Speaker Cables...
Discussion
Oh, apparently you don't use it as a plug. You just plug it in near your HiFi. Just keep adding them until you stop noticing improvements.
Dick Turpin said:
Clamping spikes and surges
SuperClamps are plug-in devices designed to improve the sound of your Hi-Fi or Home Cinema by reducing the effects of mains voltage spikes. They're designed by us and offer a very simple way to upgrade your system.
SuperClamps consist of two components – one a fast, solid state device culled from aerospace applications and the other a varistor to absorb the spike energy. These two components are mounted into a mains plug which you simply plug into a power socket (one close to your Hi-Fi system is ideal). Nothing needs to be connected to the plug – they will work as long as the socket they are plugged into is switched on. They are not designed to replace the 13A plug on a cable.
How many?
You can fit as many SuperClamps as you like. One customer kept adding them until he stopped hearing improvements - and he had over 15. The SuperClamps work particularly well plugged into unused sockets throughout the house and there's a saving to be had if ordering a triple pack.
The versions
SuperClamps are available mounted into a mains plug as on this page. They are also available mounted in a two-way 'cube' – the SuperCube – which is useful if you don't have a spare socket to connect a SuperClamp plug.
SuperClamps are also an optional upgrade on our PowerBar mains extensions and any power cable that is fitted with a WattGate plug. The components are fitted internally for optimum performance. To add a SuperClamp to any of these products, check the 'SuperClamp' box on the product page at the point of ordering and it will be included.
SuperClamps are also incorporated as standard in the Silencer and MiniPurifier power filters, and also into our XBlock mains extensions. If you have any of these products, you'll be benefitting from the SuperClamp.
Maintaining their effectiveness
SuperClamps wear out over time and become less effective: we recommend replacing SuperClamp components every five years. Any product with a SuperClamp can be returned to us for factory replacement of the parts at lower cost than buying a new one. To arrange this, Contact Us.
What is the sorcery held within this plug?SuperClamps are plug-in devices designed to improve the sound of your Hi-Fi or Home Cinema by reducing the effects of mains voltage spikes. They're designed by us and offer a very simple way to upgrade your system.
SuperClamps consist of two components – one a fast, solid state device culled from aerospace applications and the other a varistor to absorb the spike energy. These two components are mounted into a mains plug which you simply plug into a power socket (one close to your Hi-Fi system is ideal). Nothing needs to be connected to the plug – they will work as long as the socket they are plugged into is switched on. They are not designed to replace the 13A plug on a cable.
How many?
You can fit as many SuperClamps as you like. One customer kept adding them until he stopped hearing improvements - and he had over 15. The SuperClamps work particularly well plugged into unused sockets throughout the house and there's a saving to be had if ordering a triple pack.
The versions
SuperClamps are available mounted into a mains plug as on this page. They are also available mounted in a two-way 'cube' – the SuperCube – which is useful if you don't have a spare socket to connect a SuperClamp plug.
SuperClamps are also an optional upgrade on our PowerBar mains extensions and any power cable that is fitted with a WattGate plug. The components are fitted internally for optimum performance. To add a SuperClamp to any of these products, check the 'SuperClamp' box on the product page at the point of ordering and it will be included.
SuperClamps are also incorporated as standard in the Silencer and MiniPurifier power filters, and also into our XBlock mains extensions. If you have any of these products, you'll be benefitting from the SuperClamp.
Maintaining their effectiveness
SuperClamps wear out over time and become less effective: we recommend replacing SuperClamp components every five years. Any product with a SuperClamp can be returned to us for factory replacement of the parts at lower cost than buying a new one. To arrange this, Contact Us.
To answer the original question...
The cable linked to has 13 strands of 0.2mm copper. This has a cross sectional area of 0.41mm2, and corresponds to an AWG (American wire gauge) of 21.
[url]Here's|https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjDyOS70_fWAhWohVQKHXZuBMcQFgg0MAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.belden.com%2Fdocs%2Fupload%2FSpeaker-Cable-Selection-Guide.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2_2iyFLXte2m-mDeRpt6H2[\url] a link to a table explaining how speaker cable losses can reduce signal amplitude at your speakers.
In the table, if you had a 4 Ohm speaker and 46ft of 22AWG (a wee bit skinnier than 13*0.2mm2) speaker cable, only 50% of what comes out of your amp actually gets to your speaker. The rest of the power is lost in the cable. This is not half the volume, it's half the power, because your ear is logarithmic, you'll not notice much change. Twice as loud requires ten times the power.
