Is HD worth it for a mainly-TV user without a BluRay?
Discussion
We're moving house this month, and Sky are offering me a free SkyHD box if I upgrade when I move house.
So I'm now considering a HDTV, albeit I'm not 100% convinced - a read through the reviews and an hour in Comet (unhelpful souls that they were) hasn't helped, as it still appears that for SD picture quality none of the sub-£1k 40-42" HDTVs can match my current (6y.o.) Sony 32" CRT. Plus it appears that peripherals (cabling, stand, power breaker) could easily add another £2-300, before I even consider a BluRay player (which I don't think we'd use enough to be worth getting right now).
As far as use goes:-
- ordinary TV most often
- Films ~1x per week, maybe a little more
- Gaming infrequently
I DO like the look of some of the BBC's nature docs on HD, and I'd imagine films would be fantastic...but is it really worth a £1k outlay right now? Am I worrying too much about the SD quality, or is it still a real issue with flat-screens vs CRT's?
Thanks all,
Martin
So I'm now considering a HDTV, albeit I'm not 100% convinced - a read through the reviews and an hour in Comet (unhelpful souls that they were) hasn't helped, as it still appears that for SD picture quality none of the sub-£1k 40-42" HDTVs can match my current (6y.o.) Sony 32" CRT. Plus it appears that peripherals (cabling, stand, power breaker) could easily add another £2-300, before I even consider a BluRay player (which I don't think we'd use enough to be worth getting right now).
As far as use goes:-
- ordinary TV most often
- Films ~1x per week, maybe a little more
- Gaming infrequently
I DO like the look of some of the BBC's nature docs on HD, and I'd imagine films would be fantastic...but is it really worth a £1k outlay right now? Am I worrying too much about the SD quality, or is it still a real issue with flat-screens vs CRT's?
Thanks all,
Martin
Dont know where Comet come up with £300.00 for cables etc. Anyway....Suggest a Pana TXP42X20 [ HD ready] or a 42S20 [ Full HD] All depends how far you sit fro the screen. I would go for the 42X20 judging by what youve said.
Screen between £600-£650.00
HDMI cable £10.00
Powerbreaker £30.00
Stand from £50.00 up
Independent dealers also giving a 5 year manufacturers warranty
Shameless plug...We're in Shrewsbury if it helps!
Screen between £600-£650.00
HDMI cable £10.00
Powerbreaker £30.00
Stand from £50.00 up
Independent dealers also giving a 5 year manufacturers warranty
Shameless plug...We're in Shrewsbury if it helps!
Edited by E31Shrew on Sunday 3rd October 21:34
Check out amazon for prices Panasonic 42s20 is currently £550.and 42g20 is at £709 far cheaper than anyone I've found although.comet do have the g20 for £788 including a Panasonic blueray player.
Second point is do you have sky movies and sports and actually watch them? We only have sports and looking at the fact that sky would cost me £52 a month vs freesat at zero cost a month I decided is rather save the money and miss out on sports. Obviously to each their own just thinking of the fact that in a a year the saving would of paid for the tv.
Hope some of this helps.
Second point is do you have sky movies and sports and actually watch them? We only have sports and looking at the fact that sky would cost me £52 a month vs freesat at zero cost a month I decided is rather save the money and miss out on sports. Obviously to each their own just thinking of the fact that in a a year the saving would of paid for the tv.
Hope some of this helps.
Thanks guys, but I can shop around myself _IF_ I decide to go ahead - at this point in time I'm struggling to see the point in spending thick end of a grand on a TV with a worse SD picture and worse audio than I currently enjoy.
Wondering if anyone else had the same issues and what decision they made?
Wondering if anyone else had the same issues and what decision they made?
whilst i agree that you are probably able to shop around yourself i was just trying to point out that if you could make do without sky and move over to freesat then you are essentially getting the tv for free after a certain time period due to the savings made. This may of helped you form an opinion as to whether it is worth it or not given due consideration.
havoc said:
Thanks guys, but I can shop around myself _IF_ I decide to go ahead - at this point in time I'm struggling to see the point in spending thick end of a grand on a TV with a worse SD picture and worse audio than I currently enjoy.
Wondering if anyone else had the same issues and what decision they made?
No worries. Good luckWondering if anyone else had the same issues and what decision they made?
havoc said:
Thanks guys, but I can shop around myself _IF_ I decide to go ahead - at this point in time I'm struggling to see the point in spending thick end of a grand on a TV with a worse SD picture and worse audio than I currently enjoy.
