Has Hifi improved over the last 10 years?
Discussion
Crackie said:
Nothing as exotic a high gloss Zebrano........they are pretty agricultural to be fair because appearance was never high on the priority list; they live in the garages most of the time when not being used. The baffles are kitchen worktops which were on offer from the local Homebase; I used modelling freeware to determine the optimum position for the drivers http://www.tolvan.com/index.php?page=/edge/edge.ph... . Baffle cutting, rebating, profiling the cutouts etc was done on the CNC at Amina Technologies when I was working for them.
The Kevlar drivers were chosen because of their wide bandwidth and well controlled top end performance. Upper harmonics are well damped so there is no need for crossover components in the mid circuit. Ribbon tweeter comes in at 4.5k to phase match the mids' natural rolloff. 95db/1W/1M.
Ah, not the ones I was thinking of but similar open baffle design with multi driver mids.The Kevlar drivers were chosen because of their wide bandwidth and well controlled top end performance. Upper harmonics are well damped so there is no need for crossover components in the mid circuit. Ribbon tweeter comes in at 4.5k to phase match the mids' natural rolloff. 95db/1W/1M.
I'd lay a fiver that some of your guests, used to dab radio in the car and lifestyle one-box wonders at home, would dismiss those on first sight but stand gob smacked after listening to them.
Excellent
spyder dryver said:
^^^^^^^ Upcyling at its best! I particularly like the uPVC window frames and the budget shelf brackets.
"Has hi-fi improved over the last ten years?" Who can say? It's too subjective.
You can be fairly sure that your hearing is deteriorating at a faster rate than any improvement
and the louder the music the greater the loss.
I haven't heard a lot of the newest kit but can comment on the Class D question in one respect.
I'm involved in PA sound and we have amp racks with 5 Yamaha Class D amps in, each one rated at 5000W.
They are good on mid and high duty but are less so on sub and are comprehensive out-gunned by our ancient
CROWN 5000VZs.
I doubt that I could make a solid judgement anymore, given the state of my hearing but the best speakers I have heard
in the past were ATC50 followed closely by Ruark Accolades, both very old designs.
Both the speakers you memotion use dome mid drivers if I remember correctly."Has hi-fi improved over the last ten years?" Who can say? It's too subjective.
You can be fairly sure that your hearing is deteriorating at a faster rate than any improvement
and the louder the music the greater the loss.
I haven't heard a lot of the newest kit but can comment on the Class D question in one respect.
I'm involved in PA sound and we have amp racks with 5 Yamaha Class D amps in, each one rated at 5000W.
They are good on mid and high duty but are less so on sub and are comprehensive out-gunned by our ancient
CROWN 5000VZs.
I doubt that I could make a solid judgement anymore, given the state of my hearing but the best speakers I have heard
in the past were ATC50 followed closely by Ruark Accolades, both very old designs.
Something in that methinks!
The past 20 or so years has seen most, but not all, speaker manufacturers chasing flat response down to silly low Hz at one end then 45KHz at the other seemily forgetting the important mid area - no coincidence that the memorable speakers concentrate a lot on dome mid drivers or magnesium/ceramic mid drivers.
Years ago, Ruarks top models (excalibur?) doubled up on the mid drivers per speaker - only ever got a quick listen, well out of my budget at the time but my God, they were fantastic.
Production stopped as they were too expensive to manufacture and keep to almost sensible prices
Years later, got the chance to buy the next model down (Solstice - single mid dome) but seller was mucking around, Martin Logan's popped up and that was that.
gizlaroc said:
I forgot you had Duntechs Crackie.
I loved my Dunlavey Speakers, but was happy with the move to Meridian, but when I used to hear my mate James's SC-IV's being driven by Conrad Pre and Levinson monoblocks they still blow me away at times.
Yeah, electrostatics do need lots of room, I tried to sneak my 988s into the conservatory, but by the time they were in a position where she wasn't going to leave me, they sounded a bit poop!
To be fair, I think they spoilt the room too.
I loved my Dunlavey Speakers, but was happy with the move to Meridian, but when I used to hear my mate James's SC-IV's being driven by Conrad Pre and Levinson monoblocks they still blow me away at times.