That said if you do turn your amp up to compensate, you may introduce clipping. You may also see a reduced output from the amp, as now you're driving an 8 ohm speaker (4 Ohm speaker + 4 Ohms of cable), rather than an optimally matched 4 Ohm speaker.
You will also find that over time, the ends of the speaker cable you've listed will oxidise and as they do so, the losses will increase. To get around this use oxygen free copper cable. It's not supposed to oxidise, in my experience it still does, but much more slowly.
I should be clear, at the frequencies we're talking about, this oxidisation only affects the connections. Oxidisation in the middle of the cable won't affect the signal.
Next let's address linearity. All cables are effectively low pass filters. As the frequency of the transmitted signals increase, so do the losses. However, this effect doesn't have a practical effect until you're way past the audio band. And I mean frequencies 100s of times higher than anything an audio amp can deal with.
In the audio range, speaker cable will not attenuate a high frequency signal more than a low frequency signal. With the right equipment it's easy to measure this effect and show how flat or otherwise a cable's response is.
Given that this measurement can be performed in an hour and that it will conclusively and objectively demonstrate how two cables vary, you have to ask why manufacturer's of very expensive audio cables don't publish these results.
So in summary, this cable will suffice unless:
I do this for a living. I'm an electronics engineer designing systems that run in the GHz range, so characterisation of copper signal paths is something I deal with as part of the day job.
The cable linked to has 13 strands of 0.2mm copper. This has a cross sectional area of 0.41mm2, and corresponds to an AWG (American wire gauge) of 21.
[url]Here's|https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjDyOS70_fWAhWohVQKHXZuBMcQFgg0MAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.belden.com%2Fdocs%2Fupload%2FSpeaker-Cable-Selection-Guide.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2_2iyFLXte2m-mDeRpt6H2[\url] a link to a table explaining how speaker cable losses can reduce signal amplitude at your speakers.
In the table, if you had a 4 Ohm speaker and 46ft of 22AWG (a wee bit skinnier than 13*0.2mm2) speaker cable, only 50% of what comes out of your amp actually gets to your speaker. The rest of the power is lost in the cable. This is not half the volume, it's half the power, because your ear is logarithmic, you'll not notice much change. Twice as loud requires ten times the power.
That said if you do turn your amp up to compensate, you may introduce clipping. You may also see a reduced output from the amp, as now you're driving an 8 ohm speaker (4 Ohm speaker + 4 Ohms of cable), rather than an optimally matched 4 Ohm speaker.
You will also find that over time, the ends of the speaker cable you've listed will oxidise and as they do so, the losses will increase. To get around this use oxygen free copper cable. It's not supposed to oxidise, in my experience it still does, but much more slowly.
I should be clear, at the frequencies we're talking about, this oxidisation only affects the connections. Oxidisation in the middle of the cable won't affect the signal.
Next let's address linearity. All cables are effectively low pass filters. As the frequency of the transmitted signals increase, so do the losses. However, this effect doesn't have a practical effect until you're way past the audio band. And I mean frequencies 100s of times higher than anything an audio amp can deal with.
In the audio range, speaker cable will not attenuate a high frequency signal more than a low frequency signal. With the right equipment it's easy to measure this effect and show how flat or otherwise a cable's response is.
Given that this measurement can be performed in an hour and that it will conclusively and objectively demonstrate how two cables vary, you have to ask why manufacturer's of very expensive audio cables don't publish these results.
So in summary, this cable will suffice unless:
- You have very long cable runs.
- You are frequently running high power.
- You can't be bothered to trim 6" of the cable in a few years to get expose fresh unoxidised copper.
- You want to impress your mates with thick cable.
- You're easily parted from you're hard earned and desperately seeking an inaudible placebo.
I do this for a living. I'm an electronics engineer designing systems that run in the GHz range, so characterisation of copper signal paths is something I deal with as part of the day job.
mikeveal said:
To answer the original question...
Interesting stuff. Would you agree with these guidelines (using regular off the shelf oxygen free copper)?
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/spea...
WinstonWolf said:
Those that say they can hear a difference probably have better hearing than those that say you can't 
http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html
I absolutely would not claim that this is the case. Rather, I'd suggest that those who claim they can hear a difference are listening for different aspects of reproduction and their approach to listening may be a little different.http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html
From another view-point - those that suggest cable differences are inaudible tend to attribute claims to the contrary to auto-suggestion...ie, this costs so much (or I have spent so much) it MUST be better.
However, who is more likely to be affected by auto-suggestion... audiophiles who are baffled by what they believe they are hearing, or objectivists who have a deep certainty that there can't possibly be a difference (based on their technical know-how and the fool-proof nature of their tests)?
