More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
PhilboSE said:
Mr Whippy said:
But then again, if a CD is 16bit, then surely there must be a crc per 16 bit value, otherwise if the first bit were mis-read it could cause some rather odd looking waveforms hehe!
Before being written to the disc, the LPCM audio data is divided into 12-sample frames (six left and right samples, alternating) and subjected to CIRC encoding, which segments and rearranges the data and expands it with "parity" bits in a way that allows occasional read errors to be detected and corrected. 8 bits of subcode data are added to each frame. The resulting 291-bit frame data is EFM-modulated, where each 8-bit word is replaced with a corresponding 14-bit word designed to reduce the number of transitions between 0 and 1, thus reducing the density of physical pits on the disc and providing an additional degree of error tolerance. 3 "merging" bits are added before each 14-bit word for disambiguation and synchronization. A 24-bit word is added to the beginning of each frame to assist with synchronization, so the reading device can locate frames easily. The EFM, merging bits, and sync words thus expand each frame from 291 to 588 bits of "channel data". The frames of channel data are written to disc physically in the form of pits and lands, with each pit or land representing a series of zeroes, and with the transition points—the edge of each pit—representing 1.Shamelessly "ripped" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_Digital_...
It sounds like it's not so much a stream of data more than a well crafted lay-down technique of bits so reading can be as accurate as possible with redundancy and correction logic built into the way the data is put down... very clever stuff.
But in todays age of speed and high density storage, and the relative 'cheapness' of crc on everything, it makes very little sense to even bother with a CD any more.
Lets put it this way, in five more years as CD's become yet more obsolete in preference of solid state storage and/or streaming, then the DAC is the first step you'd need to worry about. Anything digital is by design, not lossy, or very very very low loss to the point a wavy magnet isn't going to do much hehe
Dave
I think the biggest issue will be finding stuff that is in a lossless format. MP3 has got a critical mass and that made sense when storage was expensive but now it's dirt cheap.
I think Apple does lossless now, but I don't do itunes, other legal sources are hard to find (illegal ones easier!) and even if everything you want is available in lossless you may have to use multiple sites to find it. I can buy a CD for the same or less in the majority of cases from a single source and it arrives the next day. I can then rip it using my cheap cd drive in the PC and have that error checked against other peoples rips. The art and text downloaded and it added to my library ready to play in not much more time than it would take me load a cd into a player.
I think Apple does lossless now, but I don't do itunes, other legal sources are hard to find (illegal ones easier!) and even if everything you want is available in lossless you may have to use multiple sites to find it. I can buy a CD for the same or less in the majority of cases from a single source and it arrives the next day. I can then rip it using my cheap cd drive in the PC and have that error checked against other peoples rips. The art and text downloaded and it added to my library ready to play in not much more time than it would take me load a cd into a player.
I totally agree.
I always buy CD and currently I rip to 320kbps MP3 via iTunes, then store my MP3's manually, and check all the id3 data etc (quite often it's a mess)
Considering most places I listen to music I've not had issues with 320kbps... I can't really tell the difference with decent headphones or in my car from Apple Lossless vs 320kbps, but I stuck with MP3 ripping for the flexibility across all my stuff.
Dave
I always buy CD and currently I rip to 320kbps MP3 via iTunes, then store my MP3's manually, and check all the id3 data etc (quite often it's a mess)
Considering most places I listen to music I've not had issues with 320kbps... I can't really tell the difference with decent headphones or in my car from Apple Lossless vs 320kbps, but I stuck with MP3 ripping for the flexibility across all my stuff.
Dave
I remember in the late 90's ripping to 128kbps and kinda worrying about my HDD space and the price and so on.
But today I agree that there is no point ripping to anything but the very best codec as space is super cheap. I'm not sure what the best format is though... so currently I do 320kbps MP3.
I've still got a load of 128kbps stuff I need to re-rip and I can tell the difference... or some CD's I don't have any more (terminally scratched or lost)...
There was a Russian site that sold CD audio really cheap (but legitimately iirc but lots of stuff like that was popping up and down back in the early 00's), and then you just converted it to what you wanted later. So it was huge files to download at the time but fine on a fast connection. I had a friend who bought hundreds of albums back then for not that much.
I still prefer having a CD though since it's nice to have in the car!
Dave
But today I agree that there is no point ripping to anything but the very best codec as space is super cheap. I'm not sure what the best format is though... so currently I do 320kbps MP3.