Wondering if anyone else had the same issues and what decision they made?
Not sure where you've got the picture/sound opinion from. I've got a 32 inch Sony CRT, a 36 inch Tosh, a year 2001 50 inch Pana plasma and a 63 inch Samsung plasma.Wondering if anyone else had the same issues and what decision they made?
Both of the plasmas offer better picture quality on SD than the CRTs. The improvement is even more clear when the Sky HD (even in SD) is connected digitally by HDMI to the TV.
I daresay that there may be some low end LCDs with less great SD, but I really disagree with plasmas, and I have two top end £1000 plus (in the day) CRTs to compare. Also, my plasmas are 5 and 9 years old respectively - they've got better since then.
Interesting Justin.
Then WTF were Comet up to - EVERY SINGLE ONE of the LCDs and Plasmas* showed noticeable 'noise' (think ISO1600 or MUCH higher, photo-equivalent) where there was a constant patch of colour (LCD issue mainly), and most showed artifacts around fast-moving images (both types - football was terrible to watch on many of them).
Plus colour saturation/fidelity/resolution was MASSIVELY inconsistent even within the same brand (suggesting the TV's are very susceptible to an incorrect set-up). A good friend and my father both have c.50" plasmas, and both of theirs suffer from the same issues. Both (and the Comet stuff) improve with distance, but still not to the level of our 32" Sony CRT.
There were a few in Comet which were running a HDTV cycle which looked very good, but as soon as you switched them to BBC1 etc. they had exactly the same problem.
I mean - if these guys WANTED to sell this type of TV wouldn't they be trying to show them to best advantage?
PS - are you suggesting the Sky "HD" signal, even on SD channels, is better than the standard terrestrial/freeview? That may account for some of the problems above...
* Except for those 4 on the back wall that they'd allegedly hooked-up to their £130 "power smoother" (snake oil?), and were probably just running a HD signal anyway if I'm being cynical.
Then WTF were Comet up to - EVERY SINGLE ONE of the LCDs and Plasmas* showed noticeable 'noise' (think ISO1600 or MUCH higher, photo-equivalent) where there was a constant patch of colour (LCD issue mainly), and most showed artifacts around fast-moving images (both types - football was terrible to watch on many of them).
Plus colour saturation/fidelity/resolution was MASSIVELY inconsistent even within the same brand (suggesting the TV's are very susceptible to an incorrect set-up). A good friend and my father both have c.50" plasmas, and both of theirs suffer from the same issues. Both (and the Comet stuff) improve with distance, but still not to the level of our 32" Sony CRT.
There were a few in Comet which were running a HDTV cycle which looked very good, but as soon as you switched them to BBC1 etc. they had exactly the same problem.
I mean - if these guys WANTED to sell this type of TV wouldn't they be trying to show them to best advantage?
PS - are you suggesting the Sky "HD" signal, even on SD channels, is better than the standard terrestrial/freeview? That may account for some of the problems above...
* Except for those 4 on the back wall that they'd allegedly hooked-up to their £130 "power smoother" (snake oil?), and were probably just running a HD signal anyway if I'm being cynical.
Edited by havoc on Sunday 3rd October 22:17
I have a power conditioner myself, but I have a very high end system. They do work, and mine costs about 3% of the cost of my system. A £100 conditioner on a £500 TV is not going to be cost effective.
Three things about Comet (or anyone else for that matter):
1) It is hit and miss as to the advice you get. It is very likely you will be 'pushed' towards an item which may offer more commission.
2) In a place like that the picture you are seeing is drastically affected by the source. In a lot of cases the source is split 30 - 50 ways through god knows what to get it to the screen. There is no wonder it often looks rubbish, and you cannot make a real assessment.
3) People have been messing with the picture settings. If it looks overblown it is probably because the Sales Floor Manager has put all the dials to 11 to get Toy Story to look so bright it jumps out of the screen.
In short, I would demo somewhere else.
With regards to the box, with the standard Sky box you are connecting to the box with analogue cables. Even a £200 analogue component cable set is not going to transmit the picture as well as a bog standard £10 digital HDMI cable. The Sky HD box runs HDMI.
