Power cables (for amp)

[TonyRPH]

Crackie said:

Television's video circuits have had propriety active noise reduction processing for decades to specifically reduce transient noise artefacts. Ironically, it was developed to reduce the effects from mains borne interference generated by things like traffic and electric motor commutators. Panasonic's is inventively called P-NR ( Picture Noise Reduction )

Actually, that noise reduction is nothing to do with removing mains borne interference.

It's for reducing artefacts in MPEG streams...

[Crackie]

Tony1963 said:

Blimey. Some extremists here.


And all I’ve said is give it a go. For free.


So what does that make those that refuse? What will they think when someone produces a peer reviewed paper showing that it’s proven and repeatable?

Oh. Hang on. We already know everything in physics, so that’s not possible. I forgot about that. The ones being banished to a desert island should be the blinkered ones who won’t even give something completely harmless a go. For free.

Opposing views tend to become pretty polarised after a while.

Most on here are pretty pragmatic...……...particularly those with a reasonable understanding of what is going on in a mains cable, in mains conditioners and what is happening in a mains regenerator. They tend to be lumped together but imho 'active' mains regenerators should not be dismissed as the same 'snake oil' as some the passive devices. They are radically different.

I have several different Hi-Fi systems in use at home ( 8 at the last count ). 3 of them use active speakers, 4 use open baffle speakers, all of them are pretty revealing and fed with decent sources like Wadia CD players. I've tried different cables ( IC, speaker cables & mains ) in the better systems and none have made an improvement. I stopped experimenting with different cables 20 years ago.

However, I'm pretty confident that I'm not a luddite and appreciate why mains regeneration might make a whorthwhile improvement.

I think Martin Colloms' piece below is very interesting on the subject. He is sceptical, bordering on condemning, about the simple mains treatment and mains cable products; he is at pains to point out that the they've invariably made his system sound worse rather than better. The Colloms article is the second one down following the one by Stereophile.

The article might also be interesting for Tony too because it does give a fairly comprehensive description about how the regenerator is operating.

http://www.bm.rs/Oglasi/PS%20Audio%20Power%20Plant...

Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 3rd March 10:34

[TonyRPH]

Crackie said:

<snip>

I think Martin Colloms' piece below is very interesting on the subject. He is sceptical, bordering on condemning, about the simple mains treatment and mains cable products; he is at pains to point out that the they've invariably made his system sound worse rather than better. The Colloms article is the second one down following the one by Stereophile.

The article might also be interesting for Tony too because it does give a fairly comprehensive description about how the regenerator is operating.

http://www.bm.rs/Oglasi/PS%20Audio%20Power%20Plant...

Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 3rd March 10:34

I nearly choked on my coffee when Martin Colloms, in his article stated "my system is supplied by two dedicated spurs wired with 60A wideband cable."

"wideband" (mains) cable?? - oh dear....

And on the main regenerator the review states: "Since the incoming noise and distortion represents only a few percent of the voltage and power, only a few watts is required to address them, hence the small size and efficiency (only 16W idling) of the Class G correction amplifier.

Surely not the "Class G" that audio reviewers slated back in the 80's when NAD and Hitachi tried it...? (it was slated due to commutation effects)

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot take that review seriously.

That there is some distortion on the mains I don't dispute. However, I do dispute that said distortion causes any amplifier (or other HiFi item) any issue whatsoever (within reason - but then if the distortion is that bad, the effects will manifest themselves in other ways).

Additionally, devices with switch mode power supplies will offer even more immunity to any of these effects.

I'm beginning to feel like I'm being trolled here lol.

[Crackie]

TonyRPH said:

I nearly choked on my coffee when Martin Colloms, in his article stated "my system is supplied by two dedicated spurs wired with 60A wideband cable."

"wideband" (mains) cable?? - oh dear....

And on the main regenerator the review states: "Since the incoming noise and distortion represents only a few percent of the voltage and power, only a few watts is required to address them, hence the small size and efficiency (only 16W idling) of the Class G correction amplifier.

Surely not the "Class G" that audio reviewers slated back in the 80's when NAD and Hitachi tried it...? (it was slated due to commutation effects)

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot take that review seriously.

That there is some distortion on the mains I don't dispute. However, I do dispute that said distortion causes any amplifier (or other HiFi item) any issue whatsoever (within reason - but then if the distortion is that bad, the effects will manifest themselves in other ways).

Additionally, devices with switch mode power supplies will offer even more immunity to any of these effects.

I'm beginning to feel like I'm being trolled here lol.

Oh well.................

Apologies to the thread for go OT discussing mains regeneration rather than mains cables.

[ATG]

Tony1963 said:

Blimey. Some extremists here.


And all I’ve said is give it a go. For free.


So what does that make those that refuse? What will they think when someone produces a peer reviewed paper showing that it’s proven and repeatable?

Oh. Hang on. We already know everything in physics, so that’s not possible. I forgot about that. The ones being banished to a desert island should be the blinkered ones who won’t even give something completely harmless a go. For free.

Don't be silly. If someone produced such peer reviewed research showing there was a perceptible difference, we'd all accept it. The whole bleeding point is that no one has done so. And to be clear it would be a very interesting bit of research precisely because it would be so unexpected.

Edited by ATG on Tuesday 3rd March 18:23

[Tony1963]

Borrow some mains leads!

[ATG]

Tony1963 said:

Borrow some mains leads!

I'm not going to bother for the same reason that I'm not going to try putting magnets on my fuel line, nor try to build a perpetual motion machine, nor go looking for vampires. I've got more productive and interesting ways to spend my time.

[Crackie]

Tony1963 said:

Borrow some mains leads!

Why??

The majority of listeners can't tell the difference between the audio output from entry level £30 DVD player and a high end multi thousand pound CD player. There is zero evidence that high end mains cables make a detectable difference in audio performance; there is evidence, from competently conducted ABX testing, which shows that they make no difference whatsoever. https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-ar...

[TonyRPH]

Crackie said:

Tony1963 said:

Borrow some mains leads!

Why??

<snip>

Exactly.

The fact that people claim to hear the difference between 2 lengths of wire of around 1M in length is just ludicrous.

So long as the cable has sufficient capacity to deal with the current demands there won't be any difference.

[LimSlip]

Tony1963 said:

Blimey. Some extremists here.


And all I’ve said is give it a go. For free.


So what does that make those that refuse? What will they think when someone produces a peer reviewed paper showing that it’s proven and repeatable?

Oh. Hang on. We already know everything in physics, so that’s not possible. I forgot about that. The ones being banished to a desert island should be the blinkered ones who won’t even give something completely harmless a go. For free.

You are confusing extremism with "critical thinking", or perhaps simply "knowledge". Physics can indeed accurately predict the electrical characteristics of a given cable construction and it can then describe the influence a short length of this cable will have on the mains waveform reaching your equipment. A cable can add only resistance, capacitance and inductance. Capacitance and inductance introduce a frequency sensitive reactance which is why cables for high frequencies (either digital or analog signals) are critical in their construction and mains power cables are not. Resistance should be low relative to the amount of current the cable is expected to carry, and for this you simply you simply need a high enough cross section of conductor. Obviously the insulation must be rated for the working voltage to prevent breakdown.

The power supply inside your equipment should be removing the vast majority of mains borne noise from the supply rails, and well designed circuits will have excellent rejection of any residual noise on those rails. If they are not then you equipment is poorly designed, and certainly not worthy of an "audiophile" tag.

At best the effect the a short mains cable is miniscule (and in reality so close to zero as to be indistinguishable), so if you didn't perform extensive double blind testing on the cables you borrowed then the results of testing are corrupted by your own bias.

[Tony1963]

Limslip,

I didn’t borrow any.


The only change I’ve made to my mains cables is the change to a Graham’s Hydra, mainly to tidy up the bucket of eels between the stand and the sockets, and to ditch a nasty power strip. That definitely improved the sound, but it’s a different story.

If my local hifi shop handed me a £1k power block and £2k worth of mains leads to try at home for a month, I’d take them. I can’t justify the expenditure at the moment, so my thoughts wouldn’t really change the outcome as far as buying or not is concerned. But at least I’d give it a go, if only to say I heard no difference.