Yeah, electrostatics do need lots of room, I tried to sneak my 988s into the conservatory, but by the time they were in a position where she wasn't going to leave me, they sounded a bit poop!
To be fair, I think they spoilt the room too.
it would have been a spectacular effort to get the Quads into the conservatory...can't blame a man for trying.My wife is getting to end of her tether with biggish speakers all over the place. I still have the Duntechs, they are hooked up to the TV now and the Impulse H2's are in the dining room; I still use them both as benchmarks when developing new products.
spyder dryver said:
^^^^^^^ Upcyling at its best! I particularly like the uPVC window frames and the budget shelf brackets.
"Has hi-fi improved over the last ten years?" Who can say? It's too subjective.
You can be fairly sure that your hearing is deteriorating at a faster rate than any improvement
and the louder the music the greater the loss.
I haven't heard a lot of the newest kit but can comment on the Class D question in one respect.
I'm involved in PA sound and we have amp racks with 5 Yamaha Class D amps in, each one rated at 5000W.
They are good on mid and high duty but are less so on sub and are comprehensive out-gunned by our ancient
CROWN 5000VZs.
I doubt that I could make a solid judgement anymore, given the state of my hearing but the best speakers I have heard
in the past were ATC50 followed closely by Ruark Accolades, both very old designs.
I agree about hearing deterioration, I'm 53 now and my HF upper limit is down to 13.5kHz "Has hi-fi improved over the last ten years?" Who can say? It's too subjective.
You can be fairly sure that your hearing is deteriorating at a faster rate than any improvement
and the louder the music the greater the loss.
I haven't heard a lot of the newest kit but can comment on the Class D question in one respect.
I'm involved in PA sound and we have amp racks with 5 Yamaha Class D amps in, each one rated at 5000W.
They are good on mid and high duty but are less so on sub and are comprehensive out-gunned by our ancient
CROWN 5000VZs.
I doubt that I could make a solid judgement anymore, given the state of my hearing but the best speakers I have heard
in the past were ATC50 followed closely by Ruark Accolades, both very old designs.
Also agree about sound perception being a very subjective thing and that big active ATCs SCMs are very good indeed. Best I've heard ( after big Dunlavys )
Can't beat a bit of upcycling
but upvc window frames ?? How dare you ?? Nothing but the best aluminium conservatory extrusions.for these stands . Next year they'll be getting treated to one of these to do the crossover work in the digital domain and correct the driver's responses. http://cpc.farnell.com/mini-dsp/mdsp-24/digital-si...Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 26th September 23:50
Apologies for going way off topic.............
Whilst I don't think the ultimate performance conventional source/amp/speakers type hi-fi has improved significantly during the past 10 years, I do think the 'cost of performance' has reduced. Professional & semi-pro active speakers are sold without much of the bulls
t and snake oil that, all too often, accompanies hi-fi sales and marketing. They offer great value and a very simple soluntion relative to conventional hi-fi.
The performance of pair of these https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/focal-alpha-6... or similar products from Tannoy, Genelec, Adam Audio, Mackie, would be very hard to achieve with a conventional Hi-fi amp and speakers at the same price point. Laptop - USB DAC - Active speakers = simple hi-fi.
If you you have the budget then some bigger Adam Audios, Genelecs or better still Neumans ( nee Klein and Hummel ) are stunning. I spent a lot of money building the active speakers in my main system; it was fun to do and I learned a great deal but sometimes I think I should have bought some ATC SCM50As or a pair of these. https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/neumann-kh420
Only sometimes though..........
Whilst I don't think the ultimate performance conventional source/amp/speakers type hi-fi has improved significantly during the past 10 years, I do think the 'cost of performance' has reduced. Professional & semi-pro active speakers are sold without much of the bulls
t and snake oil that, all too often, accompanies hi-fi sales and marketing. They offer great value and a very simple soluntion relative to conventional hi-fi. The performance of pair of these https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/focal-alpha-6... or similar products from Tannoy, Genelec, Adam Audio, Mackie, would be very hard to achieve with a conventional Hi-fi amp and speakers at the same price point. Laptop - USB DAC - Active speakers = simple hi-fi.
