Power cables (for amp)

[thebraketester]

Blind tested?

I am sure this thread is a wind up.....

[urquattroGus]

The same reason cases of components are so heavily damped?

[LimSlip]

Tony1963 said:

TonyRPH said:

Microphony? In a mains cable? Are you serious????!!

Don’t ask me, I’m not a scientist, acoustic engineer, or hifi salesman!

Clearly. How does one meter of supposedly "non-microphonic" power cable somehow null the effect of all that awful "microphonic" T&E in the ceiling and wall cavities all over the house that is connected to the same fuse box?

Microphonics in cables come from the triboelectric and capacitive effect (variation in distance between conductors with DC potential, like a condenser microphone), both of which have high source impedances. When connected to a very low impedance circuit, such as your 240v outlet the effects will be completely swamped by other noise generators such as dimmers, switch mode supplies, energy saving lamps etc. Microphonic cables are a problem in high impedance circuits where cables are moved significantly (e.g. microphone/guitar line level cables) rather than short range low frequency power distribution.

If your source or amplifier clearly reproduces the microvolt level signal that such terrible cable might impose on the mains, why are you not more concerned about the appalling power supply rejection of said source/amp?

Tony1963 said:

However, too many people who are healthily cynical about all this cable bumf have said that, despite everything they ‘know’, once they’ve put the cable/s in their system, there was an improvement. And that’s the proof of the pudding, every single time.

As already mentioned several times people will hear what they want to hear, especially after shelling out large sums of money. Double blind testing is to audiophiles what kryptonite is to superman.

[Gary C]

Our generator makes electricity at 50hz, but you should see some of the harmonics it can generate. The whole system can generate a whole host of frequencies and noise that the PSU must effectively remove.

A quality PSU must be the answer, not £500 cables & plugs.

I did like that unit that used two lead acid batteries to produce a clean DC supply which made the PSU simpler.

[Tony1963]

“ As already mentioned several times people will hear what they want to hear, especially after shelling out large sums of money. Double blind testing is to audiophiles what kryptonite is to superman.”

I’ll say it again. A cynical person is loaned a mains cable. He laughs. Hasn’t bought it, can’t see the point of exotic cables, is a highly qualified engineer, but with an open mind he takes it.

But no. All of you form this idea that all my friends are rich idiots.

Still. Your loss.

[deckster]

Tony1963 said:

I’ll say it again. A cynical person is loaned a mains cable. He laughs. Hasn’t bought it, can’t see the point of exotic cables, is a highly qualified engineer, but with an open mind he takes it.

Has he done double-blind back-to-back testing?

Can he hear a difference when you swap out a cable without him knowing?

Can he hear a difference when you tell him he's listening to an expensive cable, but in fact you've not changed anything at all?

[Tony1963]

deckster said:

Has he done double-blind back-to-back testing?

Can he hear a difference when you swap out a cable without him knowing?

Can he hear a difference when you tell him he's listening to an expensive cable, but in fact you've not changed anything at all?

And so it goes on and on.

Change your speakers, declare an improvement, and everyone agrees. No requirement for any testing at all. Yay, your £2k speakers are better than your £500 speakers. Woooo.

Swap a £20 kettle lead for a £550 kettle lead, and absolutely no way on this earth can you possibly hear a difference. My science says you can’t. So there.

[ATG]

Tony1963 said:

deckster said:

Has he done double-blind back-to-back testing?

Can he hear a difference when you swap out a cable without him knowing?

Can he hear a difference when you tell him he's listening to an expensive cable, but in fact you've not changed anything at all?

And so it goes on and on.

Change your speakers, declare an improvement, and everyone agrees. No requirement for any testing at all. Yay, your £2k speakers are better than your £500 speakers. Woooo.

Swap a £20 kettle lead for a £550 kettle lead, and absolutely no way on this earth can you possibly hear a difference. My science says you can’t. So there.

Replacing a speaker with a different model is like changing the turbocharger you're using in your car. Changing the power cable is like changing the car's filler cap. One will change how your car performs substantially, the other won't make any difference, and if someone claims that changing the filler cap does change the car's performance then it's hardly unreasonable for people to be skeptical (in the scientific sense) and ask what evidence you have.

[deckster]

Tony1963 said:

deckster said:

Has he done double-blind back-to-back testing?

Can he hear a difference when you swap out a cable without him knowing?

Can he hear a difference when you tell him he's listening to an expensive cable, but in fact you've not changed anything at all?

And so it goes on and on.

Change your speakers, declare an improvement, and everyone agrees. No requirement for any testing at all. Yay, your £2k speakers are better than your £500 speakers. Woooo.

Swap a £20 kettle lead for a £550 kettle lead, and absolutely no way on this earth can you possibly hear a difference. My science says you can’t. So there.

So, that's "No, no, and no" then?

[Tony1963]

ATG said:

Replacing a speaker with a different model is like changing the turbocharger you're using in your car. Changing the power cable is like changing the car's filler cap. One will change how your car performs substantially, the other won't make any difference, and if someone claims that changing the filler cap does change the car's performance then it's hardly unreasonable for people to be skeptical (in the scientific sense) and ask what evidence you have.

This is an Internet forum. Even if I could produce absolute proof, it would still require others to try it out and see if they can firstly hear a difference, and secondly decide whether the difference is worth the cost.

I couldn’t care less if nobody here ‘believes’ or not. What surprises me is the lack of willingness to accept that there might be a difference, and it might just be worth a (free) demo at home.