This actually may be the difference as to why the Comet system looks rubbish. They are probably running 30m runs of analogue cable everywhere. Secondly between TVs and even within TVs differing amounts are spent in the construction of the inputs. I would suggest today that if I were making a £600 plasma, I would spend the budget on fitting good quality HDMI fittings and I wouldn't be spending as much on the analogue inputs simply because they are not going to be used as much.
With regards to HD in general, if you are used to watching it, then you flick back to an SD channel you realise straight away what you are missing.
Three things about Comet (or anyone else for that matter):
1) It is hit and miss as to the advice you get. It is very likely you will be 'pushed' towards an item which may offer more commission.
2) In a place like that the picture you are seeing is drastically affected by the source. In a lot of cases the source is split 30 - 50 ways through god knows what to get it to the screen. There is no wonder it often looks rubbish, and you cannot make a real assessment.
3) People have been messing with the picture settings. If it looks overblown it is probably because the Sales Floor Manager has put all the dials to 11 to get Toy Story to look so bright it jumps out of the screen.
In short, I would demo somewhere else.
With regards to the box, with the standard Sky box you are connecting to the box with analogue cables. Even a £200 analogue component cable set is not going to transmit the picture as well as a bog standard £10 digital HDMI cable. The Sky HD box runs HDMI.
This actually may be the difference as to why the Comet system looks rubbish. They are probably running 30m runs of analogue cable everywhere. Secondly between TVs and even within TVs differing amounts are spent in the construction of the inputs. I would suggest today that if I were making a £600 plasma, I would spend the budget on fitting good quality HDMI fittings and I wouldn't be spending as much on the analogue inputs simply because they are not going to be used as much.
With regards to HD in general, if you are used to watching it, then you flick back to an SD channel you realise straight away what you are missing.
I've got exactly the same concerns as the OP.
I've tried a variety of shops, from the big chains down to more specialist people, and come away thinking the same thing.... If ever all pictures are broadcast in HD, then there would be no question, but until they are, every single SD picture I've seen on LCD or Plasma has been worse than my Tosh CRT.
People then come up with "oh, they haven't tuned it properly in the shop", or "well it's because they've got a crap signal input". Maybe so, but if you went to test drive a car and only 6 out of 8 cylinders were firing, would you accept it, or get back in your existing somewhat older but properly functioning car and drive away?
I've tried a variety of shops, from the big chains down to more specialist people, and come away thinking the same thing.... If ever all pictures are broadcast in HD, then there would be no question, but until they are, every single SD picture I've seen on LCD or Plasma has been worse than my Tosh CRT.
People then come up with "oh, they haven't tuned it properly in the shop", or "well it's because they've got a crap signal input". Maybe so, but if you went to test drive a car and only 6 out of 8 cylinders were firing, would you accept it, or get back in your existing somewhat older but properly functioning car and drive away?
Kermit power said:
I've got exactly the same concerns as the OP.
I've tried a variety of shops, from the big chains down to more specialist people, and come away thinking the same thing.... If ever all pictures are broadcast in HD, then there would be no question, but until they are, every single SD picture I've seen on LCD or Plasma has been worse than my Tosh CRT.
People then come up with "oh, they haven't tuned it properly in the shop", or "well it's because they've got a crap signal input". Maybe so, but if you went to test drive a car and only 6 out of 8 cylinders were firing, would you accept it, or get back in your existing somewhat older but properly functioning car and drive away?
I'd go somewhere where I could get all 8 cylinders firing. I've tried a variety of shops, from the big chains down to more specialist people, and come away thinking the same thing.... If ever all pictures are broadcast in HD, then there would be no question, but until they are, every single SD picture I've seen on LCD or Plasma has been worse than my Tosh CRT.
People then come up with "oh, they haven't tuned it properly in the shop", or "well it's because they've got a crap signal input". Maybe so, but if you went to test drive a car and only 6 out of 8 cylinders were firing, would you accept it, or get back in your existing somewhat older but properly functioning car and drive away?
There may be the factor that if you are comparing a 32 inch screen and a 50 inch screen at the same distance, even an inferior 32 inch screen is going to look more 'sharp' simply because you have less pixels per cm, and effectively you are blowing the same picture up larger.
That said, as I type I'm watching a 50 inch plasma, in SD, and I know I could put both my Sony and Tosh CRTs next to it (both costing over a grand each at the time) and you would laugh at me if I asked you whether you preferred watching the CRTs to the plasma.