If you you have the budget then some bigger Adam Audios, Genelecs or better still Neumans ( nee Klein and Hummel ) are stunning. I spent a lot of money building the active speakers in my main system; it was fun to do and I learned a great deal but sometimes I think I should have bought some ATC SCM50As or a pair of these. https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/neumann-kh420
Only sometimes though..........
Edited by Crackie on Wednesday 27th September 18:41
andy_s said:
Crackie, you've given me a good idea to do something similarly 'bigly' and stack them up in the living room with a big smile on my face for when my wife gets home. They'd make the Audiostatics I really fancy look neat and tidy in comparison!
Have you ever had a 'play' with NXT before or Graham Bank's BMR drivers ? I worked for Amina Technologies design department between 2012 and 2016; they have some very bright guys in their R&D team. Their big in-wall subwoofer is remarkable and their flat speakers are too........... NXT was dismissed by many in its early years because the technology was in its infancy and many of the early products weren't great. Today BMR drivers are used by Naim, Rega and Cambridge Audio and I know just how good Amina's in house transducers are when used with optimum panel materials.
If you fancy making something then I'd have a look at NXT. This review of Podium Sounds speaker shows what can be achieved. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/podium/1.html
Its not difficult to achieve or improve on this level of performance for relatively little outlay if you can cope with big panels in the house. Transducer ( exciter ) performance has moved on a lot in the decade since the Podiums were designed. There are better performing, and more consitent, panel materials available now too.
Edited by Crackie on Sunday 1st October 16:10
legzr1 said:
...
Years ago, Ruarks top models (excalibur?) doubled up on the mid drivers per speaker - only ever got a quick listen, well out of my budget at the time but my God, they were fantastic.
Production stopped as they were too expensive to manufacture and keep to almost sensible prices
Years later, got the chance to buy the next model down (Solstice - single mid dome) but seller was mucking around, Martin Logan's popped up and that was that.
There are a pair of Ruark Crusaders on ebay at £750 at the moment. Someone might be getting an early Christmas box or two. Sadly, not me.Years ago, Ruarks top models (excalibur?) doubled up on the mid drivers per speaker - only ever got a quick listen, well out of my budget at the time but my God, they were fantastic.
Production stopped as they were too expensive to manufacture and keep to almost sensible prices
Years later, got the chance to buy the next model down (Solstice - single mid dome) but seller was mucking around, Martin Logan's popped up and that was that.
One of the things that has changed in recent years is the ability to use software and measurements to find out how to improve the sound in the room. No amount of good kit will sound right if it isn't working properly with the room and the seating position.
That software is often built-in to AV kit to give a general correction to delays and room reverberation nodes and it can sometimes be a huge improvement. What I'm thinking of in particular is software like REW where you can measure the response at various positions of speakers and seating and make improvements. This is particularly effective with the positioning of a sub. Impossible tech even a few years ago and getting the room factors sorted can make an improvement to new and old kit alike.
My stuff is a mixture. Modern amplification and digital signal processing, but speakers I paid £495 for in the early 80's.
That software is often built-in to AV kit to give a general correction to delays and room reverberation nodes and it can sometimes be a huge improvement. What I'm thinking of in particular is software like REW where you can measure the response at various positions of speakers and seating and make improvements. This is particularly effective with the positioning of a sub. Impossible tech even a few years ago and getting the room factors sorted can make an improvement to new and old kit alike.
My stuff is a mixture. Modern amplification and digital signal processing, but speakers I paid £495 for in the early 80's.
karma mechanic said:
One of the things that has changed in recent years is the ability to use software and measurements to find out how to improve the sound in the room. No amount of good kit will sound right if it isn't working properly with the room and the seating position.
That software is often built-in to AV kit to give a general correction to delays and room reverberation nodes and it can sometimes be a huge improvement. What I'm thinking of in particular is software like REW where you can measure the response at various positions of speakers and seating and make improvements. This is particularly effective with the positioning of a sub. Impossible tech even a few years ago and getting the room factors sorted can make an improvement to new and old kit alike.
My stuff is a mixture. Modern amplification and digital signal processing, but speakers I paid £495 for in the early 80's.