That’s blinkered.

[ATG]

Tony1963 said:

ATG said:

Replacing a speaker with a different model is like changing the turbocharger you're using in your car. Changing the power cable is like changing the car's filler cap. One will change how your car performs substantially, the other won't make any difference, and if someone claims that changing the filler cap does change the car's performance then it's hardly unreasonable for people to be skeptical (in the scientific sense) and ask what evidence you have.

This is an Internet forum. Even if I could produce absolute proof, it would still require others to try it out and see if they can firstly hear a difference, and secondly decide whether the difference is worth the cost.

I couldn’t care less if nobody here ‘believes’ or not. What surprises me is the lack of willingness to accept that there might be a difference, and it might just be worth a (free) demo at home.

That’s blinkered.

How much credence do you give to the Flat Earthists or those who think the Moon landings were faked? They might be right, but I rate it pretty bloody unlikely and I think that's reasonable. Your theory of power cables is up there alongside Flat Earth. If someone has little grasp of how the electronics in a hifi work, then I can see how that might not be obvious.

[legzr1]

LimSlip said:

As already mentioned several times people will hear what they want to hear, especially after shelling out large sums of money. Double blind testing is to audiophiles what kryptonite is to superman.

Surely that works both ways?

Someone of the opinion that it’s impossible that differences actually exist, never mind being detectable to the ear/measuring equipment are clearly going to be blind to any differences.

Even less likely someone who takes the time to post an opinion on a sub section of a motoring forum.

Negative bias?

Some pages back I took the opportunity to trial a few power leads. My system is fairly revealing and I could not detect a difference (save the absolute pain in the arse swapping everything over several times). My ears, my room, my source - no difference to my ears. Does that mean they don’t exist?

[deckster]

legzr1 said:

Some pages back I took the opportunity to trial a few power leads. My system is fairly revealing and I could not detect a difference (save the absolute pain in the arse swapping everything over several times). My ears, my room, my source - no difference to my ears. Does that mean they don’t exist?

Of course it is hard to prove a negative (Bertrand Russell's teapot springs to mind). But when we are talking about whether it's worth spending £500 on a power cable, if the best argument is one that relies on obscure philosophical constructs then we can be pretty sure the answer is "hell no".

[Tony1963]

ATG said:

How much credence do you give to the Flat Earthists or those who think the Moon landings were faked? They might be right, but I rate it pretty bloody unlikely and I think that's reasonable. Your theory of power cables is up there alongside Flat Earth. If someone has little grasp of how the electronics in a hifi work, then I can see how that might not be obvious.

I don’t remember posting any theory at all.

[legzr1]

deckster said:

Of course it is hard to prove a negative (Bertrand Russell's teapot springs to mind). But when we are talking about whether it's worth spending £500 on a power cable, if the best argument is one that relies on obscure philosophical constructs then we can be pretty sure the answer is "hell no".

I don’t recall asking anyone to prove a negative.
I thought what I posted was pretty clear - negative bias, as in “It can’t possibly make a difference” must have a similar effect to “Ooo, look, 3” think with coloured braiding, this must sound better”.

You mentioned philosophical constructs, no one has offered that as a reason to buy a power cable.

I tried, I listened at length, I found no difference.

You?

[ATG]

Bias is indeed bias. Good thing about a double blind test is that the subject doesn't need to know what's being tested so the "it can't possibly work" bias is avoided.

[inabox]

Science deniers and cultists ought to be denied all the benefits science has brought society and should be dumped on an island with their fancy kettle leads and flat earth theories to keep them busy imo.

Intelligent and/or wealthy people are not exempt from being extremely stupid at times.

[TonyRPH]

I note that you don't often see people raving about how xyz mains cable improved the picture on their television.

Equally, people don't seem to spend ££££ on mains regeneration for their A/V systems either.

This is probably because seeing is believing, and we are apparently more likely to trust our eyes than our ears.

Back in the days when DVD players were very popular, you didn't have people drawing around their discs with green pens to "improve the picture".

Ironically, the data density on a DVD (and BluRay especially) is so much higher than a CD - so if anything those formats would need 'help' in ensuring accurate reads.

But audio bullst is an easy sell. Video bullst apparently is not.

[Tony1963]

Blimey. Some extremists here.


And all I’ve said is give it a go. For free.


So what does that make those that refuse? What will they think when someone produces a peer reviewed paper showing that it’s proven and repeatable?

Oh. Hang on. We already know everything in physics, so that’s not possible. I forgot about that. The ones being banished to a desert island should be the blinkered ones who won’t even give something completely harmless a go. For free.

[Crackie]

TonyRPH said:

I note that you don't often see people raving about how xyz mains cable improved the picture on their television.

Equally, people don't seem to spend ££££ on mains regeneration for their A/V systems either.

This is probably because seeing is believing, and we are apparently more likely to trust our eyes than our ears.

Back in the days when DVD players were very popular, you didn't have people drawing around their discs with green pens to "improve the picture".

Ironically, the data density on a DVD (and BluRay especially) is so much higher than a CD - so if anything those formats would need 'help' in ensuring accurate reads.

But audio bullst is an easy sell. Video bullst apparently is not.

Television's video circuits have had propriety active noise reduction processing for decades to specifically reduce transient noise artefacts. Ironically, it was developed to reduce the effects from mains borne interference generated by things like traffic and electric motor commutators. Panasonic's is inventively called P-NR ( Picture Noise Reduction )