Building some speakers - Anyone done it?
Discussion
Nerdherder said:
If you really want to roll your own winISD is your friend http://www.linearteam.org/
My surrounds are basically high end studio monitor designs where I've played with dimensions to make them fit in our room, not hidden but also not intrusively in sight.
The most fun I've had with cinema sound has been adding killer (sub) bass though, with a tapped horn.
Inspired by this project:
http://wp.volvotreter.de/projects/th-2/the-tangban...
What about stuff below 30Hz? My surrounds are basically high end studio monitor designs where I've played with dimensions to make them fit in our room, not hidden but also not intrusively in sight.
The most fun I've had with cinema sound has been adding killer (sub) bass though, with a tapped horn.
Inspired by this project:
http://wp.volvotreter.de/projects/th-2/the-tangban...
Edited by Nerdherder on Friday 11th October 08:44
lufbramatt said:
When I used to work for Geberit they did a HDPE piping system that was filled with mica to make the pipes really heavy to reduce noise transmission, called "Silent DB20". I always thought it would work well for this kind of speaker design, never got round to trying it before I got made redundant after not wanting to relocate!
Might be worth investigating though, it was a quality product.
Thanks lufbramatt, that is an interesting product. In the 90s and 2000s I worked for a company that developed a polypropylene compound which was also loaded with a mica along with chalk and talc to damp resonances. Several of the major UK Hi-Fi brands were using the material at the that time. It was stiff with very good damping.......so several driver manufacturers asked us to injection mould speakers cones for them. Each customer specified a slightly different blend of filler ratio dependant upon what properties they felt offered the best performance compromise. Harbeth are now doing something very similar with their Radial cones, with good results. Bang and Olufsen were using drivers with injection moulded, mica loaded drivers in the mid 90s. Might be worth investigating though, it was a quality product.
RSTurboPaul said:
Nerdherder said:
If you really want to roll your own winISD is your friend http://www.linearteam.org/
My surrounds are basically high end studio monitor designs where I've played with dimensions to make them fit in our room, not hidden but also not intrusively in sight.
The most fun I've had with cinema sound has been adding killer (sub) bass though, with a tapped horn.
Inspired by this project:
http://wp.volvotreter.de/projects/th-2/the-tangban...
What about stuff below 30Hz? My surrounds are basically high end studio monitor designs where I've played with dimensions to make them fit in our room, not hidden but also not intrusively in sight.
The most fun I've had with cinema sound has been adding killer (sub) bass though, with a tapped horn.
Inspired by this project:
http://wp.volvotreter.de/projects/th-2/the-tangban...
Edited by Nerdherder on Friday 11th October 08:44
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/eminent-tec...
There is a great piece of freeware, called HornResponse, which produces very accurate simulations. I've made a couple subs using it and the measured results were less than 2db from the sim. It has an option to design tapped horns.
Here's a tutorial https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-su...
Crackie said:
RSTurboPaul said:
Nerdherder said:
If you really want to roll your own winISD is your friend http://www.linearteam.org/
My surrounds are basically high end studio monitor designs where I've played with dimensions to make them fit in our room, not hidden but also not intrusively in sight.
The most fun I've had with cinema sound has been adding killer (sub) bass though, with a tapped horn.
Inspired by this project:
http://wp.volvotreter.de/projects/th-2/the-tangban...
What about stuff below 30Hz? My surrounds are basically high end studio monitor designs where I've played with dimensions to make them fit in our room, not hidden but also not intrusively in sight.
The most fun I've had with cinema sound has been adding killer (sub) bass though, with a tapped horn.
Inspired by this project:
http://wp.volvotreter.de/projects/th-2/the-tangban...
Edited by Nerdherder on Friday 11th October 08:44
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/eminent-tec...
There is a great piece of freeware, called HornResponse, which produces very accurate simulations. I've made a couple subs using it and the measured results were less than 2db from the sim. It has an option to design tapped horns.
Here's a tutorial https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-su...
I've not tried HR, it seems to be pretty complex from what I can make out. I found the main issue is that the effects from the room / placement of the sub can be modelled but real life can be a bit different, lol, and peak/null issues can be difficult to overcome if one only has certain locations available for subs/seating!