I have 2 feeds into my (ageing)Pioneer plasma.
A sky+ box on scart and a Humax Foxsat on HDMI the SD on the Sky feeds is watchable but switch to the same channel on the Humax and the quality is very obviously superior. So same viewing distance, same screen, audio and the signal is coming in on the same dish.
You mention gaming, what do you use as everything current gen except the wii is HD.
A sky+ box on scart and a Humax Foxsat on HDMI the SD on the Sky feeds is watchable but switch to the same channel on the Humax and the quality is very obviously superior. So same viewing distance, same screen, audio and the signal is coming in on the same dish.
You mention gaming, what do you use as everything current gen except the wii is HD.
JustinP1 said:
I have a power conditioner myself, but I have a very high end system. They do work, and mine costs about 3% of the cost of my system. A £100 conditioner on a £500 TV is not going to be cost effective.
Three things about Comet (or anyone else for that matter):
1) It is hit and miss as to the advice you get. It is very likely you will be 'pushed' towards an item which may offer more commission.
2) In a place like that the picture you are seeing is drastically affected by the source. In a lot of cases the source is split 30 - 50 ways through god knows what to get it to the screen. There is no wonder it often looks rubbish, and you cannot make a real assessment.
3) People have been messing with the picture settings. If it looks overblown it is probably because the Sales Floor Manager has put all the dials to 11 to get Toy Story to look so bright it jumps out of the screen.
In short, I would demo somewhere else.
With regards to the box, with the standard Sky box you are connecting to the box with analogue cables. Even a £200 analogue component cable set is not going to transmit the picture as well as a bog standard £10 digital HDMI cable. The Sky HD box runs HDMI.
This actually may be the difference as to why the Comet system looks rubbish. They are probably running 30m runs of analogue cable everywhere. Secondly between TVs and even within TVs differing amounts are spent in the construction of the inputs. I would suggest today that if I were making a £600 plasma, I would spend the budget on fitting good quality HDMI fittings and I wouldn't be spending as much on the analogue inputs simply because they are not going to be used as much.
With regards to HD in general, if you are used to watching it, then you flick back to an SD channel you realise straight away what you are missing.
I'd agree with most of that. The artefacts can also be due to heavy compression of the transmitted signal (from source, not the TV), or to poor upscaling within the TV itself. HD in particular is very heavily compressed by the time it's transmitted to Satellite, and looks pretty poor when compared to viewing it straight out of the back of the camera. Having said that, most people will never get the chance to view uncompressed HD, so it's not really relevant.Three things about Comet (or anyone else for that matter):
1) It is hit and miss as to the advice you get. It is very likely you will be 'pushed' towards an item which may offer more commission.
2) In a place like that the picture you are seeing is drastically affected by the source. In a lot of cases the source is split 30 - 50 ways through god knows what to get it to the screen. There is no wonder it often looks rubbish, and you cannot make a real assessment.
3) People have been messing with the picture settings. If it looks overblown it is probably because the Sales Floor Manager has put all the dials to 11 to get Toy Story to look so bright it jumps out of the screen.
In short, I would demo somewhere else.
With regards to the box, with the standard Sky box you are connecting to the box with analogue cables. Even a £200 analogue component cable set is not going to transmit the picture as well as a bog standard £10 digital HDMI cable. The Sky HD box runs HDMI.
This actually may be the difference as to why the Comet system looks rubbish. They are probably running 30m runs of analogue cable everywhere. Secondly between TVs and even within TVs differing amounts are spent in the construction of the inputs. I would suggest today that if I were making a £600 plasma, I would spend the budget on fitting good quality HDMI fittings and I wouldn't be spending as much on the analogue inputs simply because they are not going to be used as much.
With regards to HD in general, if you are used to watching it, then you flick back to an SD channel you realise straight away what you are missing.
I know what you are getting at with the cables comment, although I must put my pedant's hat on for a moment and say that a cable's a cable. It can't be 'analogue' or 'digital'. However, it's the signals that are passed along them that are either, although if we're being really pedantic, digital is still analogue voltage.
Nevertheless, due to error correction etc, digital loses less on a cable up to a point (where it stops working), and can be pretty much fully recovered at the receive end. Actually, this means that the 'quality' of the cable itself is not of particularly great importance over a short (handful of metres) run, for digital.
