Has Hifi improved over the last 10 years?
Discussion
Crackie said:
I think improvements in source, amp and speakers have been small during the past 10 years. New speaker cone materials come in and go out of fashion but doped paper is still arguably as good as anything more recent.
I think there have been 'value' improvements in the past decade though. Some think the best of the low cost class D crop can perform as well as 'reference' single ended 300B valve gear.
Definitely agree that amps haven't moved on much (apart from, as you say, the best of class D finally sounding OK), but I have succumbed to the lure of new speaker cone materials (cue gratuitous high-end bling pic)I think there have been 'value' improvements in the past decade though. Some think the best of the low cost class D crop can perform as well as 'reference' single ended 300B valve gear.
Raidho's obsession is with building moving coil drivers that can integrate seamlessly with their planar HF unit...they started with polypropylene, moved on to ceramic coated aluminium and now use diamond coated ceramic coated aluminium. (which wouldn't have been possible 10 years ago).
Intuitively, you'd think the harder drivers would sound brighter but, in fact, it's the reverse...as the integration gets better, it sounds smoother to the ear while retaining resolution. To my ears, they have advanced what is possible from a speaker , but someone else might prefer a big pair of PMC BB5 , or even a pair of Tannoy Westminsters - ultimately its all in the ear of the beholder and we all look for different things in reproduction.
Woody2043 said:
Raidho's.....now youre talking. I can't remember what theyre little standmount is called but what a speaker. Something daft like £5k but if youve got a small room I dont think Ive ever heard better. If they've pulled off the same trick with yours they must be superb.
That would be the X1 I think....the D series really are a big step up from the X or C series and the level of engineering that go in to them is quite staggering...Although, to be fair, the stench of audiophile bulls
t in my listening room is well-nigh overpowering so, perhaps, my assessment is of limited value to the sensibly grounded Piston header!Some stuff has moved on, but many not.
I stopped box swapping 20 years ago when I moved to Meridian DSP speakers, they image beautifully, super smooth yet ultra detailed too.
Plus the DAC, pre amp and power amps are all built into the speakers. Plus being DSP the sound the same at all volumes, listening at night when the house is asleep they still sound as full and balanced as they do playing at reference levels, and that is something that really does make a difference unless you live on your own with no neighbours.
I also had some Quad ESL988s in the sitting room with Rel Subs and modified Quad 405-2 amp, again one of my favourite speakers of all time. Electrostatics when you get them right just can't be beat imho. They are based on the ESL63s which is speaker that debuted in 1979.
The other speakers that have genuinely impressed me that I have lived with, and I have tried loads have been, Roksan TR-1, Quad S2, Quad Z3, Scansonic MB2.5s and Raihdo X1's.
The one thing all the above have in common is ribbon tweeter.
Out of all those though it is the Quad S2 that has impressed me most, considering they are £599 retail they are stunning.
However, I still rate Meridian DSPs as the best 'all round' hifi I have heard and with an unlimited budget I wouldn't even look at anything else.
Yeah the latest DSP5200 SE is better than my original 18 bit DSP5000 speakers, but not by as much as you would think, so no I don't think it has moved on all that much.
I stopped box swapping 20 years ago when I moved to Meridian DSP speakers, they image beautifully, super smooth yet ultra detailed too.
Plus the DAC, pre amp and power amps are all built into the speakers. Plus being DSP the sound the same at all volumes, listening at night when the house is asleep they still sound as full and balanced as they do playing at reference levels, and that is something that really does make a difference unless you live on your own with no neighbours.
I also had some Quad ESL988s in the sitting room with Rel Subs and modified Quad 405-2 amp, again one of my favourite speakers of all time. Electrostatics when you get them right just can't be beat imho. They are based on the ESL63s which is speaker that debuted in 1979.
The other speakers that have genuinely impressed me that I have lived with, and I have tried loads have been, Roksan TR-1, Quad S2, Quad Z3, Scansonic MB2.5s and Raihdo X1's.
The one thing all the above have in common is ribbon tweeter.
Out of all those though it is the Quad S2 that has impressed me most, considering they are £599 retail they are stunning.
However, I still rate Meridian DSPs as the best 'all round' hifi I have heard and with an unlimited budget I wouldn't even look at anything else.
Yeah the latest DSP5200 SE is better than my original 18 bit DSP5000 speakers, but not by as much as you would think, so no I don't think it has moved on all that much.
There's no real definitive answer, but for a Pistonheads-oriented lateral-thinking approach, try watching the following video and decide whether you'd rather be in:
The 105 GTA
The GT3 RS
A Nissan GTR
A VW Campervan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI-WKde8Jgo&t=...