I found the stuff under 30Hz does make a perceptible difference, but it does need space and power to achieve.
Crackie said:
There are several companies that have used waveguides and diffusers to improve directivity over the years...the goal being to energise the room in the same way that musical instruments do. Bang and Olufsen and Duevel https://www.duevel.com/ spring to mind but there are many more.
I've not quite finished the speakers yet because I've not had time to work out the way to mount the BMR driver above the main conventional driver. There's plenty of Blu tack and tape around at the moment...…….the sound is great though; good enough for me to experiment with going omni with the active system I have in the lounge.
I have a question for you, would you consider taking the active route on these? A miniDSP 2x4 https://cpc.farnell.com/mini-dsp/mdsp-24/digital-s... and one of these would work well https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WONDOM-4-X-100-Watt-6-O...
It would cost about £150 more than the passive version but you would be able to optimise the crossover, correct the driver responses, protect the bass driver from receiving too much bass at high volumes, level match both drivers perfectly and even correct your room's response.
They're just entry level Tannoy MX3s that I've had for 20+ years, filled them with sand as recommended and they're fairly sturdy/as stable as floorstanders can be - they managed to knock both of them over within the space of five minutes a few months ago - couldn't believe it as they've never been knocked over in all that time and they both managed to do one each in quick succession ffs. Then the youngest took a small wooden pole from his stacking set and stuck it right through one of the dust covers of my centre speaker - thankfully he never damaged the driver and I was able to reshape/glue the dust cover back on with no I'll effects. And the tweeters regularly get pushed in too - they're silk and I keep a bit of tape on the back of one for getting them back out easily, thought he was getting over this finally as we'd been about two weeks since the last effort, nope, he done two the other day!
I'm definitely a fan of room correction and the difference it makes to even old cheap speakers like mine - picked up a cheap Anthem MRX 500 just after Christmas fully expecting to buy better speakers to go with it, but the ARC has made a huge difference to them/the room, but after reading through your previous link to Humble Home Audio has gotten me thinking about taking a different route for replacing the Tannoys. Someone put up a WTB on AVF the other day looking for good quality floorstanders and a centre speaker and got offered some older PMCs floorstanders and centre for £300! I'm now thinking of something like that with upgraded crossovers from the likes of Humble instead of just buying something more modern/mass produced.
Edited by stevoknevo on Friday 28th February 15:04
stevoknevo said:
Crackie said:
There are several companies that have used waveguides and diffusers to improve directivity over the years...the goal being to energise the room in the same way that musical instruments do. Bang and Olufsen and Duevel https://www.duevel.com/ spring to mind but there are many more.
I've not quite finished the speakers yet because I've not had time to work out the way to mount the BMR driver above the main conventional driver. There's plenty of Blu tack and tape around at the moment...…….the sound is great though; good enough for me to experiment with going omni with the active system I have in the lounge.
I have a question for you, would you consider taking the active route on these? A miniDSP 2x4 https://cpc.farnell.com/mini-dsp/mdsp-24/digital-s... and one of these would work well https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WONDOM-4-X-100-Watt-6-O...
It would cost about £150 more than the passive version but you would be able to optimise the crossover, correct the driver responses, protect the bass driver from receiving too much bass at high volumes, level match both drivers perfectly and even correct your room's response.
They're just entry level Tannoy MX3s that I've had for 20+ years, filled them with sand as recommended and they're fairly sturdy/as stable as floorstanders can be - they managed to knock both of them over within the space of five minutes a few months ago - couldn't believe it as they've never been knocked over in all that time and they both managed to do one each in quick succession ffs. Then the youngest took a small wooden pole from his stacking set and stuck it right through one of the dust covers of my centre speaker - thankfully he never damaged the driver and I was able to reshape/glue the dust cover back on with no I'll effects. And the tweeters regularly get pushed in too - they're silk and I keep a bit of tape on the back of one for getting them back out easily, thought he was getting over this finally as we'd been about two weeks since the last effort, nope, he done two the other day!