Comet will be running Component HD (analogue HD) to their screens, as you say, no doubt on very long runs, and no doubt distributed by a fairly nasty DA.
I relieved myself of £1000 this weekend:
- TV Sony KDL-40EX503
- Blu Ray player Sony BDP-S370
- XBox 360
- Some Blu-Ray films and a game
- Cables
I'd been putting it off for a while. Here is my old 36" Sony Trinitron on the way out:
Standard Definition terrestrial pictures are drastically worse than the CRT Trinitron, the input of which was a Philips Freeview box over SCART. FreeviewHD channels are superb. HD inputs are superb. DVD's upscaled are also superb.
If you mainly use your TV for SD terrestrial it's not worth it. If you use it for other purposes then it definitely is.
- TV Sony KDL-40EX503
- Blu Ray player Sony BDP-S370
- XBox 360
- Some Blu-Ray films and a game
- Cables
I'd been putting it off for a while. Here is my old 36" Sony Trinitron on the way out:
Standard Definition terrestrial pictures are drastically worse than the CRT Trinitron, the input of which was a Philips Freeview box over SCART. FreeviewHD channels are superb. HD inputs are superb. DVD's upscaled are also superb.
If you mainly use your TV for SD terrestrial it's not worth it. If you use it for other purposes then it definitely is.
havoc said:
Such mixed opinions. Still confused.
OK, can anyone categorically say that the SD signal from Sky/Virgin is BETTER on an HDTV than the SD terrestrial/freeview signal is on a CRT? Or even than the Sky/Virgin SD signal is on a CRT?
LCD or plasma?OK, can anyone categorically say that the SD signal from Sky/Virgin is BETTER on an HDTV than the SD terrestrial/freeview signal is on a CRT? Or even than the Sky/Virgin SD signal is on a CRT?
How are you connecting them?
It is my experience that SD looks worse on an LCD. Maybe the way the screen refreshes and interpolates is more obvious with a lower grade picture?
All I do know is, I have a Panasonic plasma from 2001 - so old that 'HD Ready' didn't even exist then, let alone HDMI and digital connections and it looks superb on SD. I'm watching my 36 inch CRT at the moment and would much rather be in the other room.
Also, on my 63 inch plasma SD still looks good. Of course it is the same signal expanded twice the size as say a 32 inch screen so there is going to be some loss of 'sharpness' as if you are blowing up a photo to 4 times the size. But still a great picture and there is no way on earth I would want to sit and watch a CRT.
StevenJJ said:
I relieved myself of £1000 this weekend:
- TV Sony KDL-40EX503
- Blu Ray player Sony BDP-S370
- XBox 360
- Some Blu-Ray films and a game
- Cables
Standard Definition terrestrial pictures are drastically worse than the CRT Trinitron, the input of which was a Philips Freeview box over SCART. FreeviewHD channels are superb. HD inputs are superb. DVD's upscaled are also superb.
If you mainly use your TV for SD terrestrial it's not worth it. If you use it for other purposes then it definitely is.
Off topic, but as I have the similar little 32" version as a second set, I can recommend a couple of things to try which may improve your SD viewing: - TV Sony KDL-40EX503
- Blu Ray player Sony BDP-S370
- XBox 360
- Some Blu-Ray films and a game
- Cables
Standard Definition terrestrial pictures are drastically worse than the CRT Trinitron, the input of which was a Philips Freeview box over SCART. FreeviewHD channels are superb. HD inputs are superb. DVD's upscaled are also superb.
If you mainly use your TV for SD terrestrial it's not worth it. If you use it for other purposes then it definitely is.
While viewing an SD channel find the setting Home/settings/display/screen and change 'Display area' to '+1'. This will correctly size the image for the screen for SD viewing (note that when you change to a HD channel that this setting can be different) for the least overscan, making the picture slightly sharper. Also I'd recommend setting up your 'General' setting in the scene menu to be a copy of the 'Theatre' setting, but just increase the backlight setting to suit your room and ambient light. Generally not turning the backlight up full and turning off all the 'advanced' features makes quite a difference to all pictures IMHO. I found with these settings the SD picture is quite acceptable, though of course the HD channels do look better (I get my signal from Crystal Palace so I have access to the three Freeview HD channels on my 32EX703).
Also, don't futz around with the white balance controls unless you have a calibration sensor and software as you'll likely just make things worse.
Edited by OldSkoolRS on Monday 4th October 15:46
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