren't any good is utter tosh. They wouldn't stay in business very long otherwise. It looked something like this, with blue lighting inside
Sounded crap.
I shall have to disgaree with Custodian on this one - sorry mate
custodian said:
That's ok. Maybe they just didn't work well with the speakers I had then.
I visited the company and they certainly took a lot of care over design and build. Quality was excellent. I did own their top DAC and that was excellent but the amps didn't do it for me. Mind you, I've never been a great fan of Krell amps either so maybe it's just me!
Yes, the Chord HQ is an impressive place and they make significant investment in R&D. They obviously have a very specific philosophy on amp design with switch mode power supplies and I'm all for UK success stories.I visited the company and they certainly took a lot of care over design and build. Quality was excellent. I did own their top DAC and that was excellent but the amps didn't do it for me. Mind you, I've never been a great fan of Krell amps either so maybe it's just me!
The Krell sound isn't for everyone but I just love the bass quality and grip, and no other amp I've tried can match the FPB in that regard - 600w into 8 ohms, 1200w into 4 and 2400w into 2 tends to handle most speaker loads pretty well!
http://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-full-powe...
custodian said:
Crackie said:
There is a world of difference between using an OEM supplier to assemble your bespoke designs for you and doing some cheap badge engineering on someone else's product.
That is true, however you would then need to define how much of the product is bespoke and how much is actually sharing basic designs shared with othersWe're in danger if of going well off topic so I'll stop there.
TonyRPH said:
Most of my kit is modified / DIY
Same here. Most expensive individual component was the Teres platter bearing in the turntable
Pulled the cover off for an internal shot.
Even when building your own there are problems. Quality components and semiconductors are being 'cloned' by Asian companies and it is becoming difficult to ensure that what you get is really what it is labelled as. The Chinese have counterfeited many 'audiophile' op-amps, transistors etc and you have to be so careful where you purchase.
I have a colleagues Azur phono amp here for de-bugging. He's changed the op-amps for AD827 types that he bought off ebay. God knows what they really are, probably TL071s.
So it doesn't matter whether you are buying accessories, connects or components. Once they have an audiophile label, Caveat emptor applies.
Edited by Le TVR on Tuesday 5th February 09:28
Le TVR said:
<snip>
Pulled the cover off for an internal shot.
Even when building your own there are problems. Quality components and semiconductors are being 'cloned' by Asian companies and it is becoming difficult to ensure that what you get is really what it is labelled as. The Chinese have counterfeited many 'audiophile' op-amps, transistors etc and you have to be so careful where you purchase.<snip>
I know what you mean about the fake semiconductors - lots of articles about them around the 'net.Pulled the cover off for an internal shot.
Even when building your own there are problems. Quality components and semiconductors are being 'cloned' by Asian companies and it is becoming difficult to ensure that what you get is really what it is labelled as. The Chinese have counterfeited many 'audiophile' op-amps, transistors etc and you have to be so careful where you purchase.<snip>
The modules in your amp - they look like an old Maplin module from the 80's - is that correct?
Well spotted!
Certainly the PCBs are from there.
Friend had built a pair years ago and asked me to see why they didn't work..
A few dozen transistors later and they were working but there were still issues with stability.
IIRC the outputs are now BD911/2 pairs, the VAS and feedback changed and a current mirror pair used in the input. Bias was considerably higher. Sound was much better so I got more PCBs and made quite a few for myself and others.
Certainly the PCBs are from there.
Friend had built a pair years ago and asked me to see why they didn't work..
A few dozen transistors later and they were working but there were still issues with stability.
IIRC the outputs are now BD911/2 pairs, the VAS and feedback changed and a current mirror pair used in the input. Bias was considerably higher. Sound was much better so I got more PCBs and made quite a few for myself and others.
Le TVR said:
Well spotted!
Certainly the PCBs are from there.<snip>
I still have the schematics for those somewhere.Certainly the PCBs are from there.<snip>
I think Maplin (or the designer at least!) excelled with that design - it was certainly well received 'back in the day'.
I like the chassis you used for that amp - where did you get that?
I plundered a Rotel 6 channel amp for my chassis - I did originally build mine into a Cambridge A5 chassis - but lack of space was a problem.
I bought a 2nd A5 and was going to make monoblocks, and then found the Rotel at a good price on ebay so used that instead, and as a bonus I got a massive toroidal with huge current capability.
The other problem with the Cambridge stuff was the puny heatsinks. No small wonder they self destruct with such regularity.
The Rotel also yielded 3 massive heatsinks.
This is (was!) the original build in the Cambridge.
Edited by TonyRPH on Tuesday 5th February 10:49
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