I'd agree that auto-suggestion can be an issue on both sides of the argument, but I don't believe it is the full story and it can be argued each way. A listener is unlikely to acknowledge a subtle difference that they don't believe can possibly exist.
ian996 said:
WinstonWolf said:
Those that say they can hear a difference probably have better hearing than those that say you can't
http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html
I absolutely would not claim that this is the case. Rather, I'd suggest that those who claim they can hear a difference are listening for different aspects of reproduction and their approach to listening may be a little different.http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html
From another view-point - those that suggest cable differences are inaudible tend to attribute claims to the contrary to auto-suggestion...ie, this costs so much (or I have spent so much) it MUST be better.
However, who is more likely to be affected by auto-suggestion... audiophiles who are baffled by what they believe they are hearing, or objectivists who have a deep certainty that there can't possibly be a difference (based on their technical know-how and the fool-proof nature of their tests)?
I'd agree that auto-suggestion can be an issue on both sides of the argument, but I don't believe it is the full story and it can be argued each way. A listener is unlikely to acknowledge a subtle difference that they don't believe can possibly exist.
I've had more audiograms than you can shake a stick at, we can't all hear the same frequencies.Bottom line, it's subjective IMO.
B17NNS said:
Interesting stuff. Would you agree with these guidelines (using regular off the shelf oxygen free copper)?
You can't really put it like that. You can compensate for cable losses by turning up the power.With the 46ft of 22AWG into 4Ohms that I listed above, if your volume knob is marked 1 to 10 then to compensate you'll roughly be increasing volume by 1 (eg. 2 to 3).
That's fine, a low levels, but if you're going from 8 to 9 or 9 to 10 then you're going to be pushing the amp.
From 2 to 3 on a 50 W amp could be 1W to 2W (not done the math, this IS wrong), but from 9 to 10 will be 25W to 50W. Clearly the amp is going to start distorting.
So the answer is, you turn up the volume to compensate. Eventually your amp will start distorting. Crappier cables = less volume before amp distortion.
Your amp may well sound different at different amplification levels anyway, if you can hear anything in a blind test, it's likely to be this rather than the cable itself.
B17NNS said:
What is the sorcery held within this plug?
Just a transient suppressor. Low impedance to high frequencies, so it soaks up any noise on the mains. It is possible to inject a signal onto the mains (eg ethernet over mains) so I'll believe that it is possible to suppress one. However, something like ethernet over mains is a very low energy signal, mains spikes from other stuff can be huge and won't be attenuated or could quickly damage this sort of device. They are not intended for this kind of usage.IMHO you'd be far better off plugging your kit into a pass through filter than trying to absorb the energy of mains noise on the mains.
I'm also sceptical that if mains noise that this type of suppressor deals with were to reach a good audio amp that you'd be able to hear it. It should be 80 to 100dB (ish) below the signal.
This is what I use. Good write ups and not going to break the bank.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001UNGJF6/ref...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001UNGJF6/ref...
Howard- said:
gizlaroc said:
But they can make all the difference.
Not saying you need to spend money, but different cables can change the sound slightly.
I tend to like solid core mains cables, they calm down the top end a bit.
I also like Chord Rumor as it does the same, but mains cable is much cheaper.
I'm willing to put money on the fact you wouldn't be able to reliably tell the difference between any speaker cables in a proper blind test. Not saying you need to spend money, but different cables can change the sound slightly.
I tend to like solid core mains cables, they calm down the top end a bit.
I also like Chord Rumor as it does the same, but mains cable is much cheaper.
OP, that cable is absolutely fine.
Why?
Because of the way our brain is wired, when we hear a sound for the first time and then hear it again our brain tries to recreate what we heard the first time.
I'm not going to say which company, but many years back a cable company was doing a double blind test between their cables to a pretty tough audience at one of the HiFi shows, this was back in the early 90s, they were non believers. They went back and forward between two cables and out of the whole room of 30 something people after the first swap many said they thought they did actually hear a difference!
However after a dozen or so times they were asked if they could hear a difference again and the whole room said 'No".
The fact was the cables were never changed, the tracks being played were different, one had two dips and one peak of 6db in certain frequencies.
When you saw the EQ graph and listened again it was obvious they sounded quite different from each other, however, the whole room after a dozen A-B switches said they sounded the same.
Bob Stuart from Meridian has written some decent papers on this over the years as well.
It it says is swapping quickly tells you nothing, not that cables can make a difference at all.
IMHO you need to live with changes to your system to know whether you like what you hear or not.
The differences are often subtle, but it can make all the difference.
