Zonal music - Sonos alternatives?

[Griffith4ever]

Depends on the location, but leaving them on is no big deal - most electronics last longer that way, and they consume next to nothing in standby unless you are running some very old tech, or valve amps :-)

Put it this way, my zone player 100's are just amps, with sonos built in. They are on 24/7.

[paralla]

Griffith4ever said:

Depends on the location, but leaving them on is no big deal - most electronics last longer that way, and they consume next to nothing in standby unless you are running some very old tech, or valve amps :-)

Put it this way, my zone player 100's are just amps, with sonos built in. They are on 24/7.

Standby and on with no signal are different things. If the amp doesn’t have signal sensing switching, stopping playback on the streaming device doesn’t turn the amplifier off and starting streaming doesn’t turn it on. I have Sonos Amps hidden away in places I wouldn’t like to leave an analogue amp always powered on.

Zone player 100’s are digital amps that are far more efficient and generate a fraction of the heat than conventional analog amplifiers.

[CornishRob]

I have Bluesound throughout our house.

[jimothyc]

Have you condisiderd hacking some Symfonisk speakers and connecting them to ceiling speakers. Currently £89 each, so cheaper than an amp. They are mono, but you can create a stereo pair with 2 of them.

Extract the electronics from the speaker and connect to ceiling speaker of your choice,

[paulrockliffe]

Adam. said:

Assume you are talking about me seeking to justify my wasting a tonne of money?

No I wasn't, I was referring to some of the replies and to other threads on here.

There's undoubtably an element of support for Sonos that mainly exists because it's very hard to say there's a £20 answer when you've already spent £600 answering it yourself.

[techguyone]

Given its a house renovation I'd likely have gone the amazon echo route and taken the opportunity to 'smart' the house at the same time.

[Zoon]

Adam. said:

I am renovating a large house and want to future proof the AV.

And therein lies your problem. You are trying to do the impossible.

[paulrockliffe]

paralla said:

Question for the people using cheap second hand amps with streaming gadgets plugged into them? Do you leave the amps powered on 24/7 or do you physically turn them on and off manually when you want to use them?

None of those options.

I use IFTTT, Tado and a WiFi plug. The rules are basically, on at 6am, off at 10pm, then on top of that if Tado goes into Away Mode, turn them off, if it goes into Home Mode, turn them on. Away and Home mode are set using phone geolocation, so if everyone goes out, they turn off, if someone comes home they turn on.

The only flaw in the logic is if you come home after 10pm, the amps will turn on and stay on until 10pm the next night or everyone goes out again. But I think that can be resolved in the new IFTTT Pro as it allows for stored states and more complex logic now.

I also have voice control of the WiFi sockets, which is much better than going to a cupboard to find the switch for manual. Perhaps it's possible to use the asking for Music to trigger a Routine in Google Home that also turns the amps on? I've not looked at that.

I looked at signal sensing relays a few years ago, they were £50 each, so not really a good fit for my budget approach. I'm sure there is something you could build yourself using an Arduino and some electronics, but I've never had the time or inclination to explore that.

I think that while that's not perfect, it's good enough not to be a problem and the perfect solution is achievable if you really wanted.

[paralla]

paulrockliffe said:

None of those options.

I use IFTTT, Tado and a WiFi plug. The rules are basically, on at 6am, off at 10pm, then on top of that if Tado goes into Away Mode, turn them off, if it goes into Home Mode, turn them on. Away and Home mode are set using phone geolocation, so if everyone goes out, they turn off, if someone comes home they turn on.

The only flaw in the logic is if you come home after 10pm, the amps will turn on and stay on until 10pm the next night or everyone goes out again. But I think that can be resolved in the new IFTTT Pro as it allows for stored states and more complex logic now.

I also have voice control of the WiFi sockets, which is much better than going to a cupboard to find the switch for manual. Perhaps it's possible to use the asking for Music to trigger a Routine in Google Home that also turns the amps on? I've not looked at that.

I looked at signal sensing relays a few years ago, they were £50 each, so not really a good fit for my budget approach. I'm sure there is something you could build yourself using an Arduino and some electronics, but I've never had the time or inclination to explore that.

