Oi! Derren Brown! NO!

[carmonk]

I happened to switch on to a repeat of 'Fool Us', where magicians attempt to fool Penn and Teller with a routine or trick and if Penn and Teller can't guess how they did it, the magicians wins. One guy went down the Derren Brown 'psychology' route, allegedly hypnotising Jonathan Woss into seeing a 10 of hearts on an apparently blank playing card. P&T very quickly deduced that it was a trick pack of cards, essentially sleight of hand. Penn then forcefully made the statement (paraphrased, as I can't remember it all) - 'I just want to make the point that these tricks are NOT done by hypnotism or psychology, whatever people may tell you. That's all bullst. Absolute bullst!" So I'm wondering which DB supporters on this thread know more about magic than Penn Jilette

Edited by carmonk on Monday 28th November 12:56

[carmonk]

Melvin Udall said:

carmonk said:

I happened to switch on to a repeat of 'Fool Us', where magicians attempt to fool Penn and Teller with a routine or trick and if Penn and Teller can't guess how they did it, the magicians wins. One guy went down the Derren Brown 'psychology' route, allegedly hypnotising Jonathan Woss into seeing a 10 of hearts on an apparently blank playing card. P&T very quickly deduced that it was a trick pack of cards, essentially sleight of hand. Penn then forcefully made the statement (paraphrased, as I can't remember it all) - 'I just want to make the point that these tricks are NOT done by hypnotism or psychology, whatever people may tell you. That's all bullst. Absolute bullst!" So I'm wondering which DB supporters on this thread know more about magic than Penn Jilette

Edited by carmonk on Monday 28th November 12:56

Because, like that chap, it's part of the act. He is, after all, an illusionist.

But it's not part of his act (and he wasn't performing, merely on judging). It doesn't benefit his own act to say psychology and hypnotism is bullst, and I've never heard him discredit other methodologies (apart from woo).

[carmonk]

durbster said:

carmonk said:

But it's not part of his act (and he wasn't performing, merely on judging). It doesn't benefit his own act to say psychology and hypnotism is bullst, and I've never heard him discredit other methodologies (apart from woo).

I didn't see it (magic shows bore the hell out of me ) but I seriously doubt Penn said that psychology was bullst.

He absolutely did. He said that psychology and hypnotism as an explanation for tricks is bullst. He appeared quite angry about it, understandably so. Had a look online and can't find it as I don't know the episode but maybe someone else can find it. I only saw that one act so I don't know what else was on unfortunately.

durbster said:

If you think that then there's really not much discussion to be had. Nobody's claiming that everything Brown does uses psychology or hypnotism. All I'm saying is that it's one part of his game. The wallet trick I put forward earlier is a nice example of it; card tricks are obviously not.

I don't want to go over old ground but IMO the only psychology DB uses is getting his audience to believe in his explanations. The card trick in the 'Fool Us' wasn't presented as a card trick, it was presented as the magician using 'suggestion' to get Woss to see something that wasn't there, just like DB does.

[carmonk]

erdnase said:

carmonk said:

But whilst we're at it, I find it suspicious that you just happened to browsing a forum you've never posted on before, whilst looking for 'something else', less than 24 hours after the programme you were involved with was aired, and just happen to see this thread. That seems more in keeping with PR back office work, like many companies that trawl the net to gauge feedback of their products or services.

No sign of Frederick after this post? Hmm

Funny that, eh?

[carmonk]

cazzer said:

Ordered my turkey of Wayne the Butcher at weekend.

I asked him "How you dealing with being famous"
In his own special way he said....

"Some dheads want fking signed photos, I'm a fking butcher"

But he did say that "It was only 5k ffs"
Which does sort of bely that 1k was his "life savings"

I'll be passing soon so I'll drop in and ask for a signed photo...

cazzer said:

But he also said "I haven't a bloody clue how he did it"

None of us know how he did it, but we all know how he didn't do it - by hypnosis or psychology.

[carmonk]

erdnase said:

durbster said:

And in my opinion, the wallet on the ground is a perfect example of him using a psychology trick, proving it is part of his arsenal.

I think I remember Derren doing two wallet type tricks - one was the wallet in the street with a yellow circle painted around it, and the other one was using his jedi mind tricks to have a guy hand over his wallet?

I'm sure the wallet in the yellow circle relied on a degree to psychology, and most likely a bit of favourable editing too.

Yep, 90% editing, 10% psychology in that the odd person will think, "Ah, there's a line around that wallet, it must be a trick."

erdnase said:

All magicians have "psychology" in their arsenal, from misdirection, cleverly worded phrases and exploitation of human tendancies in order to baffle us. It doesn't mean they're always using it, or that it's the default explanation when we can't come up with how the magician performed the trick. I'm sure it's in the mix, though.

Oh, while I'm remembering - does anyone recall that trick that kinda made people talk about Derren? It was phoning up public payphones and causing the person to fall asleep. I'm prepared to believe the people answering the phone weren't stooges, but I'm not buying the hypnosis explanation either.

I'm sure of we could hear what Derren said over the phone, we'd think "Aah, that's clever". I suspect it's something a little more sophisticated than "You're being filmed for a TV show, and if you play along, you'll be on tv"

I agree. I reckon it would be, "You're being filmed for a TV show, and if you play along, you'll be on tv and get £50"

I remember one when DB stared out of a window at someone and we were told that the power of his gaze caused the person to turn around. Hyuk! Hyuk! We're idiots! We'll believe that!

[carmonk]

durbster said:

carmonk said:

erdnase said:

durbster said:

And in my opinion, the wallet on the ground is a perfect example of him using a psychology trick, proving it is part of his arsenal.

I think I remember Derren doing two wallet type tricks - one was the wallet in the street with a yellow circle painted around it, and the other one was using his jedi mind tricks to have a guy hand over his wallet?

I'm sure the wallet in the yellow circle relied on a degree to psychology, and most likely a bit of favourable editing too.

Yep, 90% editing, 10% psychology in that the odd person will think, "Ah, there's a line around that wallet, it must be a trick."

I work in video production. I know how easy it would be to set that up, but I also have enough imagination to see how it works as a psychology trick? I am enjoying your complete ignorance of the other video where somebody recreated the trick successfully btw. Convenient

Not really, it's been pointed out more than once that the video was not a single take and was comprised of several edited sections.

durbster said:

When I was at Uni, we put a sign up at the bottom of the stairs saying, "out of order". We didn't think anybody would pay attention, I mean how can stairs be "out of order", and yet almost everyone looked at it, thought for a minute and went elsewhere. That was exactly the same trick, played in a different way. It just exploits our acceptance of authority.

I wouldn't walk up the stairs if there was another way. There could be something spilled on them or they're being repainted or whatever. I wouldn't stand there pondering the likelihood of a workman not expressing themselves with perfect grammar, I'd just take another route. In the same way a person might look at a wallet with a circle round it and think, Hmm, obviously someone's playing a trick, and leave it. Hardly cutting edge psychology and not even slightly representative of the outrageous credit DB expects us to give it.

durbster said:

Have you ever seen a show called The Real Hustle? That also relies heavily on psychology to affect people's behaviour. Some of Brown's tricks are exactly the same.

Haven't seen it, but I presume you can prove that's all un-edited and precisely as described?