As I said though, I tend to use Chord Rumour or 13a solid core mains.
Also, if I played you a system with Nordost Red Dawn and then Belden 1313 I bet you 'would' reliably hear the difference, every time.
For what it is worth I like the Belden and hate the Red Dawn.
Belden retails for about £1.50 a metre, the Red Dawn about £150 a metre.
Thing is, with multipoint EQ, room correction etc. it is all pretty irrelevant these days anyway, and even back then, if you could move your speakers 6" you will get far more difference than cables.
gizlaroc said:
But they can make all the difference.
Not saying you need to spend money, but different cables can change the sound slightly.
I tend to like solid core mains cables, they calm down the top end a bit.
I also like Chord Rumor as it does the same, but mains cable is much cheaper.
You can file this alongside reiki and homeopathy.Not saying you need to spend money, but different cables can change the sound slightly.
I tend to like solid core mains cables, they calm down the top end a bit.
I also like Chord Rumor as it does the same, but mains cable is much cheaper.
In actual blind tests people can’t tell the difference, which matches exactly what the science tells you to expect.
What’s interesting I’d course is the psychology, why do people convince themselves that a nonexisent change exists? Why do they insist, even when it is demonstrated that when blinded they can’t even tell which cables are being used.
As someone who used to be a real scientist, some of the above posts make me want to cry.
The logical fallacies, motivated reasoning, and denial of basic physics is just awful.
You hear exactly the same from people arguing for reiki, free energy, pyramid power and so on.
The best bit is the claim that double blind tests don’t work. You get the same from homeopathists. Their science is so special that anything designed to demonstrate that it’s true just can’t capture the special essence of their claims.
The logical fallacies, motivated reasoning, and denial of basic physics is just awful.
You hear exactly the same from people arguing for reiki, free energy, pyramid power and so on.
The best bit is the claim that double blind tests don’t work. You get the same from homeopathists. Their science is so special that anything designed to demonstrate that it’s true just can’t capture the special essence of their claims.
Just to provide another perspective.
My son has a good ear (also a musician) and unbeknown to him, I had swapped my speaker cables (brands irrelevant here but nothing exotic) and he noticed straight away.
He recognised a change in tone.
It is possible for an amplifier to yield a different frequency response with cables of differing properties, and this can be measured.
Just in the same way interconnects with varying properties can change the tonal properties of the sound.
So why shouldn't we hear it?
My son has a good ear (also a musician) and unbeknown to him, I had swapped my speaker cables (brands irrelevant here but nothing exotic) and he noticed straight away.
He recognised a change in tone.
It is possible for an amplifier to yield a different frequency response with cables of differing properties, and this can be measured.
Just in the same way interconnects with varying properties can change the tonal properties of the sound.
So why shouldn't we hear it?
TonyRPH said:
Just to provide another perspective.
My son has a good ear (also a musician) and unbeknown to him, I had swapped my speaker cables (brands irrelevant here but nothing exotic) and he noticed straight away.
He recognised a change in tone.
It is possible for an amplifier to yield a different frequency response with cables of differing properties, and this can be measured.
Just in the same way interconnects with varying properties can change the tonal properties of the sound.
So why shouldn't we hear it?
As per earlier discussion on AWG, were there any difference in length/thickness/age & oxygen rating of the 2 cables? My son has a good ear (also a musician) and unbeknown to him, I had swapped my speaker cables (brands irrelevant here but nothing exotic) and he noticed straight away.
He recognised a change in tone.
It is possible for an amplifier to yield a different frequency response with cables of differing properties, and this can be measured.
Just in the same way interconnects with varying properties can change the tonal properties of the sound.
So why shouldn't we hear it?
hyphen said:
As per earlier discussion on AWG, were there any difference in length/thickness/age & oxygen rating of the 2 cables?
The whole point if speaker cables is different cables change capacitance, resistance and inductance. You can get something decent without spending a lot of money, you get get something that changes the sound so you think it sounds worse for lots of money.
But what you are saying is as long as you make them all the same they will sound the same?
That is like the guys who say "if you set 5 power amps up to match the limits of the weakest, there will be no difference." or "If all DACs are set up to be flat/correct they will all sound the same" etc. etc.
Edited by gizlaroc on Tuesday 17th October 22:12
TonyRPH said:
Just in the same way interconnects with varying properties can change the tonal properties of the sound.
Its hard to know which properties are important are important though..........https://www.audio-forums.com/threads/the-cable-tes...
Crackie said:
TonyRPH said:
Just in the same way interconnects with varying properties can change the tonal properties of the sound.
