Cables - can you tell the difference?

[InductionRoar]

Crackie said:

InductionRoar said:

I accept these uber expensive cables are far from cost effective but surely they differ from the free cables supplied with your system?

There threads on various audio threads which have asked that question. I can recall several competently conducted tests where listeners fail differentiate between high end RCA cables and freebie patch cords.

In one test the high end cable was a newish top of the range product from Audio Note and the cheap RCA was a 40 year old freebie supplied with a £90.00 Sony cassette deck. The interconnect was used to send the output from £6000 Esoteric ( TEAC ) CD player to some mid range Mark Levinson amps.

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

https://www.audio-forums.com/threads/the-cable-tes...

Confirmation bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias will be hard at work for people who believe ( or don't believe ) that expensive cables work. The believer is very likely to perceive what they consider to be a genuine improvement in sound quality because that is what they expect and want to hear.

When you factor in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationa... then the believer/buyer's opinion is much more likely to be positive.

Evidence, from competently conducted tests, shows that unbiased listeners who have not had their perception corrupted by the two factors above cannot hear the differences between competently designed and constructed cables. It is possible that there are cables out there that can be identified when used in some systems but imho these do not fit into the competently designed and constructed category.

That is eye opening. Thank you.

[silentbrown]

WinstonWolf said:

I can't hear any sound over 12Khz, her hearing goes right up to 20Khz.

Yes, by the time you have enough spare cash to splurge on serious HiFi your ears will have deteriorated to the point where you can't really appreciate it!

But the real point is that there is absolutely no *measurable* advantage to most of this stuff. It's purely subjective.

This is fun https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-chord-company-l...

As for mains cabling or filters making any difference, pffft.

[TonyRPH]

silentbrown said:

<snip>
This is fun https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-chord-company-l...

I remember seeing those Ethernet cables on their website and thinking what utter bullst it was.

silentbrown said:

As for mains cabling or filters making any difference, pffft.

As pointed out earlier in the thread - in extreme cases - i.e. very noisy mains and poor equipment design - a mains filter will likely make a difference, not in tonality or imaging (as is often claimed) but just reduce overall noise.

But competently designed equipment should already have adequate filtering within the power supply circuitry to reject noise and the circuitry it is powering (if competently designed) should also be capable of rejecting noise on the mains.

I occasionally read cable reviews to give myself a chuckle - e.g. this "xyz" usb cable has holographic imaging and creates a huge 3D sound stage.

Yes, yes Mr Reviewer, of course it does - you just keep telling yourself that.

It takes a really, really bad USB cable (i.e. physically damaged or just very poorly made) to cause any kind of issues whatsoever.

[InductionRoar]

silentbrown said:

Yes, by the time you have enough spare cash to splurge on serious HiFi your ears will have deteriorated to the point where you can't really appreciate it!

But the real point is that there is absolutely no *measurable* advantage to most of this stuff. It's purely subjective.

This is fun https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-chord-company-l...

As for mains cabling or filters making any difference, pffft.

Hi-fi really is the perfect field in which to exploit people. Not everybody who has an interest in music has an in depth knowledge of the physics behind the sound, in much the same way that not everybody who drives a fast car understands the technology behind it. It's like fitting a K&N or a sports exhaust, there may be a tiny, tiny performance benefit but the customer feels that they have "upgraded" their pride and joy and to some that is enough, but to those in the know it is laughable. At least with car tuning you can clearly demonstrate performance gains on the track but "better sound" is too subjective and that is what the companies hide behind. After all, how can a barely pliable, braided cable at £500 per metre not perform better than the cheap and spindly offerings from B&Q?

Purists would scoff at the thought of aesthetics in hi-fi (particularly in cables), but it is no coincidence that the cables look more impressive as the price rises. You can even buy "braided dressing" to go over your cables to make them look more impressive. It's the carbon wrap of the hi-fi world.

I fully admit to being partially sucked in but I have never gone overboard and let's face it, you have to use something and if for a few quid more a more expensive product makes you happy then I say go for it. A few quid to some people though is ten grand for an interconnect so if there is a customer base, the market will follow.