If you fancy the 105, your best bet is probably to spend a bit of cash reviving and upgrading your existing kit.
If the GT3 looks tempting, buying something shiny and new might be the way forward.
If the idea of the GTR appeals, DSP is probably the answer. Although, ultimately, you might feel you've lost something you can't quite put your finger on in the search for real world performance.
If you like the idea of the campervan, because it would be really convenient to park up on the inside of the Carousel and have a nice little picnic. buy yourself a Sonus and a house full of ceiling speakers.
The 105 GTA
The GT3 RS
A Nissan GTR
A VW Campervan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI-WKde8Jgo&t=...
If you fancy the 105, your best bet is probably to spend a bit of cash reviving and upgrading your existing kit.
If the GT3 looks tempting, buying something shiny and new might be the way forward.
If the idea of the GTR appeals, DSP is probably the answer. Although, ultimately, you might feel you've lost something you can't quite put your finger on in the search for real world performance.
If you like the idea of the campervan, because it would be really convenient to park up on the inside of the Carousel and have a nice little picnic. buy yourself a Sonus and a house full of ceiling speakers.
ian996 said:
There's no real definitive answer, but for a Pistonheads-oriented lateral-thinking approach, try watching the following video and decide whether you'd rather be in:
The 105 GTA
The GT3 RS
A Nissan GTR
A VW Campervan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI-WKde8Jgo&t=...
If you fancy the 105, your best bet is probably to spend a bit of cash reviving and upgrading your existing kit.
If the GT3 looks tempting, buying something shiny and new might be the way forward.
If the idea of the GTR appeals, DSP is probably the answer. Although, ultimately, you might feel you've lost something you can't quite put your finger on in the search for real world performance.
If you like the idea of the campervan, because it would be really convenient to park up on the inside of the Carousel and have a nice little picnic. buy yourself a Sonus and a house full of ceiling speakers.
Feels a bit like owning an E46 M3 or a pre Gaydon Aston Martin Vanquish S, and while it’s looking a bit dated, a rebushing and a good service would put some life back into it, and while you could spend a fortune on the latest adding convenience, efficiency and aesthetics, the spirit at the heart of why you own the thing is no better, possibly worse. Maybe that’s more an analogy for Linn Sondek over a CD player.The 105 GTA
The GT3 RS
A Nissan GTR
A VW Campervan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI-WKde8Jgo&t=...
If you fancy the 105, your best bet is probably to spend a bit of cash reviving and upgrading your existing kit.
If the GT3 looks tempting, buying something shiny and new might be the way forward.
If the idea of the GTR appeals, DSP is probably the answer. Although, ultimately, you might feel you've lost something you can't quite put your finger on in the search for real world performance.
If you like the idea of the campervan, because it would be really convenient to park up on the inside of the Carousel and have a nice little picnic. buy yourself a Sonus and a house full of ceiling speakers.
The class D look interesting but I may just start with a power amp service.
gizlaroc said:
Plus being DSP the sound the same at all volumes, listening at night when the house is asleep they still sound as full and balanced as they do playing at reference levels, and that is something that really does make a difference unless you live on your own with no neighbours.
Can you expand on that/provide links please 
As not looked into DSP much so not sure exactly what you mean by being as full and balanced as lower levels, sounds confusing to me seeing as the speakers aren't pushing as much air.
Edited by hyphen on Sunday 24th September 22:38
ian996 said:
Crackie said:
I think improvements in source, amp and speakers have been small during the past 10 years. New speaker cone materials come in and go out of fashion but doped paper is still arguably as good as anything more recent.
I think there have been 'value' improvements in the past decade though. Some think the best of the low cost class D crop can perform as well as 'reference' single ended 300B valve gear.
Definitely agree that amps haven't moved on much (apart from, as you say, the best of class D finally sounding OK), but I have succumbed to the lure of new speaker cone materials (cue gratuitous high-end bling pic)I think there have been 'value' improvements in the past decade though. Some think the best of the low cost class D crop can perform as well as 'reference' single ended 300B valve gear.
Raidho's obsession is with building moving coil drivers that can integrate seamlessly with their planar HF unit...they started with polypropylene, moved on to ceramic coated aluminium and now use diamond coated ceramic coated aluminium. (which wouldn't have been possible 10 years ago).
