Cables - can you tell the difference?
Discussion
For HDMI there are always going to be distance limits if you don't have repeaters or fibre, nice cables will work better for that but for long runs you're getting well outside the range it was designed to work over.
As for the USB cables the snake oil is really getting strong. If a Fireface or MADIface works perfectly with a basic Chinese cable why would something else with far fewer channels at lower rates have a noticeable difference? Unless their clock and buffer designs really are that s
t?
As for the USB cables the snake oil is really getting strong. If a Fireface or MADIface works perfectly with a basic Chinese cable why would something else with far fewer channels at lower rates have a noticeable difference? Unless their clock and buffer designs really are that s
t?What do the knowledgeable forum members use for mains cables, interconnects and speaker cable on their hi-fi/av system?
I accept these uber expensive cables are far from cost effective but surely they differ from the free cables supplied with your system?
My system is pretty entry-level/mid range, but even that has benefitted from a more expensive interconnect and speaker cable, to my ears at least.
I accept these uber expensive cables are far from cost effective but surely they differ from the free cables supplied with your system?
My system is pretty entry-level/mid range, but even that has benefitted from a more expensive interconnect and speaker cable, to my ears at least.
As an Audiophile (phool) I have invested in cables and when demonstrated have "heard" the differences. That said the differences are not always that significant and may not always be directly attributable to the cable.
As a scientist I felt I could believe differences in analogue cables but not digital or worse mains, however experience has brought differing conclusions. The biggest differences are in mains cables, don't agree, fine, fancy trying; buy some from Russ Andrews, evaluate and return if you don't hear any improvement. Inter connects do make a difference , to a lesser extent speaker cables; digital and optical ... on a dem perhaps on repeated check blind evaluation no.
My cables
Mains, mix of Russ Andrews and 2x Nordost Vishnu (£500+ new !) bought second hand and could resell today for same money. I've not swapped back
Speaker cable Russ Andrews 8TC 10m lengths. Used to use 5amp mains which was OK.
Inter connects, mainly bought off ebay by specialist dealers mix of Silver and copper cables under £100 each. Balanced cables where possible and have found a difference in sound between suppliers. Currently using second hand ones bought for £5 each at the Hi-Fi jumble
Digital optical cable that came with a CD transport.
Current fav in the Audio club I belong to is Anti-cables.
As a scientist I felt I could believe differences in analogue cables but not digital or worse mains, however experience has brought differing conclusions. The biggest differences are in mains cables, don't agree, fine, fancy trying; buy some from Russ Andrews, evaluate and return if you don't hear any improvement. Inter connects do make a difference , to a lesser extent speaker cables; digital and optical ... on a dem perhaps on repeated check blind evaluation no.
My cables
Mains, mix of Russ Andrews and 2x Nordost Vishnu (£500+ new !) bought second hand and could resell today for same money. I've not swapped back
Speaker cable Russ Andrews 8TC 10m lengths. Used to use 5amp mains which was OK.
Inter connects, mainly bought off ebay by specialist dealers mix of Silver and copper cables under £100 each. Balanced cables where possible and have found a difference in sound between suppliers. Currently using second hand ones bought for £5 each at the Hi-Fi jumble
Digital optical cable that came with a CD transport.
Current fav in the Audio club I belong to is Anti-cables.
InductionRoar said:
What do the knowledgeable forum members use for mains cables, interconnects and speaker cable on their hi-fi/av system?
I accept these uber expensive cables are far from cost effective but surely they differ from the free cables supplied with your system?
My system is pretty entry-level/mid range, but even that has benefitted from a more expensive interconnect and speaker cable, to my ears at least.
Stay away from Russ Andrews crap. QED is good stuff for the money I accept these uber expensive cables are far from cost effective but surely they differ from the free cables supplied with your system?
My system is pretty entry-level/mid range, but even that has benefitted from a more expensive interconnect and speaker cable, to my ears at least.
InductionRoar said:
What do the knowledgeable forum members use for mains cables, interconnects and speaker cable on their hi-fi/av system?
I accept these uber expensive cables are far from cost effective but surely they differ from the free cables supplied with your system?
My system is pretty entry-level/mid range, but even that has benefitted from a more expensive interconnect and speaker cable, to my ears at least.
Not sure I qualify as knowledgeable, but...I accept these uber expensive cables are far from cost effective but surely they differ from the free cables supplied with your system?
My system is pretty entry-level/mid range, but even that has benefitted from a more expensive interconnect and speaker cable, to my ears at least.