REW is good, they've had a linkup with MiniDSP for man years. REW measures the room response and then generates a corrective curve for the system. The corrective curve has to be 'hosted' somewhere in the playback chain and that's where MiniDSP comes in. Here's a link to the REW forum on the MiniDSp website https://www.minidsp.com/forum/rew-forumThat software is often built-in to AV kit to give a general correction to delays and room reverberation nodes and it can sometimes be a huge improvement. What I'm thinking of in particular is software like REW where you can measure the response at various positions of speakers and seating and make improvements. This is particularly effective with the positioning of a sub. Impossible tech even a few years ago and getting the room factors sorted can make an improvement to new and old kit alike.
My stuff is a mixture. Modern amplification and digital signal processing, but speakers I paid £495 for in the early 80's.
REW has taken a bit of a back seat in recent years becuase of MiniDSP link to Dirac Research. https://www.minidsp.com/images/documents/Product%2...
Dirac works over a wider bandwidth and carries out phase correction as well as amplitude correction. https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/2x4h...
Crackie said:
Dirac works over a wider bandwidth and carries out phase correction as well as amplitude correction. https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/2x4h...
You don't have to pay for Dirac though, once you are able to use REW for measurements the next step can be the free RePhase software to work with phase. The generated FIR filters can then be loaded into the miniDSP.https://www.minidsp.com/applications/advanced-tool...
Another example of hitherto-impossible technology.
(Happy miniDSP user here, saving up to get another 2x4 HD to move my current project from 'pretty good, could leave it like that' on to its final form).
karma mechanic said:
(Happy miniDSP user here, saving up to get another 2x4 HD to move my current project from 'pretty good, could leave it like that' on to its final form).
Good work with the 2x4 HD(s)......I have a 4x10 at the heart of my main system but I'm not using it for room correction. The 4x10 is only doing crossover work, driver response correction and a little bit of driver time alignment. As you say they are capable of doing things that were very difficult to achieve a few years ago even if you had a huge budget and now they're are available for £100.Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 3rd October 01:01
Apologies for bumping this thread but after spending a bit of time reading up on Class D and Hypex Ncores in particular I’ve decided to take a punt on a tiny pair of mono blocks.
From reading reviews from ‘professionals’ and hobbyists (whose opinions I trust) it looks to me that digital is finally here to challenge the big hitters using Class A and A/B.
The amps in question are from Nord, a small operation based in Cheltenham who add their own separately-sourced op-amps and case work/ancillaries to Hypex NC500 boards.
They give impressive specs and decent output down to 2 ohms (good for me as I seem to have a habit of choosing awkward speakers proving difficult to drive.
I’ve recent experience with big MF and Krell amps and currently use a huge EAD multichannel amp with 8 300w/ch channels in a huge 55Kg box.
I’ll post back on here once they arrive and I’ve given them a chance to do their thing if anyone’s interested.
Huge thread here: http://www.audioshark.org/amplifiers-8/nord-one-up...
Designer of the Ncore tech: https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/gad...
Nord website: https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk
I’m looking forward to these and I’m hopeful they’ll equal what I have at half the price, a fifth of the weight and a tenth of the size!
From reading reviews from ‘professionals’ and hobbyists (whose opinions I trust) it looks to me that digital is finally here to challenge the big hitters using Class A and A/B.
The amps in question are from Nord, a small operation based in Cheltenham who add their own separately-sourced op-amps and case work/ancillaries to Hypex NC500 boards.
They give impressive specs and decent output down to 2 ohms (good for me as I seem to have a habit of choosing awkward speakers proving difficult to drive.
I’ve recent experience with big MF and Krell amps and currently use a huge EAD multichannel amp with 8 300w/ch channels in a huge 55Kg box.
I’ll post back on here once they arrive and I’ve given them a chance to do their thing if anyone’s interested.
Huge thread here: http://www.audioshark.org/amplifiers-8/nord-one-up...
Designer of the Ncore tech: https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/gad...
Nord website: https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk
I’m looking forward to these and I’m hopeful they’ll equal what I have at half the price, a fifth of the weight and a tenth of the size!
They’ve arrived and I’m letting them warm through before powering up - condensation and big SMPS don’t mix too well.
First impressions...