Intuitively, you'd think the harder drivers would sound brighter but, in fact, it's the reverse...as the integration gets better, it sounds smoother to the ear while retaining resolution. To my ears, they have advanced what is possible from a speaker , but someone else might prefer a big pair of PMC BB5 , or even a pair of Tannoy Westminsters - ultimately its all in the ear of the beholder and we all look for different things in reproduction.
gizlaroc said:
Electrostatics when you get them right just can't be beat imho.
Agree about electrostatics but I'm not fully convinced that is their method of operation that makes them so special. I think their open baffle dipole dispersion and lack of cabinet colouration are big factors too; there are some very well thought of open baffle dipoles / bipoles which use conventional drivers. Linkwitz 521, NOLA/ Alon, Impulse H1/H2, VMPS for examplehyphen said:
Can you expand on that/provide links please
As not looked into DSP much so not sure exactly what you mean by being as full and balanced as lower levels, sounds confusing to me seeing as the speakers aren't pushing as much air.
All it is, because the speaker is one system, it is designed to alter the bass, or in Meridians world it is the tilt (so like on an axis from mid range) depending on volume. It is extremely subtle, but after living with Meridian speakers and suddenly going back to conventional speakers the first thing I noticed was how when listening at night at say -35db compared with say -20db from reference during the day, everything sounds a bit think, almost like you need to increase the bass at night to make it sound balanced again. As not looked into DSP much so not sure exactly what you mean by being as full and balanced as lower levels, sounds confusing to me seeing as the speakers aren't pushing as much air.
Going back to a classic amp and speakers made me remember that most have a sweet spot, the point where it is still smooth but loud enough to have bite and dynamics.
With the Meridian DSP speakers it is like that at every volume, it is just a different volume.
It really is worth trying to get a proper demo of them if you can.
I sold my DSP5200s in the summer when I was not listening as much as night, put in some Quad Z3 ribbons and the Quad 606 MKII amp, keeping the Meridian G68 pre/pro and it was great.
However, after listening at night recently remembered what the DSP brought to the table in regards to low level listening.
The Z3 and 606 amp have been sold, unfortunately the cheapest pair of 5200s for sale at the moment are a £1000 more than I sold mine for, and I just lost £700 on the Quads, so need to wait for some to turn up at the right price.
Don't get me wrong, the Quads were superb, in some regards better than the Meridians, but the thing with the Meridians is I get them, set them up and......well that is it, never need to tweak them, they just work no matter what and always sound amazing.
gizlaroc said:
Very true, a mate built some open baffle speakers once and they had that same lack of colouration. They were very nice sounding.
I've been involved with manufacturing commercial hi-fi speakers for 20+ years now; this has allowed me to meet designers from Meridian, B&W, Mission, Celestion, TDL, Acoustic Energy, KEF and many others. Most of their higher end products put great effort into reducing the cabinet's acoustic output because "big cabinets tend to have big problems".Working closely with DML flat panel speakers ( NXT ) has helped me to understand why conventional six sided cabinets limit so many speakers. Most speaker enclosures are in effect six NXT speaker panels bonded together at their edges; they contribute a lot to what the listener hears. Open baffle speakers do not have this 'flaw' and I think its why their sound appeals to so many.
I have a pair of open baffles to use in the garden; they're made out of a couple of 2000mm x 600mm real wood kitchen worktops
Even when fed with an old 1990's Rotel integrated and Technics CD they reveal things that Impulse H2s & my big Duntechs cannot. It makes a huge difference when there is no cabinet or room to mess things up
I spent time with huge ML electrostatics a few years ago and definitely a love/hate relationship.
The fact they output as much energy rearwards as they do forwards made for 'interesting' room placement - 4ft from the nearest wall and they were almost perfect (never heard better with female voice and acoustic stuff) but placing 6ft tall speakers in the middle of the room was impossible to live with.
Could never get the bass to integrate perfectly with the panels either - always sounded like a delay between mid and bass. The newer versions run active adjustable bass units so probably far better.
Flawed gems which I still miss.
The fact they output as much energy rearwards as they do forwards made for 'interesting' room placement - 4ft from the nearest wall and they were almost perfect (never heard better with female voice and acoustic stuff) but placing 6ft tall speakers in the middle of the room was impossible to live with.
Could never get the bass to integrate perfectly with the panels either - always sounded like a delay between mid and bass. The newer versions run active adjustable bass units so probably far better.
Flawed gems which I still miss.
Edited by legzr1 on Monday 25th September 20:46
I forgot you had Duntechs Crackie.
I loved my Dunlavey Speakers, but was happy with the move to Meridian, but when I used to hear my mate James's SC-IV's being driven by Conrad Pre and Levinson monoblocks they still blow me away at times.