I think that while that's not perfect, it's good enough not to be a problem and the perfect solution is achievable if you really wanted.

I looked at replacing ta 55W/Chanel Sonos ConnectAmp that powers a pair of Monitor Audio outdoor speakers on my roof terrace as they are quiet power hungry and 55W/Ch is working pretty hard to drive them. The Sonos Connect Amp is out of sight on top of a kitchen cabinet. I researched more powerful Class D alternatives but discounted all of them as none included signal sensing inputs that would turn it on and off and I wasn't happy leaving it on when not in use.

I have Lightwave RF for lighting and Tado for heating so could have used either of those systems to power an amp on and off but having to use another app in addition to Sonos compromises functionality to the point that it would never get used. I know this because the Sonos Connect connected to the big AV Amp in the front room never gets used because you have to either open a cabinet and turn it on manually or use the Dennon App to turn it on, instead of using the big 5.1 system via the Sonos connect we use a single Play 1 because it's more convenient. In our house convenience is king.

[JEA1K]

Adam. said:

I am renovating a large house and want to future proof the AV.

All rooms have cat 6e points and connections to hard wire TVs and speakers or Sky

All cat 6e cabling routes to a cupboard under stairs which will have an AV rack, patch panels, amps, router etc

For the 3 main TV areas I will likely have separate Sonos setups (sound bar, subs and play 1 surrounds) as I have most of this kit already for 2 TVs.

But in addition 7 rooms will also have ceiling speakers so ideally I would like a Sonos type system with 7 zones that can play same or different music, whether via Spotify etc or via my collection stored on a NAS.

Trouble is I think a Sonos solution means 7 amps at £600 each which is a lot!

Are there cheaper / better alternatives?

Forget cobbling together janky systems with amps and chromecasts, I've seen people do this time and time again and usually doesn't achieve what the individual needs to save a few quid.

Heos or Yamaha are the only credible alternatives ... its not just about the products, its the way in which the app works and how intuitive it is. They won't actually 'that' much cheaper .

Ask yourself if you really need 7 zones of audio? You could always run a couple of zones from the same amp if they're rarely used together. I rarely see (or advise) that many zones of audio these days. I class Sonos as 'convenience audio', its not about sound quality, its about accessible music in a particular zone.

I'd go better quality audio in less rooms but thats just me

[Adam.]

JEA1K said:

Ask yourself if you really need 7 zones of audio? You could always run a couple of zones from the same amp if they're rarely used together. I rarely see (or advise) that many zones of audio these days. I class Sonos as 'convenience audio', its not about sound quality, its about accessible music in a particular zone.

I'd go better quality audio in less rooms but thats just me

Did you mean if they are rarely used apart? how many speakers can i drive off one Sonos amp?

I know it’s not the purist solution but I gave up on high end audio as I got older, reckon it’s wasted on my ears now

It’s a big house - 4000 sq ft

Zones are:
Kitchen / living room
Main reception
Study
Rear reception / TV snug
Bedroom 1
En-suite 1
Bedroom 6 / gym

(En-suite 1 seems unnecessary but I like radio 4 in the mornings and not waking up the missus)

I probably won’t hook up main or rear reception to amp initially as they will have the Sonos soundbars / sub / surrounds so I can use them until we are moved in and know how we are living there.

Edited by Adam. on Wednesday 30th June 21:09

[Adam.]

JEA1K said:

Forget cobbling together janky systems with amps and chromecasts, I've seen people do this time and time again and usually doesn't achieve what the individual needs to save a few quid.

Heos or Yamaha are the only credible alternatives ... its not just about the products, its the way in which the app works and how intuitive it is. They won't actually 'that' much cheaper .

Thanks yes the convenience of Sonos is excellent, being able to hook up to Spotify, my iTunes account, my NAS library etc.

Through gritted teeth I have to admire their stuff - its good quality, pricey so not best VFM and they manage supply well to limit discounts

[JEA1K]

Adam. said:

Thanks yes the convenience of Sonos is excellent, being able to hook up to Spotify, my iTunes account, my NAS library etc.