Out of interest, what cables would people recommend for use with a £1m Moon set up, or similar? I cannot imagine one of those utilizing B&Q's budget range but you never know.

[silentbrown]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that.

I meant that you would be unable to measure (via mic/analayzer) any difference between (say) two different mains cables unless one of the cables was broken or your amp's PSU was incredibly badly designed.

[Crackie]

silentbrown said:

Yes, by the time you have enough spare cash to splurge on serious HiFi your ears will have deteriorated to the point where you can't really appreciate it!

But the real point is that there is absolutely no *measurable* advantage to most of this stuff. It's purely subjective.

This is fun https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-chord-company-l...

As for mains cabling or filters making any difference, pffft.

Mains quality is one area where I've heard significant subjective differences; not from cabling or filters but from variations in mains quality at different times of day. The improvement in a system's noise floor, between 'clean' mains early hours of the morning and 'dirty' mains during busy, high demand hours, is easily noticeable.

The thread is about cables though........... http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 4th May 23:25

[brianashley]

Crackie said:

Mains quality is one area where I've heard significant subjective differences; not from cabling or filters but from variations in mains quality at different times of day. The improvement in a system's noise floor, between 'clean' mains early hours of the morning and 'dirty' mains during busy, high demand hours, is easily noticeable.

The thread is about cables though........... http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 4th May 23:25

Me too. I could easily tell the difference between day time and 3am .

[TonyRPH]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

In a typical domestic setting, I would be surprised if any differences were measurable, due to ambient noise.

In an anechoic chamber maybe...

[TonyRPH]

brianashley said:

Me too. I could easily tell the difference between day time and 3am .

Unless you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere - late at night you are just experiencing much lower ambient noise (external sources - traffic, people etc.).

It's quite amazing how much ambient noise there is during the day - and this can actually be verified with a spectrum analyzer.

[WinstonWolf]

TonyRPH said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

In a typical domestic setting, I would be surprised if any differences were measurable, due to ambient noise.

In an anechoic chamber maybe...

That silence is spooky. If you're over 40 you could save a bloody fortune by having your ears analysed first. There's probably a ton of frequencies that your equipment is capable of that you simply can't hear.

I can now save a fortune as I know anything above 12Khz is wasted

Oldies should have a play with this

http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html

[jmorgan]

WinstonWolf said:

That silence is spooky. If you're over 40 you could save a bloody fortune by having your ears analysed first. There's probably a ton of frequencies that your equipment is capable of that you simply can't hear.

I can now save a fortune as I know anything above 12Khz is wasted

Oldies should have a play with this

http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html

13khz. Yeah, still have it....

Had to shake my head though to Doppler it (I assume that what the effect is)

[mackie1]

Did anyone do the Philips Golden Ears tests when it was available? I got most of the way through silver but got stuck on the lossy compression one. The clip the used made it really difficult to tell the difference.

This is a good objective test of a digital cable with bold claims:
http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/tvs-entertainment/7...

I think there is probably *some* merit to filtering USB power for external DACs as it is normally extremely noisy in ways mains power just isn't and can result in audible IMD. A fancy braided cable isn't going to do anything special in that area though. That said, I can't tell the difference between USB signal+power and optical+battery when hooking my Mojo up to my laptop but then the Mojo probably has the blackest background of any portable device under £1000.

[jmorgan]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Never knew how to deal with them, felt disorientated and could not stay in one. Only been in two over the years. I used to get a hearing check up in one was well, small box 8' or so square suspended (on springs?) and isolated from the building. Wish I had the printout from that, pretty much nailed my hearing that point in my age.

[TonyRPH]

mackie1 said:

<snip>
I think there is probably *some* merit to filtering USB power for external DACs as it is normally extremely noisy in ways mains power just isn't and can result in audible IMD. A fancy braided cable isn't going to do anything special in that area though. That said, I can't tell the difference between USB signal+power and optical+battery when hooking my Mojo up to my laptop but then the Mojo probably has the blackest background of any portable device under £1000.

This guy* has done a lot of measurements over the past few years, not only proving some things but also debunking a lot of myths surrounding Audiophool gizmos.

His entire blog is well worth a read if you have the time...

He has some interesting views on Meridan's MQA too (but that's another entire can of worms...)

• the link contains tests of various USB hubs etc. to see if they do reduce noise.

[brianashley]

TonyRPH said:

Unless you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere - late at night you are just experiencing much lower ambient noise (external sources - traffic, people etc.).

It's quite amazing how much ambient noise there is during the day - and this can actually be verified with a spectrum analyzer.

This is true . But my valves seems to like things more .

[ATG]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Some bright spark decided our office needed some chairs that let you have a private conversation even though you're sitting in the middle of an open-plan floor. They have very high backs that wrap around to the front edge of the seat and are made of soft, sound-absorbing materials. They're deployed in pairs facing each other across tiny, low tables. It's not completely anechoic, of course, but it creates a very, very noticeably acoustically dead space. It's all very clever, and it does actually work ... but ... it is unpleasantly disorientating, and it doesn't feel like you're in a private space (even though acoustically you are), so no one uses them. And they look stupid. So, all in all, a total failure.

[anonymous-user]

TonyRPH said:

This guy* has done a lot of measurements over the past few years, not only proving some things but also debunking a lot of myths surrounding Audiophool gizmos.

His entire blog is well worth a read if you have the time...

He has some interesting views on Meridan's MQA too (but that's another entire can of worms...)

• the link contains tests of various USB hubs etc. to see if they do reduce noise.

Thanks for that link - loads to read on there - this article about what a bad USB cable actually sounds like is good.

[markiii]

personally I'm middle ground on mains cables. Do they in themselves make a difference I doubt it. I do however beleive shielded mains cables can be an improvement when they run next to analogue interconnects.

So its not the "quality" of the mains having an impact so much as the lack of EMF being imparted to the RCA cable next to it

[TonyRPH]

markiii said:

personally I'm middle ground on mains cables. Do they in themselves make a difference I doubt it. I do however beleive shielded mains cables can be an improvement when they run next to analogue interconnects.

So its not the "quality" of the mains having an impact so much as the lack of EMF being imparted to the RCA cable next to it

I have tried this - running a mains cable alongside a signal cable whilst observing the signal on an oscilloscope.

It's only the crudest of analogue cables that fail to shield the signal adequately.

Shielded mains cable is not required.

Additionally - the earth that the screen in the shielded mains cable is attached to (usually mains earth) is generally at a different potential to the 'earth' of the analogue signal cable.

So the potential for interference still exists.

Edited to add:

The amount of interference generated by the mains cable will also be dependent on how much current is flowing through it.

It's also quite commonplace to see mains cables running a lot closer to analogue audio stages than you'd expect in a lot of audio equipment, especially the more compact stuff like Cyrus etc.

Edited by TonyRPH on Friday 5th May 13:16

[brianashley]

TonyRPH said:

I have tried this - running a mains cable alongside a signal cable whilst observing the signal on an oscilloscope.

It's only the crudest of analogue cables that fail to shield the signal adequately.

Shielded mains cable is not required.

Additionally - the earth that the screen in the shielded mains cable is attached to (usually mains earth) is generally at a different potential to the 'earth' of the analogue signal cable.

So the potential for interference still exists.

Edited to add:

The amount of interference generated by the mains cable will also be dependent on how much current is flowing through it.

It's also quite commonplace to see mains cables running a lot closer to analogue audio stages than you'd expect in a lot of audio equipment, especially the more compact stuff like Cyrus etc.

Edited by TonyRPH on Friday 5th May 13:16

You have gone "dark side" !! I cannot disagree with engineers or science etc. But sometimes things "just seem to work" .Best ever hifi upgrade is 3/4 bottle of red wine etc . stop doing the "maths" and chill Winston !