I'm definitely a fan of room correction and the difference it makes to even old cheap speakers like mine - picked up a cheap Anthem MRX 500 just after Christmas fully expecting to buy better speakers to go with it, but the ARC has made a huge difference to them/the room, but after reading through your previous link to Humble Home Audio has gotten me thinking about taking a different route for replacing the Tannoys. Someone put up a WTB on AVF the other day looking for good quality floorstanders and a centre speaker and got offered some older PMCs floorstanders and centre for £300! I'm now thinking of something like that with upgraded crossovers from the likes of Humble instead of just buying something more modern/mass produced.
Edited by stevoknevo on Friday 28th February 15:04
Different sound to my Castle Severn IIs.
Such a great cheap hobby. I've thought about building my own speakers using car speakers (something good like MB Quart or Rainbow... Rockford Fosgate etc).
Interesting reading about using different woods in the build. Maybe some concrete in the base? Finished in a nice gloss red as I like bold.
heisthegaffer said:
I have a pair of MX3s and I really like the sound. I got them for a bargain price of 40 quid.
Different sound to my Castle Severn IIs.
Such a great cheap hobby. I've thought about building my own speakers using car speakers (something good like MB Quart or Rainbow... Rockford Fosgate etc).
Interesting reading about using different woods in the build. Maybe some concrete in the base? Finished in a nice gloss red as I like bold.
They're very good for the money, £40 is a bargain - the imaging is very good indeed and a few people have said to me the centre speaker makes a difference only for me to tell them it's not in use in stereo! I bought mine in the late 90's from my mate's Mum's catalogue for £230 - only since I bought the Anthem recently did I realise I had them set up incorrectly through my old Denon AVR, I had them set as large when they should have been small, and now I know why listening to music was always fatiguing, doh, only took 10+ years to figure that out! Different sound to my Castle Severn IIs.
Such a great cheap hobby. I've thought about building my own speakers using car speakers (something good like MB Quart or Rainbow... Rockford Fosgate etc).
Interesting reading about using different woods in the build. Maybe some concrete in the base? Finished in a nice gloss red as I like bold.
If you haven't already then definitely mass load them with kiln dried sand or similar, makes a big difference.
stevoknevo said:
heisthegaffer said:
I have a pair of MX3s and I really like the sound. I got them for a bargain price of 40 quid.
Different sound to my Castle Severn IIs.
Such a great cheap hobby. I've thought about building my own speakers using car speakers (something good like MB Quart or Rainbow... Rockford Fosgate etc).
Interesting reading about using different woods in the build. Maybe some concrete in the base? Finished in a nice gloss red as I like bold.
They're very good for the money, £40 is a bargain - the imaging is very good indeed and a few people have said to me the centre speaker makes a difference only for me to tell them it's not in use in stereo! I bought mine in the late 90's from my mate's Mum's catalogue for £230 - only since I bought the Anthem recently did I realise I had them set up incorrectly through my old Denon AVR, I had them set as large when they should have been small, and now I know why listening to music was always fatiguing, doh, only took 10+ years to figure that out! Different sound to my Castle Severn IIs.
Such a great cheap hobby. I've thought about building my own speakers using car speakers (something good like MB Quart or Rainbow... Rockford Fosgate etc).
Interesting reading about using different woods in the build. Maybe some concrete in the base? Finished in a nice gloss red as I like bold.
If you haven't already then definitely mass load them with kiln dried sand or similar, makes a big difference.
I've actually stopped using my sub with them but turned the bass of my AVR up and they are doing a good job when watching movies.
paulrockliffe said:
So glad I started this thread!
More pics of the plastic pipe speakers please!
Will do........they are far from the finished article at the moment but the development pics will give a good idea of what the finished speaker will look like. Every speaker I've worked on has looked like a dogs dinner during the development phase; plenty of temporary fixtures are used for assembling and stripping down whilst things like the port length and / or the internal wadding is optimised. I still haven't found time to work out the best way to fix the BMR in position to 'hover' just above the upwards firing bass/mid driver.More pics of the plastic pipe speakers please!
In the short term, I'm hatching a plot to use some wooden ice lolly sticks
, positioned vertically like rugby goalposts, with the BMR held between them by blu-tack. This will be representative for finalising things ( listening & measurements ), I'll sort out something a little less Heath Robinson for the final spec.AW111 said:
The final speaker fixture sounds like a nice job for a 3d printer.