I've still got a load of 128kbps stuff I need to re-rip and I can tell the difference... or some CD's I don't have any more (terminally scratched or lost)...
There was a Russian site that sold CD audio really cheap (but legitimately iirc but lots of stuff like that was popping up and down back in the early 00's), and then you just converted it to what you wanted later. So it was huge files to download at the time but fine on a fast connection. I had a friend who bought hundreds of albums back then for not that much.
I still prefer having a CD though since it's nice to have in the car!
Dave
Best is a relative term! The fundamental issue with MP3 is that it is a lossy format so regardless of 64/128/320 or VBR you are losing something. What is best among the lossless codecs? well, I guess that should be nothing, if they don't lose anything they should all be identical sounding, but are they?
Interesting area.
Interesting area.
Bullett said:
Best is a relative term! The fundamental issue with MP3 is that it is a lossy format so regardless of 64/128/320 or VBR you are losing something. What is best among the lossless codecs? well, I guess that should be nothing, if they don't lose anything they should all be identical sounding, but are they?
Interesting area.
You need to understand perceptual encoding. You can't say that just because it's a lower bitrate (and hence a smaller size) that you can automatically hear a difference. It's not like saying there's a big chunk taken out of the PCM data. Find a bitrate which transparent to you, not anyone else. The only way to find this out is to ABX the original lossless file against files encoded at different settings.Interesting area.
Lossless codecs are just that so yes they will sound the same. Decode any of them back to raw PCM and they'll be the same as the original. I think FLAC is the most popular, there really isn't a best. However if you have any common sense you'll use one that allows tagging across devices.
If you're a proper audiophile you'll want to start claiming that playing files from different locations on a HDD will produce a different sound and that a $700 USB cable will sound different to the one which came free with your phone/external HDD/etc. You've got to justify to yourself spending all that money
If you want to do some proper ABX tests with MP3 and FLAC(or any other lossy or lossless formats) Give Foobar2000 and the ABX plugin a go.
When preparing your files for comparison make sure they are from the same source, you can use use Foobar to convert some flac files to various formats and go from there. From my experimentation I found anything above 192Kish to be indistinguishable.
Having said that I use FLAC simply because its lossless and that means I can freely convert to any other format at will. For MP3 (in the car etc) I tend to use 320K MP3 just because I can.
When preparing your files for comparison make sure they are from the same source, you can use use Foobar to convert some flac files to various formats and go from there. From my experimentation I found anything above 192Kish to be indistinguishable.
Having said that I use FLAC simply because its lossless and that means I can freely convert to any other format at will. For MP3 (in the car etc) I tend to use 320K MP3 just because I can.
I feel I should post here, considering my alias I have some Arcam and Denon stuff myself. My Dad, on the other hand, has an entire room dedicated to his Hi-Fi, which consists of multiple Naim Audio boxes and various associated add-ons.
High end Hi-Fi can be ridiculously expensive and I remember him looking at a 8-way power strip, which cleans the electrics ... £300-400! However, saying that, I could tell the difference in sound between a Naim system and a Linn system, both playing the same track, in an audition room.
So there is a difference - It just depends on how much you're willing to pay to get slightly brighter treble, or more rounded bass etc
I have some Arcam and Denon stuff myself. My Dad, on the other hand, has an entire room dedicated to his Hi-Fi, which consists of multiple Naim Audio boxes and various associated add-ons. High end Hi-Fi can be ridiculously expensive and I remember him looking at a 8-way power strip, which cleans the electrics ... £300-400! However, saying that, I could tell the difference in sound between a Naim system and a Linn system, both playing the same track, in an audition room.
So there is a difference - It just depends on how much you're willing to pay to get slightly brighter treble, or more rounded bass etc
probedb said:
Ikemi said:
So there is a difference - It just depends on how much you're willing to pay to get slightly brighter treble, or more rounded bass etc
You've used the right word, 'difference' and not 'better' 
Coconut Audio
Oh god.
Oh god.
Batsh!t crazy website said:
The true audiophile goes out of the box and enjoys the exploration, and discovers new things that he cannot explain. He enjoys it for the rest of his life. But the skeptic sits in his little box and tells the audiophile that there is no difference, the skeptic never wants to try it himself,
because he is afraid to feel dumb when he finds something he can't understand. But he fails to realize, that sitting in that box makes him dumb in the first place.
because he is afraid to feel dumb when he finds something he can't understand. But he fails to realize, that sitting in that box makes him dumb in the first place.
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