- Mains cables: whatever came with the kit. I do have a mains filter for a couple of items - there's some bad noise (clicks/thumps) on my mains from the boiler, freezer and neighbours stuff turning on/off, so I use a Furman AC-210A E to filter that out.
- Interconnects: if it's analogue then I made it myself using Van Damme cable and Neutrik connectors; if it's digital, then whatever I could get that's standards compliant (i.e. Amazon Basics)
- Speaker cables: reasonable but not stupid speaker cable - £1.50 to £2.00 per meter - think it's Van Damme Blue 1.5mm2 speaker cable at the moment
interesting discussion this...was having a similar one on the NAIM forum, not aruond cables but digital streamers and DACs
now i believe spending money on amps and speakers makes a huge difference and blind listening of 2 different amp + speaker setups almost everyone will know which is which and between a hifi and say a piece of Sonos which is the real hiFi
now.... where i am a skeptic is the sources, people have long had to spend a premium on sources as getting a tape deck or turntbale to optimise its poor medium is difficult and expensive.
the hifi seperates brigade believe in balancing components, so you spend 1k on a souce to 1-2k on ampp and 1-2k on speakers say. this is relatively true for a while. turntables excepted perhaps.
now....i think you can get great hifi with a very different balance, a 1k DAC into a 3k amp and 10k speakers sounds really good, and that DAC can be fed by a PC, why not a PC outputs the same 0s and 1s as a 15k hifi streamer. the only component in a hifi streamer that should make a difference is the DAC, and if you have a good DAC then all is well.
I am relocating my hifi and so have been llooking into a digital source to replace a sonos connect with optical out to DAC, and it think am going to settle for USB into the DAC with a £40 lead. why £40? its a 3m run and i think a £40 USB lead should be more than good enough to maintain minimial loss rate particularly at audio bandwidths.
However have had loads of weird advice on the Naim forum about quality of audio streams various DACs etc..
one that came to mind, my DAC can run as a preamp, so i postulated running the DAC into a poweramp and removing my integrated. the hifi crowd all advised against thius and adding a pre-amp in-between the DAC and the poweramp as "thats what a pre-amp does"
i questioned the logic of this, we are adding more steps here surely, and the DAC has to modulate the single , it is already doing the far more complicated task of DAC so just modulating output sounds simple it has to do this anyway for loud and quite parts of a track, so why add a preamp unless the distortions it offers somehow sound appealing but NOT more accurate
thats where the discussion ended noone replied after a lot of inital activity where they were countering each others arguments.
i love hifi and kit, and a great hifi can sound awesome, but i do ignore the snake oil nonsense where i can it can be hard to sometimes identify, but the fact that things like a digital interconnect reviews read like utter garbage makes me sure at least some is either press nonsense or people with lets call it faith.
another example is reading reviews on hifi racks for things with NO moving parts like a streamer into a DAC into an am saying this stand brings out a more open sounstage blah blah utter nonsense. its a stand i want it to be sold and look pleasant that is it.
so yes i will run PC -> 1k DAC - 3k amp - 10k speakers and i am sure that setup will outperform the fool who spent 1k on leads 3k on a streamer, 3k on a dac, 3k on an amp and 4k on speakers to most listeners.
now i believe spending money on amps and speakers makes a huge difference and blind listening of 2 different amp + speaker setups almost everyone will know which is which and between a hifi and say a piece of Sonos which is the real hiFi
now.... where i am a skeptic is the sources, people have long had to spend a premium on sources as getting a tape deck or turntbale to optimise its poor medium is difficult and expensive.
the hifi seperates brigade believe in balancing components, so you spend 1k on a souce to 1-2k on ampp and 1-2k on speakers say. this is relatively true for a while. turntables excepted perhaps.
now....i think you can get great hifi with a very different balance, a 1k DAC into a 3k amp and 10k speakers sounds really good, and that DAC can be fed by a PC, why not a PC outputs the same 0s and 1s as a 15k hifi streamer. the only component in a hifi streamer that should make a difference is the DAC, and if you have a good DAC then all is well.
I am relocating my hifi and so have been llooking into a digital source to replace a sonos connect with optical out to DAC, and it think am going to settle for USB into the DAC with a £40 lead. why £40? its a 3m run and i think a £40 USB lead should be more than good enough to maintain minimial loss rate particularly at audio bandwidths.