Its hard to know which properties are important are important though..........https://www.audio-forums.com/threads/the-cable-tes...
A while back I posted the results of some interconnect tests I did on this very forum, and they all measured the same (unsurprisingly).
But of course these tests are all rather dependent on the source equipment.
Take a passive preamp for example - the frequency response will vary with the setting of the volume control and is highly dependant on the cable properties.
Likewise, I've seen CD players with a high(ish) output impedance (around 1k or so) which again will produce varying results with (some) cables.
This is the same reason some CD players will perform differently with different digital interconnects - it's down to the quality of the interface between player and DAC.
Troubleatmill said:
Just some decent gauge oxygen free copper.
The rest is snake oil.
Have a look at inside your amplifier. Look at all those nice resistors with tin wires.
(my bold above)The rest is snake oil.
Have a look at inside your amplifier. Look at all those nice resistors with tin wires.
I've seen this argument before, and it's really not relevant.
All the high current transfer takes place in the final output stages, and not "those nice resistors with tin wires" (which only handle the voltage gain).
Most amplifiers have some fairly beefy output transistors with thick conductors, and even the emitter resistors tend to have fairly stout legs quite capable of handling several amps.
However there are other factors at play - the output impedance of the amplifier and the amount of negative feedback will all determine how much the amplifier will interact with (certain, but not all) types of cable, not forgetting the very non linear load presented by the speaker crossover.
As someone said above - a decent enough gauge cable will usually negate most of these properties.
Finally, let us not forget class d (or class t) amplifier with large inductors in the output path - they definitely interact with most cables in some way or another, changing the tonal properties of the sound.
Edited by TonyRPH on Wednesday 18th October 09:25
gizlaroc said:
The whole point if speaker cables is different cables change capacitance, resistance and inductance.
You are both right and wrong with that.Yes, the capacitance and inductance will vary between different cables. However this difference is utterly insignificant in the audio band. The loading on your amp won't change. The transmission of audio to your speaker won't change.
As I've already stated, the difference in resistance between two cables will have a significant effect and this may mean you have to move the volume dial to keep the volume the same. Moving the volume dial means changing your amplifier gain and that will alter the system response far more then the teeny tiny changes is cable response.
There exists a tool called a Vector Network Analyser. It is capable of measuring frequency response and phase shift from DC to several GHz. If you connect one port to the amp end of your speaker cable and the other to the speaker end (with speaker attached) you can precisely measure any differences between cables.
The fact that cable manufacturers do not use this test to provide quantitative evidence of how much better their cable is than mains wire should anyone with half a braincell everything they need to know about the subject.
It's all snake oil and woo. I'm reminded of the old line about alternative medicine Q: "What do you call alternative medicine that works?" A:"Medicine."
I fully appreciate that I won't win this argument, it's been raging for years. However it is interesting to notice that all the people who think expensive cables make a difference are either a/ not educated experts in that field of electronics or b/ selling expensive cables!
mikeveal said:
Good stuff
Mike, I completely agree with you, however there are cases out there which demonstrate that cables do change the sound.The early Naim amps are a classic example of this - they were designed to work with a specific cable, and can sound 'wrong' (or even oscillate badly) if presented with the "wrong" type of cable.
Some valve amps also demonstrate differing tonal qualities with certain (speaker) cables.
For me, the problem lies in the 'snake oil' methods used by cable vendors to illustrate the viability of their products.
My general mantra is that it's not the cable but the devices being connected by said cable that are responsible for any changes in tonal qualities.
Finally, as far back as 1978, before cables really came to the fore, I remember experimenting with various cable types and upon trying solid core mains cable (would have been 2.5mm I think - the type used for 13A sockets) I noticed that the midrange became quite prominent when compared to stranded cable of a similar gauge.
Unfortunately, I had no test equipment to speak of in those days, and hence no way to measure and verify what I was hearing.
If you can't hear a difference during a blind test then I'd suggest there is no difference.
It's a bit like when Gordon Ramsay had Cliff Richard do a blind tasting of his own branded wine versus supermarket plonk.
Would be interesting to see if any WhatHifi types could identify the different equipment in operation under blind testing conditions. I highly doubt it. Wouldn't sit well with the advertisers
It's a bit like when Gordon Ramsay had Cliff Richard do a blind tasting of his own branded wine versus supermarket plonk.
Would be interesting to see if any WhatHifi types could identify the different equipment in operation under blind testing conditions. I highly doubt it. Wouldn't sit well with the advertisers
Edited by benz0 on Wednesday 18th October 10:54
Gassing Station | Home Cinema & Hi-Fi | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff