Power cables (for amp)
Discussion
Another vote for they make a difference
Annoyingly having a scientific background, I can find little reason that the mains cable should make any difference. Typical comments regarding it all comes from the same source etc. vs RFI etc. I've seen Ben Duncan's stuff etc. and earthing is very important.
I have two Nordost cables and the rest are Russ Andrews through a Russ Andrews distribution board. They make a substantial difference but nowhere near as much as running balanced mains. Balanced mains uses a 220 to 110 dual output. Hook them both up giving two live outputs with the "ground" common and you are using the transformer to remove all the noise on the mains. Massive reduction in the noise floor and big improvement in the sound from your Hi-Fi. Easy to prove and definitely easy with A:B and blind tests. Russ Andrews wil charge you £1000+ but you can buy the transformers for audio use for about £300.
I am a member of Nag-Fi , based in Kent and we have run a number of blind tests on mains cables (and other stuff). You can hear the difference especially vs expensive cables like Kimber and Nordost.
Annoyingly having a scientific background, I can find little reason that the mains cable should make any difference. Typical comments regarding it all comes from the same source etc. vs RFI etc. I've seen Ben Duncan's stuff etc. and earthing is very important.
I have two Nordost cables and the rest are Russ Andrews through a Russ Andrews distribution board. They make a substantial difference but nowhere near as much as running balanced mains. Balanced mains uses a 220 to 110 dual output. Hook them both up giving two live outputs with the "ground" common and you are using the transformer to remove all the noise on the mains. Massive reduction in the noise floor and big improvement in the sound from your Hi-Fi. Easy to prove and definitely easy with A:B and blind tests. Russ Andrews wil charge you £1000+ but you can buy the transformers for audio use for about £300.
I am a member of Nag-Fi , based in Kent and we have run a number of blind tests on mains cables (and other stuff). You can hear the difference especially vs expensive cables like Kimber and Nordost.
P700DEE said:
Annoyingly having a scientific background.....
To what degree the "Cables can't make a discernible difference" argument is being made on a genuinely scientific basis is actually an interesting question in its own right. A lot of emphasis seems to be placed on the absolute primacy of the blind test, preferably of the double-blind variety. If a quality is not real unless it can be proven via a blind test (and assuming any difference in any kind of HiFi component / set-up is reliably discernible), I can only assume that blind tests occur on an almost non-stop basis within the product testing cycle. (Anything less would obviously be utterly pointless and meaningless.)
On the basis of the above, I would assume that the results of double-blind tests are routinely published in marketing material, both in the case of "giant-killing" cheapies, which, in blind tests, can't be distinguished from high-end models, and high-end models, which are significantly preferred to their high-end competitors.
The trouble is, I don't recall seeing many cases of this (certainly not in any recent history). In the hypothetical situation that I see the error of my ways and decide to bow before the mighty test - can anyone point me in the direction of any such cases. Or, failing that, any reason why manufacturers don't fall over themselves to demonstrate/market their wares in this way?
Also, who here thinks, within a blind test, they could reliably tell the difference between:
A genuinely high-end vinyl setup and a high-end digital one (CD or High Resolution Digital)?
CD Vs Hi Resolution Digital?
Three way test: Large Floorstander in less than perfectly matched room / same Floorstander with Room EQ / top quality standmount (with considerably narrower bandwidth)?
SIgnificantly upgraded component (your choice: source, amp or speaker) Vs system wired with supplied leads against system wired throughout with Nordost Valhalla? (By this I mean you don't know whether a component has been up/downgraded or the component has stayed the same and the wiring has been switched.)
I don't think the cable nay-sayers would find any of the above quite as easy as they might think.
ian996 said:
To what degree the "Cables can't make a discernible difference" argument is being made on a genuinely scientific basis is actually an interesting question in its own right. A lot of emphasis seems to be placed on the absolute primacy of the blind test, preferably of the double-blind variety.
If a quality is not real unless it can be proven via a blind test (and assuming any difference in any kind of HiFi component / set-up is reliably discernible), I can only assume that blind tests occur on an almost non-stop basis within the product testing cycle. (Anything less would obviously be utterly pointless and meaningless.)
On the basis of the above, I would assume that the results of double-blind tests are routinely published in marketing material, both in the case of "giant-killing" cheapies, which, in blind tests, can't be distinguished from high-end models, and high-end models, which are significantly preferred to their high-end competitors.
The trouble is, I don't recall seeing many cases of this (certainly not in any recent history). In the hypothetical situation that I see the error of my ways and decide to bow before the mighty test - can anyone point me in the direction of any such cases. Or, failing that, any reason why manufacturers don't fall over themselves to demonstrate/market their wares in this way?
Also, who here thinks, within a blind test, they could reliably tell the difference between:
A genuinely high-end vinyl setup and a high-end digital one (CD or High Resolution Digital)?
CD Vs Hi Resolution Digital?
Three way test: Large Floorstander in less than perfectly matched room / same Floorstander with Room EQ / top quality standmount (with considerably narrower bandwidth)?
SIgnificantly upgraded component (your choice: source, amp or speaker) Vs system wired with supplied leads against system wired throughout with Nordost Valhalla? (By this I mean you don't know whether a component has been up/downgraded or the component has stayed the same and the wiring has been switched.)
I don't think the cable nay-sayers would find any of the above quite as easy as they might think.
People use double blind randomised control trials to establish the difference between things under test when the there is significant risk that the perceived outcome of a non-blind test is going to be distorted by the experimenters' expectations. It isn't specific to audio testing. It's applicable to any field where there is a risk that our expectations will distort our ability to judge outcome. It is heavily used in testing drugs to eliminate the placebo effect on the subjects and wishful thinking on the part of the experimenters.If a quality is not real unless it can be proven via a blind test (and assuming any difference in any kind of HiFi component / set-up is reliably discernible), I can only assume that blind tests occur on an almost non-stop basis within the product testing cycle. (Anything less would obviously be utterly pointless and meaningless.)
On the basis of the above, I would assume that the results of double-blind tests are routinely published in marketing material, both in the case of "giant-killing" cheapies, which, in blind tests, can't be distinguished from high-end models, and high-end models, which are significantly preferred to their high-end competitors.
The trouble is, I don't recall seeing many cases of this (certainly not in any recent history). In the hypothetical situation that I see the error of my ways and decide to bow before the mighty test - can anyone point me in the direction of any such cases. Or, failing that, any reason why manufacturers don't fall over themselves to demonstrate/market their wares in this way?
Also, who here thinks, within a blind test, they could reliably tell the difference between:
A genuinely high-end vinyl setup and a high-end digital one (CD or High Resolution Digital)?
CD Vs Hi Resolution Digital?
Three way test: Large Floorstander in less than perfectly matched room / same Floorstander with Room EQ / top quality standmount (with considerably narrower bandwidth)?
SIgnificantly upgraded component (your choice: source, amp or speaker) Vs system wired with supplied leads against system wired throughout with Nordost Valhalla? (By this I mean you don't know whether a component has been up/downgraded or the component has stayed the same and the wiring has been switched.)
I don't think the cable nay-sayers would find any of the above quite as easy as they might think.
Can anyone see a problem with the logic of a double blind randomised control trial?
Does this mean that ALL testing needs to be double blind? NO. If judging the outcome of a test isn't at serious risk of experimenters' unconscious bias, you don't need the overhead of blind testing. For example, you don't need a double blind randomised control trial to establish if a tyre is flat or a light bulb has blown. Similarly you don't need a blind test to establish if one power amp has less harmonic distortion then another power amp if you can demonstrate this quantifiably with a piece of test equipment.
But if you want to judge whether two setups sound different from each other and it is quickly apparent that the difference is small and challenging to perceive, I'd have thought any rational person would recognise that a blind test was an appropriate approach to judging if a perceptible difference actually existed.
Again, can anyone see a logical flaw with that?
Clearly there are practical barriers to constructing some blind tests. For example if I make the claim that speaker wire A sounds better than speaker wire B but only after they've both been installed and left undisturbed in my living room for six months, then it'll take many years to collect enough data to get a statistically significant outcome.
And there are other classes of claim that cannot be blind tested, e.g. "my hifi sounds better when I stand on my head."
But when conducting a simple A/B test is easy and you're trying to make a challenging, subjective judgement, why on earth wouldn't you choose to conduct a proper double blind randomised control trial? It would give you real confidence in the outcome of the test.
In such circumstances, if someone doesn't conduct a proper blind test, how can you have any confidence in the result they claim?
And it's entirely fair to ask why they haven't conducted a robust test. Is it incompetence? Is it laziness? Is it dishonesty?
Gary C said:
mgv8 said:
Monty Python said:
This sort of thing always makes me wonder why the manufacturer of said amplifier doesn't do this in the first place (especially if the difference is that obvious).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Fxsc8P4jdY
Quote from here https://www.airaudio.co.uk/brands/air-audio-servic...
Balanced mains transformers work for mains power like balanced signal lines where there is a lower noise floor due to the balanced signal through the cables cancelling out the 'noise'. Both balanced mains and balanced signal lines are used extensively in recording, radio and TV studios to offer the lowest noise floor.
Having worked for 2 of the largest radio groups in the UK and been in many transmitter halls I have never seen any "Mains Balancing" units.
I cant find any of their junk in any of the suppliers we use Bryant Broadcast, Canford Audio or Studio care.
The only "Balancing" that's done it to make sure all 3 incoming phases are loaded equally. The leccy board don't like uneven loads on their supplies.
Still can't get over the directional fuses and cable burn in. I
mgv8 said:
TonyRPH said:
Finally, if you can hear a difference it has to be measurable as there is nothing magical about audio engineering.
When the BBC LS3/5a where put tougher they where looking for a flat response. The microphone showed this but the expert ears said there was something wrong at the cross over frequency between the two drivers. The "bump" was introduced to fix this (ear over testing). There is a lot going on and so testing is the clear way forwards. For me like the BBC engineers I can hear the difference between the cable that came with the amp and my new one.
I'm always struck by the irony that by the time most of us can afford the absolute top end of audio equipment, our ears are definitely slipping down from their best...
tonyvid said:
Slightly off-topic...I'm a video editor and have a pair of LS3/5a speakers right in front of me now - whatever they did to them really worked and I love mine!
I'm always struck by the irony that by the time most of us can afford the absolute top end of audio equipment, our ears are definitely slipping down from their best...
Most people lose the higher frequencies first as they age. The important mid-range is still a pleasure, so I’ve read. I'm always struck by the irony that by the time most of us can afford the absolute top end of audio equipment, our ears are definitely slipping down from their best...
Tony1963 said:
tonyvid said:
Slightly off-topic...I'm a video editor and have a pair of LS3/5a speakers right in front of me now - whatever they did to them really worked and I love mine!
I'm always struck by the irony that by the time most of us can afford the absolute top end of audio equipment, our ears are definitely slipping down from their best...
Most people lose the higher frequencies first as they age. The important mid-range is still a pleasure, so I’ve read. I'm always struck by the irony that by the time most of us can afford the absolute top end of audio equipment, our ears are definitely slipping down from their best...
ian996 said:
P700DEE said:
Annoyingly having a scientific background.....
To what degree the "Cables can't make a discernible difference" argument is being made on a genuinely scientific basis is actually an interesting question in its own right. A lot of emphasis seems to be placed on the absolute primacy of the blind test, preferably of the double-blind variety. If a quality is not real unless it can be proven via a blind test (and assuming any difference in any kind of HiFi component / set-up is reliably discernible), I can only assume that blind tests occur on an almost non-stop basis within the product testing cycle. (Anything less would obviously be utterly pointless and meaningless.)
On the basis of the above, I would assume that the results of double-blind tests are routinely published in marketing material, both in the case of "giant-killing" cheapies, which, in blind tests, can't be distinguished from high-end models, and high-end models, which are significantly preferred to their high-end competitors.
The trouble is, I don't recall seeing many cases of this (certainly not in any recent history). In the hypothetical situation that I see the error of my ways and decide to bow before the mighty test - can anyone point me in the direction of any such cases. Or, failing that, any reason why manufacturers don't fall over themselves to demonstrate/market their wares in this way?
Also, who here thinks, within a blind test, they could reliably tell the difference between:
A genuinely high-end vinyl setup and a high-end digital one (CD or High Resolution Digital)?
CD Vs Hi Resolution Digital?
Three way test: Large Floorstander in less than perfectly matched room / same Floorstander with Room EQ / top quality standmount (with considerably narrower bandwidth)?
SIgnificantly upgraded component (your choice: source, amp or speaker) Vs system wired with supplied leads against system wired throughout with Nordost Valhalla? (By this I mean you don't know whether a component has been up/downgraded or the component has stayed the same and the wiring has been switched.)
I don't think the cable nay-sayers would find any of the above quite as easy as they might think.
Back in the day Hi-Fi Choice Magazine concentrated on blind testing of one different type of equipment each month, amps one month, speakers the next etc etc. The test panel was made up of the reviewer and usually 6-8 invited reviewers; this reviewing panel was invited from manufacturers within the industry. Using this blind methodology, a reviewer could be heaping praise on a competitors product or dismissing one of their own. No method is perfect but imho it was way better than most; certainly from the point that the conclusions look at the opinion a group of listeners rather than one individual.
I think the fact that these group tests unearthed some serious giant killers may well have led to their demise. I recall a couple of relatively entry Technics CD players outperforming everything else in their respective test including very well respected gear from people like Meridian and Quad. There was a low cost ( £160 ) Rotel integrated amp which a very high score for sound quality. It was only beaten by 5 or 6 amps at that time one of which was a Conrad Johnson pre amp that cost 56 times the price of the Rotel.
I can understand some companies not wanting their expensive gear exposed to that scrutiny.
http://www.yaegeraudio.com/reviews/technics-sl-pg5...
Crackie said:
Good post
Back in the day Hi-Fi Choice Magazine concentrated on blind testing of one different type of equipment each month, amps one month, speakers the next etc etc. The test panel was made up of the reviewer and usually 6-8 invited reviewers; this reviewing panel was invited from manufacturers within the industry. Using this blind methodology, a reviewer could be heaping praise on a competitors product or dismissing one of their own. No method is perfect but imho it was way better than most; certainly from the point that the conclusions look at the opinion a group of listeners rather than one individual.
I think the fact that these group tests unearthed some serious giant killers may well have led to their demise. I recall a couple of relatively entry Technics CD players outperforming everything else in their respective test including very well respected gear from people like Meridian and Quad. There was a low cost ( £160 ) Rotel integrated amp which a very high score for sound quality. It was only beaten by 5 or 6 amps at that time one of which was a Conrad Johnson pre amp that cost 56 times the price of the Rotel.
I can understand some companies not wanting their expensive gear exposed to that scrutiny.
http://www.yaegeraudio.com/reviews/technics-sl-pg5...
I found an old Technics CD player in the cupboard last week I'd been given years ago and had never used, decided to dig it out and see how it sounded nowadays - worked for about 20 seconds then started being intermittent out of the RCAs and I turned it off before it caused any damage. I left it out for the dump but thought I'd have a go at trying to fix it at some point, just been up and checked the model number as it looked similar to the one in your link and it's the "giant-killing SL-PG200A" mentioned in the first line of the article! Case is a bit worse for wear and the Technics badge is gone, however the fascia is clean enough and it's reading/playing discs fine, just the RCA issue - maybe a super duper, figure of 8 power, cable upgrade would help it... Back in the day Hi-Fi Choice Magazine concentrated on blind testing of one different type of equipment each month, amps one month, speakers the next etc etc. The test panel was made up of the reviewer and usually 6-8 invited reviewers; this reviewing panel was invited from manufacturers within the industry. Using this blind methodology, a reviewer could be heaping praise on a competitors product or dismissing one of their own. No method is perfect but imho it was way better than most; certainly from the point that the conclusions look at the opinion a group of listeners rather than one individual.
I think the fact that these group tests unearthed some serious giant killers may well have led to their demise. I recall a couple of relatively entry Technics CD players outperforming everything else in their respective test including very well respected gear from people like Meridian and Quad. There was a low cost ( £160 ) Rotel integrated amp which a very high score for sound quality. It was only beaten by 5 or 6 amps at that time one of which was a Conrad Johnson pre amp that cost 56 times the price of the Rotel.
I can understand some companies not wanting their expensive gear exposed to that scrutiny.
http://www.yaegeraudio.com/reviews/technics-sl-pg5...
I'll give it a good clean tomorrow and try it on an old amp/speakers that I'm not worried if it damages and see how it goes.
stevoknevo said:
Crackie said:
Good post
Back in the day Hi-Fi Choice Magazine concentrated on blind testing of one different type of equipment each month, amps one month, speakers the next etc etc. The test panel was made up of the reviewer and usually 6-8 invited reviewers; this reviewing panel was invited from manufacturers within the industry. Using this blind methodology, a reviewer could be heaping praise on a competitors product or dismissing one of their own. No method is perfect but imho it was way better than most; certainly from the point that the conclusions look at the opinion a group of listeners rather than one individual.
I think the fact that these group tests unearthed some serious giant killers may well have led to their demise. I recall a couple of relatively entry Technics CD players outperforming everything else in their respective test including very well respected gear from people like Meridian and Quad. There was a low cost ( £160 ) Rotel integrated amp which a very high score for sound quality. It was only beaten by 5 or 6 amps at that time one of which was a Conrad Johnson pre amp that cost 56 times the price of the Rotel.
I can understand some companies not wanting their expensive gear exposed to that scrutiny.
http://www.yaegeraudio.com/reviews/technics-sl-pg5...
I found an old Technics CD player in the cupboard last week I'd been given years ago and had never used, decided to dig it out and see how it sounded nowadays - worked for about 20 seconds then started being intermittent out of the RCAs and I turned it off before it caused any damage. I left it out for the dump but thought I'd have a go at trying to fix it at some point, just been up and checked the model number as it looked similar to the one in your link and it's the "giant-killing SL-PG200A" mentioned in the first line of the article! Case is a bit worse for wear and the Technics badge is gone, however the fascia is clean enough and it's reading/playing discs fine, just the RCA issue - maybe a super duper, figure of 8 power, cable upgrade would help it... Back in the day Hi-Fi Choice Magazine concentrated on blind testing of one different type of equipment each month, amps one month, speakers the next etc etc. The test panel was made up of the reviewer and usually 6-8 invited reviewers; this reviewing panel was invited from manufacturers within the industry. Using this blind methodology, a reviewer could be heaping praise on a competitors product or dismissing one of their own. No method is perfect but imho it was way better than most; certainly from the point that the conclusions look at the opinion a group of listeners rather than one individual.
I think the fact that these group tests unearthed some serious giant killers may well have led to their demise. I recall a couple of relatively entry Technics CD players outperforming everything else in their respective test including very well respected gear from people like Meridian and Quad. There was a low cost ( £160 ) Rotel integrated amp which a very high score for sound quality. It was only beaten by 5 or 6 amps at that time one of which was a Conrad Johnson pre amp that cost 56 times the price of the Rotel.
I can understand some companies not wanting their expensive gear exposed to that scrutiny.
http://www.yaegeraudio.com/reviews/technics-sl-pg5...
I'll give it a good clean tomorrow and try it on an old amp/speakers that I'm not worried if it damages and see how it goes.
You sure the cd wasn't skipping?
The optical pickup focus and trim are adjustable on those units if the lasers starting to get weak.
I doubt it would damage an amp as most decent audio kit has a capacitor in the output circuit to block any dc current getting out. Just keep the amp volume low to protect your speakers from sudden bursts of loud music.
You'll be please to know those cd players don't have any directional fuses in them :-) So one less item to worry about
Edited by 996owner on Friday 7th February 10:04
996owner said:
I doubt it would damage an amp as most decent audio kit has a capacitor in the output circuit to block any dc current getting out.
You were doing so well until that line ^^^^ !In fact very few amps have capacitors in the output stage these days - they are all DC coupled to the speaker.
However most will have a coupling capacitor on the input, however applying a few volts DC to this will still result in a healthy thump on the output.
EDIT: @996owner - sorry, misread your post.
Edited by TonyRPH on Friday 7th February 13:13
996owner said:
Plug headphones in and see if the headphone out is ok.
You sure the cd wasn't skipping?
The optical pickup focus and trim are adjustable on those units if the lasers starting to get weak.
I doubt it would damage an amp as most decent audio kit has a capacitor in the output circuit to block any dc current getting out. Just keep the amp volume low to protect your speakers from sudden bursts of loud music.
You'll be please to know those cd players don't have any directional fuses in them :-) So one less item to worry about
Was definitely the RCAs as it was dropping signal/crackly to either channel when I wiggled the interconnects - I only got the receiver about 3 weeks ago and was taking no chances! Funnily enough it had a 3.5mm adapter in the headphone socket which is handy as that's the only headphones I have to test. You sure the cd wasn't skipping?
The optical pickup focus and trim are adjustable on those units if the lasers starting to get weak.
I doubt it would damage an amp as most decent audio kit has a capacitor in the output circuit to block any dc current getting out. Just keep the amp volume low to protect your speakers from sudden bursts of loud music.
You'll be please to know those cd players don't have any directional fuses in them :-) So one less item to worry about
Edited by 996owner on Friday 7th February 10:04
Going to have a look at it now, I've not used it in easily 10 years, might well just need the oxidation cleaned off the RCA connectors?
TonyRPH said:
996owner said:
I doubt it would damage an amp as most decent audio kit has a capacitor in the output circuit to block any dc current getting out.
You were doing so well until that line ^^^^ !In fact very few amps have capacitors in the output stage these days - they are all DC coupled to the speaker.
However most will have a coupling capacitor on the input, however applying a few volts DC to this will still result in a healthy thump on the output.
TonyRPH said:
996owner said:
I doubt it would damage an amp as most decent audio kit has a capacitor in the output circuit to block any dc current getting out.
You were doing so well until that line ^^^^ !In fact very few amps have capacitors in the output stage these days - they are all DC coupled to the speaker.
However most will have a coupling capacitor on the input, however applying a few volts DC to this will still result in a healthy thump on the output.
EDIT: @996owner - sorry, misread your post.
Edited by TonyRPH on Friday 7th February 13:13
Most if not all line level audio kit (pre amp level) will have dc blocking caps. I'd be surprised to see any half decent audio kit without such components in place.
That said I only really work on pro audio kit.
stevoknevo said:
996owner said:
Plug headphones in and see if the headphone out is ok.
You sure the cd wasn't skipping?
The optical pickup focus and trim are adjustable on those units if the lasers starting to get weak.
I doubt it would damage an amp as most decent audio kit has a capacitor in the output circuit to block any dc current getting out. Just keep the amp volume low to protect your speakers from sudden bursts of loud music.
You'll be please to know those cd players don't have any directional fuses in them :-) So one less item to worry about
Was definitely the RCAs as it was dropping signal/crackly to either channel when I wiggled the interconnects - I only got the receiver about 3 weeks ago and was taking no chances! Funnily enough it had a 3.5mm adapter in the headphone socket which is handy as that's the only headphones I have to test. You sure the cd wasn't skipping?
The optical pickup focus and trim are adjustable on those units if the lasers starting to get weak.
I doubt it would damage an amp as most decent audio kit has a capacitor in the output circuit to block any dc current getting out. Just keep the amp volume low to protect your speakers from sudden bursts of loud music.
You'll be please to know those cd players don't have any directional fuses in them :-) So one less item to worry about
Edited by 996owner on Friday 7th February 10:04
Going to have a look at it now, I've not used it in easily 10 years, might well just need the oxidation cleaned off the RCA connectors?
Leave the unit a few minutes for any excess fluid to evaporate.
As most RCA sockets are soldered onto the board, it may need re soldering. Doubt it thou.
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