Through gritted teeth I have to admire their stuff - its good quality, pricey so not best VFM and they manage supply well to limit discounts

We've installed plenty over the years, again, through gritted teeth as the product margins are poor. BUT, it doesn't go wrong ... since the sacked of the controllers, we've had virtually no repairs returns. Maybe 2 x amps in 15 years ... both down to abuse (pidgeon st in one and a spilled drink in the other).

We also pair Sonos ports with Meridian speakers/processors, mainly down to the experience when using the app.

Adam. said:

Did you mean if they are rarely used apart? how many speakers can i drive off one Sonos amp?

I know it’s not the purist solution but I gave up on high end audio as I got older, reckon it’s wasted on my ears now

It’s a big house - 4000 sq ft

Zones are:
Kitchen / living room
Main reception
Study
Rear reception / TV snug
Bedroom 1
En-suite 1
Bedroom 6 / gym

(En-suite 1 seems unnecessary but I like radio 4 in the mornings and not waking up the missus)

I probably won’t hook up main or rear reception to amp initially as they will have the Sonos soundbars / sub / surrounds so I can use them until we are moved in and know how we are living there.

Edited by Adam. on Wednesday 30th June 21:09

A Sonos amp will drive 2 zones fine, so if you could combine it makes life easier. The Bed/En-suite is more difficult ... it does seem like an extravagance to have two seperate zones ... we usually recommend an inline/in-wall speaker selector .... rudimentary but does the job. Although if already cabled, its possibly too late for one of these ...

As you have alluded to, I'd wait until you move in and see how you live there before spending more ... I know plenty of our customers who have rooms they never go in ... and I mean never, which is only used when we service the system

[Adam.]

JEA1K said:

A Sonos amp will drive 2 zones fine, so if you could combine it makes life easier. The Bed/En-suite is more difficult ... it does seem like an extravagance to have two seperate zones ... we usually recommend an inline/in-wall speaker selector .... rudimentary but does the job. Although if already cabled, its possibly too late for one of these ...

how does that work please?

not sure if too late, speaker cables all in place, speakers not in ceilings yet, all speaker and data cables feed down to a central AV cupboard

[paralla]

Adam. said:

how does that work please?

not sure if too late, speaker cables all in place, speakers not in ceilings yet, all speaker and data cables feed down to a central AV cupboard

The Sonos Amp can power two sets of speakers connected as in the picture, the impedance of the speakers should be 8 Ohms (It usually is).

The Amp will play the same music through all four speakers at the same volume. If you're using four speakers and they are in different rooms, then both rooms will play the same music. It's a cheaper solution but you loose the ability to individually control what's playing (and how loud it's playing) in the two rooms. It might work well in your Kitchen/living room but probably not your bedroom/en-suite.

Edited by paralla on Thursday 1st July 16:42

[Adam.]

thanks but I meant this bit:

"we usually recommend an inline/in-wall speaker selector "

which I assume does allow you two select having one room speaker on and one off (or both on) using a single amp

this would work well for my bed 1 / ensuite 1

[paralla]

Adam. said:

thanks but I meant this bit:

"we usually recommend an inline/in-wall speaker selector "

which I assume does allow you two select having one room speaker on and one off (or both on) using a single amp

this would work well for my bed 1 / ensuite 1

Install a speaker selector switch like this between the Amp and the two pairs of speakers.

https://www.ceiling-speakers.co.uk/products/qed-wm...

[Adam.]

gotcha, thanks paralla

[JEA1K]

Yes the WM17 allows you to effectively subzone the two areas. So Zone A, Zone B or Zone A & B together.

[paralla]

JEA1K said:

Yes the WM17 allows you to effectively subzone the two areas. So Zone A, Zone B or Zone A & B together.

Singe the impedance of two pairs of 8 Ohm speakers is 4 Ohms when connected in parallel and since the Sonos Amp is rated down to 4 Ohms, a parallel speaker switch (QED WM15) is better suited than a series speaker switch (QED WM17).

If any of the speakers are less than 8 Ohms you should use a QED WM17 to ensure you don't overload the Amp.