Similar weight to a plastic supermarket DVD player (!!) which is quite a shock after years of two-man lift behemoths but they look and feel quite well built. Decent quality socketry and binding posts. Casework is better than I was expecting - apparently these ‘SE’ models use Japanese sourced metal work and they’re a step above the normal DIY boxes.
Still can’t believe how small and light they are - both together are smaller and about half the weight of my pre-amp.
I’m currently bi-amping the B&Ws and, typically, the speaker cable is too thick to ‘common’ and fit into single banana plugs and I don’t have the links for the speaker inputs so need to rob the 10p/metre cable I use in the garage - should be good and I expect the cable believers to be squirming while reading this
Should be all up and running in a couple of hours.
If they sound a bit st I’ll not hold back with my opinion.
A little geeky perhaps (and the purists won’t be happy) but the op-amps are swappable in 5 mins. They’re currently fitted with the expensive ones but replacements to alter the sound are available for £70. It’s like going back to the days of tube rolling/swapping without the dangerous voltages to catch out the unwary.
Quick pic to show the size:
First impressions...
Similar weight to a plastic supermarket DVD player (!!) which is quite a shock after years of two-man lift behemoths but they look and feel quite well built. Decent quality socketry and binding posts. Casework is better than I was expecting - apparently these ‘SE’ models use Japanese sourced metal work and they’re a step above the normal DIY boxes.
Still can’t believe how small and light they are - both together are smaller and about half the weight of my pre-amp.
I’m currently bi-amping the B&Ws and, typically, the speaker cable is too thick to ‘common’ and fit into single banana plugs and I don’t have the links for the speaker inputs so need to rob the 10p/metre cable I use in the garage - should be good and I expect the cable believers to be squirming while reading this
Should be all up and running in a couple of hours.
If they sound a bit s
t I’ll not hold back with my opinion.A little geeky perhaps (and the purists won’t be happy) but the op-amps are swappable in 5 mins. They’re currently fitted with the expensive ones but replacements to alter the sound are available for £70. It’s like going back to the days of tube rolling/swapping without the dangerous voltages to catch out the unwary.
Quick pic to show the size:
Well there’s an enjoyable afternoon spent going from Ludovico Einaudi to Rita Ora including a bit of Springsteen, Top 100 UK hits (don’t ask....but the bass in ‘Say Something’ had my kidneys smiling), Faith no More, Zepplin etc etc.
My speakers are an awkward load and twin 10” woofers per speaker have presented problems to even well-regarded amps with drone and wallowing.
That’s no longer a problem.
These little boxes of wonder grab them by the bks and never seem to lose control. Even at quite rediculous levels.
But, as enjoyable as that is it wasn’t totally unexpected as I’ve used a few subwoofers over the years with digital amps up in the kilowatt output range.
No, what is really surprising is the way they deal with everything else - I’m impressed. Really impressed.
I’ve read reviews and posts on forums telling tales of owners of quite exotic equipment dumping it all in favour of these. Yeah, usual hyperbole etc etc.
Well, I can quite believe it.
Nothing short of a revelation.
Oh, and I’ve had them blasting and playing at almost silent for hours and they’re barely warm to the touch. But, the most impressive thing about them is the silence. The silence between notes. The silence between tracks. No matter the volume. It’s quite uncanny at times.
Enough for now.
My speakers are an awkward load and twin 10” woofers per speaker have presented problems to even well-regarded amps with drone and wallowing.
That’s no longer a problem.
These little boxes of wonder grab them by the b
ks and never seem to lose control. Even at quite rediculous levels.But, as enjoyable as that is it wasn’t totally unexpected as I’ve used a few subwoofers over the years with digital amps up in the kilowatt output range.
No, what is really surprising is the way they deal with everything else - I’m impressed. Really impressed.
I’ve read reviews and posts on forums telling tales of owners of quite exotic equipment dumping it all in favour of these. Yeah, usual hyperbole etc etc.
Well, I can quite believe it.
Nothing short of a revelation.
Oh, and I’ve had them blasting and playing at almost silent for hours and they’re barely warm to the touch. But, the most impressive thing about them is the silence. The silence between notes. The silence between tracks. No matter the volume. It’s quite uncanny at times.
Enough for now.
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