Was thinking the very same but I'm using some very early BMR drivers on mine; they use a square frame and have small, but powerful, neodymium magnets too. Their small magnets allow a relatively high sound output to the rear as well as forwards ( good for omni dispersion )These neo magnets do have their benefits but they are also more expensive than the conventional ferrite ones; my concern is that I'm using drivers that I had kicking around at home rather than purchasing the BMR units commercially available now; the bass/mid units I'm using also have a 'clever' surround treatment which helps blend the transition from rigid Kevlar cone to their soft rubber surround. This means they have a very well damped and smooth performance at the top end and I can use them without a crossover. One of the major advantages of using a driver that points upwards is that the main driver's top end behaviour isn't really heard at the listening position...……..or anywhere else in the room. The only place it might be heard is if you're stood up AND you're right next to the speaker.
Once the spit and string version is working optimally and I can then put up of some measurement results; this might help convince others that building some is worthwhile.
Edited by Crackie on Monday 2nd March 09:24
Finally got round to taking some impedance measurements and pics of the development units...….apologies for taking so long.
Sealed enclosure. The yellow curve has no damping wadding so you can see the multiple associated, high Q, resonances reflected in the impedance trace. The green curve is the same enclosure but with wadding; the wadding slows the speed of sound in the cabinet so the driver 'sees' a bigger air volume. The resonant peaks are still there but heavily damped and slightly lower in frequency. The lower frequency is an effect of the speed of sound change and the driver thinking its in a bigger cabinet.
The graph shows the ported version of the pipe enclosure with minimal wadding on the yellow curve and with my preferred wadding fill on the green curve. It is possible to suppress the resonances with a high ratio of wadding but this, to my ears, kills the port function too and results in very little bass.
Sealed enclosure. The yellow curve has no damping wadding so you can see the multiple associated, high Q, resonances reflected in the impedance trace. The green curve is the same enclosure but with wadding; the wadding slows the speed of sound in the cabinet so the driver 'sees' a bigger air volume. The resonant peaks are still there but heavily damped and slightly lower in frequency. The lower frequency is an effect of the speed of sound change and the driver thinking its in a bigger cabinet.
The graph shows the ported version of the pipe enclosure with minimal wadding on the yellow curve and with my preferred wadding fill on the green curve. It is possible to suppress the resonances with a high ratio of wadding but this, to my ears, kills the port function too and results in very little bass.
Edited by Crackie on Sunday 22 March 21:36
paul.deitch said:
This thread is interesting. I haven't built any but I want to rebuild some. Recommend me a good place to purchase replacement capacitors please.
https://willys-hifi.com/collections/electrolytic-capacitors-non-polarisedhttps://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/alcap-claritycap...
https://iplacoustics.co.uk/ipl_crossover_component...
Crackie said:
paul.deitch said:
This thread is interesting. I haven't built any but I want to rebuild some. Recommend me a good place to purchase replacement capacitors please.
https://willys-hifi.com/collections/electrolytic-capacitors-non-polarisedhttps://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/alcap-claritycap...
https://iplacoustics.co.uk/ipl_crossover_component...
Not sure what type of surround the bass drivers use? Foam surrounds can deteriorate and become friable after long term exposure to UV light. Over time, the foam suspensions of larger ( heavier coned ) drivers can also sag due to plain old gravity. A trick is to rotate the bass drivers through 180 degrees; this should help mitigate / counteract any issues previously caused.
Good luck.
Edited by Crackie on Thursday 2nd April 08:14
Thread resurrection !!
This might be of interest to a few PHers who might enjoy a speaker building project to keep them, and their grey cells, busy whilst 'confined' to home.
Is it possible to build a very high quality pair of speakers if a single full range driver is used and the cabinet is well engineered?? Eclipse is one company that specialises in these single driver designs https://www.coolgales.com/product/eclipse-td712z-m... Another example was the Eikos FR-1 and there have been several designs which use Lowther, Fostex and a few lesser known full range drivers.
These designs focus on the removing the cabinet's negative contribution from the overall sound output and having no crossover components in the signal path. The Eclipse uses a very strong and stiff metal enclosure which is also carefully shaped to improve dispersion and reduce diffraction. The Eikos went down a very different route and made the cabinet so light that it almost wasn't there.........it stored very little energy and consequently had little impact on the overall sound.
