Prometheus - Ridley Scott's 'Alien Prequel' (or not)...

[AshVX220]

tankplanker said:

hat I liked from that review is that they said it made Alien and Prometheus worse with the lore changes. I have seen the rumours around the changes made in the new film and I have to agree that if they are true I am not that impressed with the choices made by Ridley.

Ridley Scott seems to be the new George Lucas, cannot leave his most successful franchise alone and in the process manages to completely fk it up. Like George, probably because he thinks he know it all and has forgotten how much he relied on other peoples creativity to begin with.

[Venturist]

AshVX220 said:

Ridley Scott seems to be the new George Lucas, cannot leave his most successful franchise alone and in the process manages to completely fk it up. Like George, probably because he thinks he know it all and has forgotten how much he relied on other peoples creativity to begin with.

Or were the good bits always a happy fluke and it was going to be st all along?
The Alien franchise may be one of those things where, like the original film, it's good because your imagination is forced to fill in the gaps. The known is never as interesting as the unknown.

[Moonhawk]

tankplanker said:

I re watched Alien for the same reason on the weekend, John Hurt's character was just as stupid once he fell under the safety beam in the Engineers' ship, you could say that the scientists in Promethus are just following Hurt's example.

I suppose the thing about Alien was that the crew were completely unprepared for what they found and it came across in their actions (not to mention Ash who was a company plant with ulterior motives who helped steer the crew down the wrong path). They just had no idea what to expect - and being essentially space truckers, were ill equipped to deal with the situation.

In Prometheus however - the scientists were walking into a situation they had a very good idea would involve alien contact/artifacts etc. The fact that they not only ignored their own safety - but completely disregarded any attempt to preserve or avoid contamination of the find was utterly ridiculous under the circumstances.

[LimaDelta]

popeyewhite said:

There is a world of difference between the kind of self-awareness you describe, and empathy. To be truly empathetic you need to be able to perceive the situation from the other person's perspective. I can't see how this would work with dogs -

"You're a bit grumpy"
"I've just had a root canal at the dentist"
"Oh poor you, are you in pain?"
"Well I'm a bit groggy from the pain relief"
"I've had root canal myself, you have my sympathy"

woof woof!

I don't believe I mentioned empathy anywhere in my post?

Anyway, this is getting further from the original topic...

[tankplanker]

Moonhawk said:

tankplanker said:

I re watched Alien for the same reason on the weekend, John Hurt's character was just as stupid once he fell under the safety beam in the Engineers' ship, you could say that the scientists in Promethus are just following Hurt's example.

I suppose the thing about Alien was that the crew were completely unprepared for what they found and it came across in their actions (not to mention Ash who was a company plant with ulterior motives who helped steer the crew down the wrong path). They just had no idea what to expect - and being essentially space truckers, were ill equipped to deal with the situation.

In Prometheus however - the scientists were walking into a situation they had a very good idea would involve alien contact/artifacts etc. The fact that they not only ignored their own safety - but completely disregarded any attempt to preserve or avoid contamination of the find was utterly ridiculous under the circumstances.

I would have expected the team in Alien to have been given strict protocols (which could have been shared just as they were to Ash) to follow, if the team had died then WY would have sent follow up teams and wanted the site preserved (what if the remaining crew had bombed the site with a lander?). With how worried the crew members are over losing their share of any find it would have been easy to enforce the crew to stick to these protocols. The breach into the ship with the face hugger was Ash just following WY orders, so deliberate sabotage rather than incompetence.

All of Prometheus is just stupid from the moment they hit the planet, but the entire plot of Alien still hinges on Hurt making that first stupid mistake, which is up there with the black snake scene from Prometheus.

I remember watching a documentary about the making of Alien, the main cast stated that Ridley wasn't really interested in directing the cast and was more interested in the world building (much like Lucas), which is frankly some of the best bits of Alien, for example: https://typesetinthefuture.com/2014/12/01/alien/

Ridley was lucky that the cast were good enough to carry the film without direction and that the core script was good enough to stand on its own legs.

[popeyewhite]

LimaDelta said:

I don't believe I mentioned empathy anywhere in my post?