However have had loads of weird advice on the Naim forum about quality of audio streams various DACs etc..
one that came to mind, my DAC can run as a preamp, so i postulated running the DAC into a poweramp and removing my integrated. the hifi crowd all advised against thius and adding a pre-amp in-between the DAC and the poweramp as "thats what a pre-amp does"
i questioned the logic of this, we are adding more steps here surely, and the DAC has to modulate the single , it is already doing the far more complicated task of DAC so just modulating output sounds simple it has to do this anyway for loud and quite parts of a track, so why add a preamp unless the distortions it offers somehow sound appealing but NOT more accurate
thats where the discussion ended noone replied after a lot of inital activity where they were countering each others arguments.
i love hifi and kit, and a great hifi can sound awesome, but i do ignore the snake oil nonsense where i can it can be hard to sometimes identify, but the fact that things like a digital interconnect reviews read like utter garbage makes me sure at least some is either press nonsense or people with lets call it faith.
another example is reading reviews on hifi racks for things with NO moving parts like a streamer into a DAC into an am saying this stand brings out a more open sounstage blah blah utter nonsense. its a stand i want it to be sold and look pleasant that is it.
so yes i will run PC -> 1k DAC - 3k amp - 10k speakers and i am sure that setup will outperform the fool who spent 1k on leads 3k on a streamer, 3k on a dac, 3k on an amp and 4k on speakers to most listeners.
Interesting discussion and I can see the argument from both sides.
I have upgraded my fee Naim interconnect with one of their Hilines. This offered quite a noticeable difference and second hand off eBay it rpresented reasonable value for money.
When I bought my headphone amp no interconnects were supplied so I ordered Chord Chameleons which were (I think from memory) 3 up from the bottom, so essentially lower end cables from a reputable maker. I have no intention on upgrading as they seem to do the job perfectly for a reasonable outlay.
With regards to speaker cable, I have had a few. Van den Hul, Naim and I am currently running Chord Epic which seemed to again offer a moderate upgrade over both and I personally felt, for my system, paying more would be a waste.
I am currently in the process of upgrading my mains extension block and lead going into the extension block. I currently run a Russ Andrews block (filtered and daisy chained) with one of his cables and having read on the Naim forum that filtering devices are a no-no with Naim and they recommend star wiring, I am getting rid. I am not expecting a profound difference but if there is a difference to be heard I am proceeding on the basis that it will affect all the boxes plugged into the extension so should be more noticeable than the interconnects and speaker cable.
The problem then will be if I hear a difference I will want to upgrade the mains cables to each component which would quickly get into amp upgrade territory.
I have upgraded my fee Naim interconnect with one of their Hilines. This offered quite a noticeable difference and second hand off eBay it rpresented reasonable value for money.
When I bought my headphone amp no interconnects were supplied so I ordered Chord Chameleons which were (I think from memory) 3 up from the bottom, so essentially lower end cables from a reputable maker. I have no intention on upgrading as they seem to do the job perfectly for a reasonable outlay.
With regards to speaker cable, I have had a few. Van den Hul, Naim and I am currently running Chord Epic which seemed to again offer a moderate upgrade over both and I personally felt, for my system, paying more would be a waste.
I am currently in the process of upgrading my mains extension block and lead going into the extension block. I currently run a Russ Andrews block (filtered and daisy chained) with one of his cables and having read on the Naim forum that filtering devices are a no-no with Naim and they recommend star wiring, I am getting rid. I am not expecting a profound difference but if there is a difference to be heard I am proceeding on the basis that it will affect all the boxes plugged into the extension so should be more noticeable than the interconnects and speaker cable.
The problem then will be if I hear a difference I will want to upgrade the mains cables to each component which would quickly get into amp upgrade territory.
Digital - no of course not
Analogue - tend to just buy the cheapest option 1 notch about what you get in the box, mainly for build quality rather than sound
Spend your money on source (these days a good DAC) and speakers/headphones. My current combo is a Chord Mojo with Hifiman HE400i cans using the regular cables.
Analogue - tend to just buy the cheapest option 1 notch about what you get in the box, mainly for build quality rather than sound
Spend your money on source (these days a good DAC) and speakers/headphones. My current combo is a Chord Mojo with Hifiman HE400i cans using the regular cables.
I tested a few cables a while back - there was very little between them in terms of measured quality.
My measuring system is just a decent sound card - and ultimately all the cables eclipsed that.
Here's the measured results
Needless to say, these all sound the same in my system.
It's usually a poorly designed source component (CD player / DAC / etc.) that will sound different with different cables, as there are a few things which can cause this, no least of all variances in output impedance, output impedance to high being the chief reasons.
This is why a so called "passive" preamp is a bad idea - as the combination of variable output impedance (resistance) combined with the (inevitable) capacitance of the cable results in a variable frequency response which will change according to volume control position.
My measuring system is just a decent sound card - and ultimately all the cables eclipsed that.