So............is it possible to make something similar which approaches the performance of the Eclipses (using the single driver, crossoverless and low cabinet colouration goals) but for sensible money ie. £175 a pair rather than the £7000 a pair for the Eclipses.
The driver is going to be this SEAS unit http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&am...
restige-midranges&Itemid=463 This is the driver chosen by Seigfried Linkwitz to use on his 'legendary' reference LX521 design.
For the cabinet we need something that's very stiff, without parallel walls, very low mass, good damping, and low cost. The plan is to develop the cabinet using off the shelf easily available low cost parts rather than expect people to become speaker cabinet builders
Now, don't laugh, this will form the main part of the enclosure https://www.amazon.co.uk/woodluv-Bamboo-Salad-Serv...
This will be the rear of the enclosure https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B074J8JDH4/ref...
This will be damping the inside of the bamboo bowls https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00133ZGW0/ref...
What we'll end up with is a world class driver, which is more sensitive (louder) than the Eclipse unit, with higher power handling too. The enclosure isn't going to be a high end die cast affair like the Eclipse design but will be a very lightweight, stiff, well damped, non resonant structure without parallel internal surfaces.
If any PHers are interested I'll post up pics of the bass response simulations.............
Somewhere, stored away somewhere, I'm pretty sure I have a copy of the Eikos FR-1 review. Will try and find the test and post that up too.
At this stage the part I haven't worked out yet is the baffle design...........this is probably going to be the only part where some fabrication is needed. The optimum is to have a smooth blend from the curved side of the main 'bowl' shape to the flat surface of the front baffle. Think of the Eclipse shape or the mid range enclosure of B&W's 800 series.
This might be of interest to a few PHers who might enjoy a speaker building project to keep them, and their grey cells, busy whilst 'confined' to home.
Is it possible to build a very high quality pair of speakers if a single full range driver is used and the cabinet is well engineered?? Eclipse is one company that specialises in these single driver designs https://www.coolgales.com/product/eclipse-td712z-m... Another example was the Eikos FR-1 and there have been several designs which use Lowther, Fostex and a few lesser known full range drivers.
These designs focus on the removing the cabinet's negative contribution from the overall sound output and having no crossover components in the signal path. The Eclipse uses a very strong and stiff metal enclosure which is also carefully shaped to improve dispersion and reduce diffraction. The Eikos went down a very different route and made the cabinet so light that it almost wasn't there.........it stored very little energy and consequently had little impact on the overall sound.
So............is it possible to make something similar which approaches the performance of the Eclipses (using the single driver, crossoverless and low cabinet colouration goals) but for sensible money ie. £175 a pair rather than the £7000 a pair for the Eclipses.
The driver is going to be this SEAS unit http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&am...
restige-midranges&Itemid=463 This is the driver chosen by Seigfried Linkwitz to use on his 'legendary' reference LX521 design. For the cabinet we need something that's very stiff, without parallel walls, very low mass, good damping, and low cost. The plan is to develop the cabinet using off the shelf easily available low cost parts rather than expect people to become speaker cabinet builders
Now, don't laugh, this will form the main part of the enclosure https://www.amazon.co.uk/woodluv-Bamboo-Salad-Serv...
This will be the rear of the enclosure https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B074J8JDH4/ref...
This will be damping the inside of the bamboo bowls https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00133ZGW0/ref...
What we'll end up with is a world class driver, which is more sensitive (louder) than the Eclipse unit, with higher power handling too. The enclosure isn't going to be a high end die cast affair like the Eclipse design but will be a very lightweight, stiff, well damped, non resonant structure without parallel internal surfaces.
If any PHers are interested I'll post up pics of the bass response simulations.............
Somewhere, stored away somewhere, I'm pretty sure I have a copy of the Eikos FR-1 review. Will try and find the test and post that up too.
At this stage the part I haven't worked out yet is the baffle design...........this is probably going to be the only part where some fabrication is needed. The optimum is to have a smooth blend from the curved side of the main 'bowl' shape to the flat surface of the front baffle. Think of the Eclipse shape or the mid range enclosure of B&W's 800 series.
Edited by Crackie on Saturday 30th January 09:22
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