Yeah, electrostatics do need lots of room, I tried to sneak my 988s into the conservatory, but by the time they were in a position where she wasn't going to leave me, they sounded a bit poop!
To be fair, I think they spoilt the room too.
I loved my Dunlavey Speakers, but was happy with the move to Meridian, but when I used to hear my mate James's SC-IV's being driven by Conrad Pre and Levinson monoblocks they still blow me away at times.
Yeah, electrostatics do need lots of room, I tried to sneak my 988s into the conservatory, but by the time they were in a position where she wasn't going to leave me, they sounded a bit poop!
To be fair, I think they spoilt the room too.
legzr1 said:
I spent time with huge ML electrostatics a few years ago and definitely a love/hate relationship.
The fact they output as much energy rearwards as they do forwards made for 'interesting' room placement - 4ft from the nearest wall and they were almost perfect (never heard better with female voice and acoustic stuff) but placing 6ft tall speakers in the middle of the room was impossible to live with.
Could never get the bass to integrate perfectly with the panels either - always sounded like a delay between mid and bass. The newer versions run active adjustable bass units so probably far better.
Flawed gems which I still miss.
The fact they output as much energy rearwards as they do forwards made for 'interesting' room placement - 4ft from the nearest wall and they were almost perfect (never heard better with female voice and acoustic stuff) but placing 6ft tall speakers in the middle of the room was impossible to live with.
Could never get the bass to integrate perfectly with the panels either - always sounded like a delay between mid and bass. The newer versions run active adjustable bass units so probably far better.
Flawed gems which I still miss.
Edited by legzr1 on Monday 25th September 20:46
The rear radiation can be an issue with dipoles and the main reason I use mine outside; the bass is active too using 18" bass drivers. They still surprise and startle every time I hear them because they can disappear and portray real events like few speakers I've ever heard. Edited by Crackie on Monday 25th September 22:24
legzr1 said:
That description rings a bell.
Are they finished in a high gloss zebrano ?
Any pics?
I vaguely remember Jamo selling large floor standers with dual 14 or 18" open baffle bass drivers - looked interesting if a little expensive.
Nothing as exotic a high gloss Zebrano........they are pretty agricultural to be fair because appearance was never high on the priority list; they live in the garages most of the time when not being used. The baffles are kitchen worktops which were on offer from the local Homebase; I used modelling freeware to determine the optimum position for the drivers http://www.tolvan.com/index.php?page=/edge/edge.ph... . Baffle cutting, rebating, profiling the cutouts etc was done on the CNC at Amina Technologies when I was working for them. Are they finished in a high gloss zebrano ?
Any pics?
I vaguely remember Jamo selling large floor standers with dual 14 or 18" open baffle bass drivers - looked interesting if a little expensive.
The Kevlar drivers were chosen because of their wide bandwidth and well controlled top end performance. Upper harmonics are well damped so there is no need for crossover components in the mid circuit. Ribbon tweeter comes in at 4.5k to phase match the mids' natural rolloff. 95db/1W/1M.
Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 26th September 08:25
^^^^^^^ Upcyling at its best! I particularly like the uPVC window frames and the budget shelf brackets.
"Has hi-fi improved over the last ten years?" Who can say? It's too subjective.
You can be fairly sure that your hearing is deteriorating at a faster rate than any improvement
and the louder the music the greater the loss.
I haven't heard a lot of the newest kit but can comment on the Class D question in one respect.
I'm involved in PA sound and we have amp racks with 5 Yamaha Class D amps in, each one rated at 5000W.
They are good on mid and high duty but are less so on sub and are comprehensive out-gunned by our ancient
CROWN 5000VZs.
I doubt that I could make a solid judgement anymore, given the state of my hearing but the best speakers I have heard
in the past were ATC50 followed closely by Ruark Accolades, both very old designs.
"Has hi-fi improved over the last ten years?" Who can say? It's too subjective.
You can be fairly sure that your hearing is deteriorating at a faster rate than any improvement
and the louder the music the greater the loss.
I haven't heard a lot of the newest kit but can comment on the Class D question in one respect.
I'm involved in PA sound and we have amp racks with 5 Yamaha Class D amps in, each one rated at 5000W.
They are good on mid and high duty but are less so on sub and are comprehensive out-gunned by our ancient
CROWN 5000VZs.
I doubt that I could make a solid judgement anymore, given the state of my hearing but the best speakers I have heard
in the past were ATC50 followed closely by Ruark Accolades, both very old designs.
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