Here's the measured results
Needless to say, these all sound the same in my system.
It's usually a poorly designed source component (CD player / DAC / etc.) that will sound different with different cables, as there are a few things which can cause this, no least of all variances in output impedance, output impedance to high being the chief reasons.
This is why a so called "passive" preamp is a bad idea - as the combination of variable output impedance (resistance) combined with the (inevitable) capacitance of the cable results in a variable frequency response which will change according to volume control position.
RedTrident said:
It was this
Ultra HDTV Premium 4K HDMI Cable 10 Meters | HDMI 2.0b, 4K at full 60Hz, 18Gbps, HDR, 3D
I didn't think it was bad value at under £30 for a 10 metre run. It works most of the time and only really fails on the PS4 where it couldn't detect the Resolution to [2160P - YUV420] or [2160p- RGB] and shows up as 1080p. Strange though as when switched to the amazon box it plays all their 4K stuff fine. Never quite figured it.
I'm moving home soon so the hdmi lead I end up using will be buried. The only cable I've come across that I've read works properly over this distance is a fibre hdmi cable that costs a considerable amount more.
The bandwidth from the PS4 will be higher that the Amazon Box, hence the failure. I have a 10m HDMI cable burried in the wall, specced for 4K. Works fine for 2160p @ 8 bit, no hope with 2160p @ 10 bit. I have managed to get the cable to work using a device called PXLDrive, this gives me full bandwidth to carry 2160p @ 10 bit for UHD BR.Ultra HDTV Premium 4K HDMI Cable 10 Meters | HDMI 2.0b, 4K at full 60Hz, 18Gbps, HDR, 3D
I didn't think it was bad value at under £30 for a 10 metre run. It works most of the time and only really fails on the PS4 where it couldn't detect the Resolution to [2160P - YUV420] or [2160p- RGB] and shows up as 1080p. Strange though as when switched to the amazon box it plays all their 4K stuff fine. Never quite figured it.
I'm moving home soon so the hdmi lead I end up using will be buried. The only cable I've come across that I've read works properly over this distance is a fibre hdmi cable that costs a considerable amount more.
As you've mentioned, fibre hdmi is the only way to get full 4K over a distance, however, the over CAT solutions are coming later this year.
KamSandhu44 said:
RedTrident said:
It was this
Ultra HDTV Premium 4K HDMI Cable 10 Meters | HDMI 2.0b, 4K at full 60Hz, 18Gbps, HDR, 3D
I didn't think it was bad value at under £30 for a 10 metre run. It works most of the time and only really fails on the PS4 where it couldn't detect the Resolution to [2160P - YUV420] or [2160p- RGB] and shows up as 1080p. Strange though as when switched to the amazon box it plays all their 4K stuff fine. Never quite figured it.
I'm moving home soon so the hdmi lead I end up using will be buried. The only cable I've come across that I've read works properly over this distance is a fibre hdmi cable that costs a considerable amount more.
The bandwidth from the PS4 will be higher that the Amazon Box, hence the failure. I have a 10m HDMI cable burried in the wall, specced for 4K. Works fine for 2160p @ 8 bit, no hope with 2160p @ 10 bit. I have managed to get the cable to work using a device called PXLDrive, this gives me full bandwidth to carry 2160p @ 10 bit for UHD BR.Ultra HDTV Premium 4K HDMI Cable 10 Meters | HDMI 2.0b, 4K at full 60Hz, 18Gbps, HDR, 3D
I didn't think it was bad value at under £30 for a 10 metre run. It works most of the time and only really fails on the PS4 where it couldn't detect the Resolution to [2160P - YUV420] or [2160p- RGB] and shows up as 1080p. Strange though as when switched to the amazon box it plays all their 4K stuff fine. Never quite figured it.
I'm moving home soon so the hdmi lead I end up using will be buried. The only cable I've come across that I've read works properly over this distance is a fibre hdmi cable that costs a considerable amount more.
As you've mentioned, fibre hdmi is the only way to get full 4K over a distance, however, the over CAT solutions are coming later this year.
8k will be here in 3 years
So just when you have geared up with the new telly,uhd blu ray,and fancy new cables it will all be obsolete.
I am also of the opinion that the pictures on offer are fast becoming better than the human eye can naturally see.
I find the mains lead discussions particularly interesting, firstly because the part of the chain you're affecting by swapping out the mains lead is actually very small, but secondly because if your equipment is noticeably affected by changes on that side then it suggests that the engineering is utter crap.