Ok, well I'll tidy up a bit, you said

LimaDelta said:

It is proven that humans are not the only creatures who are self aware.

No, it is most definitely not! There is a whole lot more to self-awareness than recognising yourself in a mirror....

LimaDelta said:

Put a coloured dot on a chimp's head and show them in a mirror and they will reach up to remove it. They know the chimp in the mirror is them, and not another chimp.

..and that means these chimps are conscious of their own feelings, character, actions and impact of these actions on others?

Apologies, as you say - a tad off topic!

[alanwul]

Lance Catamaran said:

80% on RT at the moment so most critics don't see it as a disappointment

A lot of films start with a high score on RT and IMDB but then slowly but surely that initial good score slides away.

[p1stonhead]

Venturist said:

AshVX220 said:

Ridley Scott seems to be the new George Lucas, cannot leave his most successful franchise alone and in the process manages to completely fk it up. Like George, probably because he thinks he know it all and has forgotten how much he relied on other peoples creativity to begin with.

Or were the good bits always a happy fluke and it was going to be st all along?
The Alien franchise may be one of those things where, like the original film, it's good because your imagination is forced to fill in the gaps. The known is never as interesting as the unknown.

I'm genuinely interested if Alien would actually be seen as any good these days if it came out. Would it be too slow for modern audiences? I'm not sure it would garner critical acclaim.

[Patrick Bateman]

Are people quick to forget that of 'the franchise' he had only directed one film until Prometheus?

And on the too slow for modern audiences front, many of the most highly acclaimed films now are still very slow.

[Moonhawk]

p1stonhead said:

I'm genuinely interested if Alien would actually be seen as any good these days if it came out. Would it be too slow for modern audiences? I'm not sure it would garner critical acclaim.

I don't know - a lot of films these days seem to cram far too much in.

The genius of movies like Alien and Jaws etc was often borne of what was not said or not shown. Sometimes a few well placed moments of silence in a movie can say far more than half a page of inane dialoge or a plethora of explosions.

Edited by Moonhawk on Monday 8th May 20:23

[honest_delboy]

alanwul said:

Lance Catamaran said:

80% on RT at the moment so most critics don't see it as a disappointment

A lot of films start with a high score on RT and IMDB but then slowly but surely that initial good score slides away.

Is this because critics that see the preview screening are too scared to write a bad review in case they don't get invited back ?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the Guardian writer might be right (read in Vasquez's voice) , the trailer does have a whiff of "new star wars" about it (re-hash of the good bits from the old movies + 25% new stuff). I still hope against (hadley's) hope that its better than Prometheus.

[Madness60]

honest_delboy said:

Is this because critics that see the preview screening are too scared to write a bad review in case they don't get invited back ?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the Guardian writer might be right (read in Vasquez's voice) , the trailer does have a whiff of "new star wars" about it (re-hash of the good bits from the old movies + 25% new stuff). I still hope against (hadley's) hope that its better than Prometheus.

Prometheus had a lot of poor reviews, I don't remember any 5 star ones. A lot of disappointment after a great build up. It may be a bit of a rehash but if its well done then I'd be happy to see people turn up, find alien/s, run, deaths, more running, plans to nuke the entire site from orbit, alien cunning, deaths - its Alien!

[Lance Catamaran]

tankplanker said:

Moonhawk said:

tankplanker said:

I re watched Alien for the same reason on the weekend, John Hurt's character was just as stupid once he fell under the safety beam in the Engineers' ship, you could say that the scientists in Promethus are just following Hurt's example.

I suppose the thing about Alien was that the crew were completely unprepared for what they found and it came across in their actions (not to mention Ash who was a company plant with ulterior motives who helped steer the crew down the wrong path). They just had no idea what to expect - and being essentially space truckers, were ill equipped to deal with the situation.

In Prometheus however - the scientists were walking into a situation they had a very good idea would involve alien contact/artifacts etc. The fact that they not only ignored their own safety - but completely disregarded any attempt to preserve or avoid contamination of the find was utterly ridiculous under the circumstances.

I would have expected the team in Alien to have been given strict protocols (which could have been shared just as they were to Ash) to follow, if the team had died then WY would have sent follow up teams and wanted the site preserved (what if the remaining crew had bombed the site with a lander?). With how worried the crew members are over losing their share of any find it would have been easy to enforce the crew to stick to these protocols. The breach into the ship with the face hugger was Ash just following WY orders, so deliberate sabotage rather than incompetence.

All of Prometheus is just stupid from the moment they hit the planet, but the entire plot of Alien still hinges on Hurt making that first stupid mistake, which is up there with the black snake scene from Prometheus.

I remember watching a documentary about the making of Alien, the main cast stated that Ridley wasn't really interested in directing the cast and was more interested in the world building (much like Lucas), which is frankly some of the best bits of Alien, for example: https://typesetinthefuture.com/2014/12/01/alien/

Ridley was lucky that the cast were good enough to carry the film without direction and that the core script was good enough to stand on its own legs.

At least the egg is somewhat believable - if you see something opening your instinct is to look inside it, especially if all prior indications were that there was no life. If you saw something that looked like an eyeless cobra rising out of black goo, no one's first instinct would be to reach out and pet it. Plus they somehow got lost after mapping out the whole ship in the last scene. If they'd filmed a bit where the animals seemed harmless beforehand it would make sense, but whilst I still don't think it's a bad film that scene is monumentally dumb

[Patrick Bateman]

As much as I can happily overlook the more daft moments and still love the film, there's a highly regarded 'Agent 9' fan edit that I'm trying to get a hold of that apparently sorts out a few of the more daft issues.

[Halb]

popeyewhite said:

Halb said:

Saying sample a is 'purely human' is a human centric view of nature, but common. We don't know yet, there are other animals that may be self-aware,

Self-awareness is quite different from true empathy and morals, which are both learnt. A creature does not have to be self-aware to show a what you might call empathy.

Yeah, I agree with that. It's not all on a binary line.

[Halb]

Most modern action films are st, but basically video games wit a whiff of hint at plot or characterisation.
I'm sure RLM has chatted about when the change slowly occurred.

[Don]

Moonhawk said:

https://typesetinthefuture.com/2014/12/01/alien/

Thanks for posting that. I have just happily pissed away my entire lunch hour. Nice.

[otolith]

p1stonhead said:

I'm genuinely interested if Alien would actually be seen as any good these days if it came out. Would it be too slow for modern audiences? I'm not sure it would garner critical acclaim.

Would they get immersed in the film, or spend the whole time looking for plot holes to show people how smart they are?

[Halb]

The films that pass the test of time, reward repeat viewings, require repeat viewings, allow people to suspend disbelief willingly, generate love/interest for sequels and indeed franchises, become classics in their genre or even iconic, generally don't have large plot holes, maybe some quibbles, but not anything a line of dialogue could resolve. Many an effects 'heavy' film from yesteryear were constructed with plot/character first, and the other stuff bolted on later; great examples being Jaws, Star Wars, the Thing and ALien. There's a reason these films from decades ago spawn endless remakes now. Films from today have is ass backwards, they start with cgi and try and muddle through a story written by consensus, committee, demographics and polls. Star Wars prequels and Prometheus being fine examples of the latter.

[p1stonhead]

Halb said:

The films that pass the test of time, reward repeat viewings, require repeat viewings, allow people to suspend disbelief willingly, generate love/interest for sequels and indeed franchises, become classics in their genre or even iconic, generally don't have large plot holes, maybe some quibbles, but not anything a line of dialogue could resolve. Many an effects 'heavy' film from yesteryear were constructed with plot/character first, and the other stuff bolted on later; great examples being Jaws, Star Wars, the Thing and ALien. There's a reason these films from decades ago spawn endless remakes now. Films from today have is ass backwards, they start with cgi and try and muddle through a story written by consensus, committee, demographics and polls. Star Wars prequels and Prometheus being fine examples of the latter.

Arguably the best horror sci-fi ever IMO. Still keeps me on the edge of my seat and wholly engaged throughout.

This doesnt look like it will but lets see....