A *decent* power supply should be able to produce silky smooth outputs regardless of load or any crap presented at the input. Though as power supply design usually requires a modicum of talent and investment in quality components I can see why it might be an issue in a lot of boxes.
A filter conditioner on the input of more modest kit in a noisy environment is probably worth it but seriously even if you built an £xxK PSU with extreme performance requirements the only thing that was a consideration on the input cable was whether it could handle the volts and amps without failing, beyond that it's irrelevant.
I have honestly never seen a need to look beyond basic mains cables and have never worried too much about what was connected where or how beyond making sure the load was appropriate. And actual calibrated performance checks backed this up as working.
A *decent* power supply should be able to produce silky smooth outputs regardless of load or any crap presented at the input. Though as power supply design usually requires a modicum of talent and investment in quality components I can see why it might be an issue in a lot of boxes.
A filter conditioner on the input of more modest kit in a noisy environment is probably worth it but seriously even if you built an £xxK PSU with extreme performance requirements the only thing that was a consideration on the input cable was whether it could handle the volts and amps without failing, beyond that it's irrelevant.
I have honestly never seen a need to look beyond basic mains cables and have never worried too much about what was connected where or how beyond making sure the load was appropriate. And actual calibrated performance checks backed this up as working.
Jonesy23 said:
I find the mains lead discussions particularly interesting, firstly because the part of the chain you're affecting by swapping out the mains lead is actually very small, but secondly because if your equipment is noticeably affected by changes on that side then it suggests that the engineering is utter crap. <snip>
.
Jonesy you've hit the nail right on the head here..
In my experience the only time any cable has made any kind of significant difference is when the offending equipment has a poorly designed input / output interface.
And as for PSUs, like you say - it's not exactly rocket science to design a modestly competent PSU! (with the exception of switch mode stuff which requires a little more than average competence)
I find the worst offenders are USB and SPDIF interfaces, which are seemingly deliberately poorly engineered (the cynic in me suggests to promote cable sales).
TonyRPH said:
Jonesy you've hit the nail right on the head here.
In my experience the only time any cable has made any kind of significant difference is when the offending equipment has a poorly designed input / output interface.
And as for PSUs, like you say - it's not exactly rocket science to design a modestly competent PSU! (with the exception of switch mode stuff which requires a little more than average competence)
I find the worst offenders are USB and SPDIF interfaces, which are seemingly deliberately poorly engineered (the cynic in me suggests to promote cable sales).
what about a dedicated ring for a good hifi ? Not even on the main board but from a small garage type board .I love this set up In my experience the only time any cable has made any kind of significant difference is when the offending equipment has a poorly designed input / output interface.
And as for PSUs, like you say - it's not exactly rocket science to design a modestly competent PSU! (with the exception of switch mode stuff which requires a little more than average competence)
I find the worst offenders are USB and SPDIF interfaces, which are seemingly deliberately poorly engineered (the cynic in me suggests to promote cable sales).
brianashley said:
what about a dedicated ring for a good hifi ? Not even on the main board but from a small garage type board .I love this set up
If the Hi-Fi components are competently designed, mains feed shouldn't matter.Unless.. your mains feed is incredibly noisy, and then there are usually external issues at play there.
I remember reading about someone who lived in Singapore (I think it was) in a block of flats - and the lift in said flats played havoc with his mains supply.
But for the average house in suburbia - if you are suffering from noise on the mains then I suggest there is likely something else wrong somewhere.
InductionRoar said:
I accept these uber expensive cables are far from cost effective but surely they differ from the free cables supplied with your system?
There are several threads on various audio forums which have asked that question. I can recall several competently conducted tests where listeners fail differentiate between high end RCA cables and freebie patch cords. I recall one test where the high end cable was a newish top of the range product from Audio Note and the cheap RCA was a 40 year old freebie supplied with a £90.00 Sony cassette deck. The interconnect was used to send the output from £6000 Esoteric ( TEAC ) CD player to some mid range Mark Levinson amps.
http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm
https://www.audio-forums.com/threads/the-cable-tes...
Confirmation bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias will be hard at work for people who believe ( or don't believe ) that expensive cables work. The believer is very likely to perceive what they consider to be a genuine improvement in sound quality because that is what they expect and want to hear.
When you factor in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationa... then the believer/buyer's opinion is much more likely to be positive.
Evidence, from competently conducted tests, shows that unbiased listeners who have not had their perception corrupted by the two factors above cannot hear the differences between competently designed and constructed cables. It is possible that there are cables out there that can be identified when used in some systems but imho these do not fit into the competently designed and constructed category.
Edited by Crackie on Thursday 4th May 22:24
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